Taim is not Moridin

[Owayn The Traveller]

He could just be wearing heals. I have to admit I never noticed that about Taim but I have to say what Heron Fist said does make a some sense. Whose PoV was the thoughts on Taim's height from?

[Duskfire]

I think that Ta'veren's threads in the Pattern are like Lightouses. Even during tempests, you could spot them if you are not to far away. With a little careful search, I think it should be possible to find them in quite a short time. What seems strange to me in Taim's case, is how did he find Rand in Dumai's Wells? And why does he say they have to xait before making Gateways? Only nine Asha'man dead, and I find it hard to believe that those were the Travellers.

 

RJ explains that somewhere. Basically, Taim is a suspicious bugger and has eyes and ears everywhere. With all the action obviously going on with Perrin and Dobraines army leaving and whatnot, it didn't take long for Taim to figure something was up and to have them followed.

 

Also, Graendal pointed out in KoD that finding ta`veren now was alot harder because the Pattern was in constant flux. I suppose that doens't rule out being able to find the anyway, just requires concentration.

 

[Asgard Thorin]

Of course he isn't, he's Damandred. That's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. By now, there can surely be no doubt.

But RJ said, unequivocablly said, Taim was not Demandred, yoniy0. Yhat, along with Sammael being dead, were the only two straight-forward things he said (that I remember.)

[OptimusPrime]

Taim is not Moridin in my view. The whole height issue and not looking at all similiar to Moridin. Greandhal in tGS claims that Moridin looks a lot in fact like Rand. Now Taim doesn't look at all like Rand and I also believe there is a height difference aswell. Another item would be the different colour eyes.

 

There actually isn't much of a height difference between Taim and Rand - at least, not anymore. In Winter's Heart Taim is described as "nearly as tall as Rand," so I don't think there's an issue regarding the height difference between Rand/Moridin/Taim.

 

What most interesting to me is that Taim was originally described as being "of slightly above average height" in Lord of Chaos (quotes regarding his height taken from The Thirteenth Depository). Going from "slightly above average" to "nearly as tall as Rand" is quite the change, as I think we can all agree that Rand is much taller than average. I've not found anything online that tries to explain the difference in height yet--does anyone have any ideas (forgive me if this has been discussed and I missed it)?

 

One item though leads me to believe they are not in fact the same person but two different blokes and not even wrking together. If Taim is Moridin how is it that he is chomping at the bit to find out where Rand is in either  Crossroads or Knife of Dreams or both. If he was Moridin surely he could track him by his ta'varen effect on the pattern. The same way that Lanfear could find him and it is a method I believe that Moridin as Ishamel used before?

 

Hasn't it been theorized that with so much chaos in the pattern, and the very fabric of the pattern beginning to unravel, that it's very difficult/impossible to track ta'veren as before?

 

I think its just a matter of the Darkfriends around Rand have had to be with him almost indefinitely. Did we ever find out if Moridin knew of Semirhages plan to meet Rand as the DotNM? If he did, this would portray that Moridin was beginning to find Rand through Semirhage through Elza and co. Rand does Travel around a heck of a lot, so its understandable that the bad guys cant find him, whoever they are, if the Darkfriends with him are with him constantly. The Dark dont use T'A'R like they should. Note that Moridin and Taim both voiced extreme orders of death and permission to kill only after Rand announced the Cleansing. IMO their orders are not that contradictory if you were to imagine Moridin showing some real acting and manipulation skills.

 

Regarding the finding Ta'veren trick, this is how I think Taim found Rand at Dumais Wells, which I took as another sign of the Moridin thing.

 

I think Ive not much of a right to post in here, so sorry if this is an intrusion

[KefkaPalazzo]

I agree here. Taim is his own man. I know he's a DF. It would seem like a serious retcon to make him anything but one. But beyond that, there are several side theories regarding him as a DF. Was he 13x13'd? BS has said that the 13x13 thing was "a gun on the mantel", meaning that it hasn't been forgotten. He went on to say that Taim was "never a very nice guy," though.

 

Personally I subscribe to the "New Forsaken" theory. I think that he's been given the Forsaken mark, and is the one who sent the Trollocs through the Ways in KOD. Aginor is dead. So is Asmodean. And Rahvin. Along with Balthamel, Be'lal and Sammael. The only two remaining are Demandred and Moridin. Moridin is ruled out. He interrogates the others about it, meaning he doesn't know. Demandred is likely employing Slayer. (See the WOTFAQ for more about that) I don't think he did both because the Forsaken know that Trollocs are cannon fodder and almost completely useless against him. Slayer is a genuine threat, if for no other reason than Rand doesn''t know about him. The only person who would know not to waste the Trollocs on him is someone who does not know how much power Rand has accumulated.

