Ishamael's past lives

[Vermillion]

Do you think he has past memories lives like Rand or does what he speak of the endless battle just part of his philosophy?

 

He seems to speak more of knowledge on the situation than he does of it just being philosophy.  I am sure as the DO's favorite he gets more insight.  You'd think the DO would explain what has happened the billion and one times he has failed and get the game plan going.  Of course, Ishamael is a true believer in the DO's plan and that may get him privileged access to info the others don't get.  I would like to see a one on one with Ishamael and the DO.

[Ban thBomm]

Ishamael/Moridin's a bit of an anomaly amongt the Forsaken, in that he seems to consistently put the Dark One's interests ahead of his own, whereas the others - some more than the rest - seem to favour action on behalf of the Great Lord primarily where there is personal advantage to be gained... for mine, it underlines why he's Nae'blis.

 

The fireside chat in tGS was for me, one of the most significant and revelatory moments of the series: Moridin's vision of the ramifications of the Dark One's ultimate victory (should it occur), combined with the dialogue he has with Rand, leads me to believe that his position is a philosophical one.  Especially given that Rand's previous memories are from a single past life, which occurred concurrently with the