 

Taim hasn't seen him since book 6, when a quarter million (it WAS 250k, right) Trollocs would have been a genuine threat.

[The Fisher King]

There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility that Taim could be in fact the big cheese himself, Moridin that is.

 

Taim is not Moridin in my view. The whole height issue and not looking at all similiar to Moridin. Greandhal in tGS claims that Moridin looks a lot in fact like Rand. Now Taim doesn't look at all like Rand and I also believe there is a height difference aswell. Another item would be the different colour eyes.

 

All of these reasons are just phyiscal reasons why and their has been talk of apperances being altered by the use of the power both the one power and the true power. Which in all fairness could be viable, just.

 

One item though leads me to believe they are not in fact the same person but two different blokes and not even wrking together. If Taim is Moridin how is it that he is chomping at the bit to find out where Rand is in either  Crossroads or Knife of Dreams or both. If he was Moridin surely he could track him by his ta'varen effect on the pattern. The same way that Lanfear could find him and it is a method I believe that Moridin as Ishamel used before?

 

There is other reasons like contradicting orders from both on Rand to the rebel Asha'man in Winters Heart.

 

 

Sorry if this thread is one too many on this topic.

 

OTT...Youre Silly :)

 

 

Fish

[Dagon Thyne]

It is actually impossible for Taim and Moridin to be the same person......Moridin did not exist until after Rand killed Ishmael.....The DO can't bring someone back who is still active in the pattern.....

[Owayn The Traveller]

There has been a lot of discussion about the possibility that Taim could be in fact the big cheese himself, Moridin that is.

 

Taim is not Moridin in my view. The whole height issue and not looking at all similiar to Moridin. Greandhal in tGS claims that Moridin looks a lot in fact like Rand. Now Taim doesn't look at all like Rand and I also believe there is a height difference aswell. Another item would be the different colour eyes.

 

All of these reasons are just phyiscal reasons why and their has been talk of apperances being altered by the use of the power both the one power and the true power. Which in all fairness could be viable, just.

 

One item though leads me to believe they are not in fact the same person but two different blokes and not even wrking together. If Taim is Moridin how is it that he is chomping at the bit to find out where Rand is in either  Crossroads or Knife of Dreams or both. If he was Moridin surely he could track him by his ta'varen effect on the pattern. The same way that Lanfear could find him and it is a method I believe that Moridin as Ishamel used before?

 

There is other reasons like contradicting orders from both on Rand to the rebel Asha'man in Winters Heart.

 

 

Sorry if this thread is one too many on this topic.

 

OTT...Youre Silly :)

 

 

I'm insulted Fish, you've wounded deeply.

 

 

Fish

[Lynchgrinch]

Agreed, i'll say what i've said before.

 

Taim, is just Taim.

 

everyone who think's he's someone else is reading into the story way too much, just looking for tidbits, like tiny continuity errors to do with Taims hight FOR EXAMPLE. RJ would not give the hints in such a small way, there is nothing that is even realy semi-obvious IMO to make Taim seem like Moridin, i even laughed when i heard of this theory. Taim is just Taim.

 

Taim is just a very interesting character who looks like he's probably gonna turn out to be a Darkfriend, but might not...and then his character will just become RIDDICULOUSLY interesting.

[Mr Ares]

On the issue of the taint weakening barriers between lives, it doesn't do that, as far as we have been told. What we have been told about what the taint does is that it causes your body to rot, and that it causes madness. It doesn't cause any specific form of madness, just a general destabilisation of the mind that might manifest in many forms - those forms being conditions that could exist without the taint. So any weakening of barriers between lives can only be attributed to the taint indirectly - it could still happen without the taint, the taint just helped get things moving. Hence how Semi is aware of the condition - such cases were known in the AoL, even before the taint. So if Taim is hearing voices from a past life, which is doubtful, it is not so much the taint as it is a form of madness.

[metaphor]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box.

Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

[Dagon Thyne]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box.

Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

 

 

Not possible...taim has no link to the dark one...all of the suriving male forsaken were given links to protect them from the taint and allow them access to the true power whenever the DO allows it...

 

Plus rand would have recognized him....LTT was the leader of all Aes Sedai in the AoL there would not be a powerful forsaken that Rand did not know through LTT....

[Lord_Mat]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box. Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

Mummy i want a jack in a box forsaken for Christmas.

 

Anyway Rand wouldn't be able to recognize him if he was using that appearance weave. I think that Taim is Taim and he isn't a dark friend. He's more of a overly obsessive person in need of some attention.

[Sharaman]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box. Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

Mummy i want a jack in a box forsaken for Christmas.

 

Anyway Rand wouldn't be able to recognize him if he was using that appearance weave. I think that Taim is Taim and he isn't a dark friend. He's more of a overly obsessive person in need of some attention.

Rand has seen Taim physically touched (and touching other people) far too many times for Taim to be safely using an "appearance weave". Any theory that Taim doesn't actually look like Taim has to go into far more complicated routines such as him having a Slayer-like ability to change appearance.

[graendalzooescapee]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box. Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

Mummy i want a jack in a box forsaken for Christmas.

 

Anyway Rand wouldn't be able to recognize him if he was using that appearance weave. I think that Taim is Taim and he isn't a dark friend. He's more of a overly obsessive person in need of some attention.

Rand has seen Taim physically touched (and touching other people) far too many times for Taim to be safely using an "appearance weave". Any theory that Taim doesn't actually look like Taim has to go into far more complicated routines such as him having a Slayer-like ability to change appearance.

 

OK, so this isn't my looney Taim theory, it's my husband's, and he's a newbie and a convert and this is his first theory so be nice (he's too swamped with work to write it up):

 

Taim is the real Nae'blis, and Moridin is a front. (Rather like Omerna was a front for Balwer).

 

Evidence:

Taim is, somehow, an AOL person. No-one not from the AOL would refer to "so-called Aiel", or be able to immediately associate Traveling with gateways. Just because we've eliminated obvious suspects doesn't make those passages go away. There's also something wonky about his age. He must be a sparker, because of his strength in the Power, but a sparker who looks 35 would have to be at least 100 (see Taim in the WOTFAQ).

 

Taim has exceptional knowledge of DF cells throughout Randland; this is the only way he could recruit enough DFs so that all his full Asha'man are DFs. How many non-Forsaken DFs even know of other cells?

 

Taim can channel the TP. Found on the Warp in the Air thread:

 

"Taim strode in the room as tough he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue and gold dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rands arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warders deadly grace, but shadows seem to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violencethat seemed palpable enough to soak up light" (WH)

 

Sounds very much like Rand's mild TP use symptoms.

 

Taim has never been anything but effective in his service to the DO. You can't say this of Ishamael/Moridin despite the ideological commitment--he failed three times in the first three books.

 

Further development of theory:

 

Taim was a member of the Hundred Companions who secretly betrayed the project to the Darkside, making the Taint possible. The DO kept hold of him (unnatural rebirth, perhaps?) to use in a future war. This is why LTT is obsessed with killing Taim and those trained by him.

 

Major sticking points: Nothing like this in "Strike at Shayol Ghul"--but if it's meant to be a big reveal, there wouldn't be.

Why didn't Taim try to stop the Taint-Cleansing Project?

[Mr Ares]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box. Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

Mummy i want a jack in a box forsaken for Christmas.

 

Anyway Rand wouldn't be able to recognize him if he was using that appearance weave. I think that Taim is Taim and he isn't a dark friend. He's more of a overly obsessive person in need of some attention.

Rand has seen Taim physically touched (and touching other people) far too many times for Taim to be safely using an "appearance weave". Any theory that Taim doesn't actually look like Taim has to go into far more complicated routines such as him having a Slayer-like ability to change appearance.

 

OK, so this isn't my looney Taim theory, it's my husband's, and he's a newbie and a convert and this is his first theory so be nice (he's too swamped with work to write it up):

 

Taim is the real Nae'blis, and Moridin is a front. (Rather like Omerna was a front for Balwer).

 

Evidence:

Taim is, somehow, an AOL person. No-one not from the AOL would refer to "so-called Aiel", or be able to immediately associate Traveling with gateways. Just because we've eliminated obvious suspects doesn't make those passages go away. There's also something wonky about his age. He must be a sparker, because of his strength in the Power, but a sparker who looks 35 would have to be at least 100 (see Taim in the WOTFAQ).

Strictly speaking, Taim being an AoL person isn't evidence, it is conjecture. There is evidence which could be interpreted as supporting it, the "so-called Aiel" comment and knowledge of Travelling, as you mention, however an alternative theory does exist: that Taim is a Third Ager who was taught by someone from the AOL, most probably Ishamael (we know Ishy was active before the start of the series, so it is quite possible he did some sort of recruitment). There might be other explanations as well. However, your husband's belief that he must be a sparker due to strength is dubious - we know Sharina is a learner, and she has a potential higher than Nynaeve's, so we don't know how of any strength cap on learners separate from that of sparkers. Further, RJ has commented on Taim's age. He is in his late twenties, Rand overestimated his age due to the hardships of Taim's flight to Caemlyn.

 

Taim has exceptional knowledge of DF cells throughout Randland; this is the only way he could recruit enough DFs so that all his full Asha'man are DFs. How many non-Forsaken DFs even know of other cells?

Taim could be given knowledge of Darkfriends by one of the Chosen. We also know that DFs have signs to recognise one another - simply give these signs to any recruits. It won't mean anything to those who aren't Shadowsworn, but they will to those who are. Thirdly, Taim could be actively recruiting - give people the chance to progress further, learn new weaves, become a full Asha'man, be protected from the taint (at least prior to the end of book 9). All things which could be used to tempt someone to the dark side. And if they decide it's not worth joining the shadow for, once you've been revealed? Well, another loss in training won't be noticed. "He went crazy in the night."

 

Taim can channel the TP. Found on the Warp in the Air thread:

 

"Taim strode in the room as tough he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue and gold dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rands arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warders deadly grace, but shadows seem to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violencethat seemed palpable enough to soak up light" (WH)

 

Sounds very much like Rand's mild TP use symptoms.

That could be indicative of TP use, but the TP needn't be restricted to the nae'blis. It has been available to others in the past, and Moridin certainly has the use of it, so Taim haveing it as well wouldn't be indicative of him having a higher status.

 

Taim has never been anything but effective in his service to the DO. You can't say this of Ishamael/Moridin despite the ideological commitment--he failed three times in the first three books.

 

Further development of theory:

 

Taim was a member of the Hundred Companions who secretly betrayed the project to the Darkside, making the Taint possible. The DO kept hold of him (unnatural rebirth, perhaps?) to use in a future war. This is why LTT is obsessed with killing Taim and those trained by him.

 

Major sticking points: Nothing like this in "Strike at Shayol Ghul"--but if it's meant to be a big reveal, there wouldn't be.

Why didn't Taim try to stop the Taint-Cleansing Project?

Some interesting theorising, but not really any significant evidence to support the theory. I have certainly seen worse first efforts, though. A good try. Taim is certainly effective, and certainly has a couple of oddities about him that have yet to be explained, but saying that he is an AoL channeler, and that he is actually the nae'blis, is going a bit far, I think.

[jdbond]

Taim is Taim. Probably this Age's Demandred.And there is some kind of association between him and Moridin. I am pretty sure Rand taught Taim how to Travel.

[jdbond]

I think Taim could be some random forsaken popped out of a stasis box. Well, I don't really think it's be likely, but I would like it.

Mummy i want a jack in a box forsaken for Christmas.

 

Anyway Rand wouldn't be able to recognize him if he was using that appearance weave. I think that Taim is Taim and he isn't a dark friend. He's more of a overly obsessive person in need of some attention.

Rand has seen Taim physically touched (and touching other people) far too many times for Taim to be safely using an "appearance weave". Any theory that Taim doesn't actually look like Taim has to go into far more complicated routines such as him having a Slayer-like ability to change appearance.

 

OK, so this isn't my looney Taim theory, it's my husband's, and he's a newbie and a convert and this is his first theory so be nice (he's too swamped with work to write it up):

 

Taim is the real Nae'blis, and Moridin is a front. (Rather like Omerna was a front for Balwer).

 

Evidence:

Taim is, somehow, an AOL person. No-one not from the AOL would refer to "so-called Aiel", or be able to immediately associate Traveling with gateways. Just because we've eliminated obvious suspects doesn't make those passages go away. There's also something wonky about his age. He must be a sparker, because of his strength in the Power, but a sparker who looks 35 would have to be at least 100 (see Taim in the WOTFAQ).

 

Taim has exceptional knowledge of DF cells throughout Randland; this is the only way he could recruit enough DFs so that all his full Asha'man are DFs. How many non-Forsaken DFs even know of other cells?

 

Taim can channel the TP. Found on the Warp in the Air thread:

 

"Taim strode in the room as tough he owned the Palace. She did not need him named. Blue and gold dragons wove round the sleeves of his black coat from elbows to cuffs, in imitation of the Dragons on Rands arms. Though she suspected he would not appreciate the observation. He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a Warders deadly grace, but shadows seem to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violencethat seemed palpable enough to soak up light" (WH)

 

Sounds very much like Rand's mild TP use symptoms.

 

Taim has never been anything but effective in his service to the DO. You can't say this of Ishamael/Moridin despite the ideological commitment--he failed three times in the first three books.

 

Further development of theory:

 

Taim was a member of the Hundred Companions who secretly betrayed the project to the Darkside, making the Taint possible. The DO kept hold of him (unnatural rebirth, perhaps?) to use in a future war. This is why LTT is obsessed with killing Taim and those trained by him.

 

Major sticking points: Nothing like this in "Strike at Shayol Ghul"--but if it's meant to be a big reveal, there wouldn't be.

Why didn't Taim try to stop the Taint-Cleansing Project?

 

Too much over thinking, I think;) Things are generally much more simpler.

 

 

P.S: If Taim was ever someone LTT knew, Rand would have immediately recognized him.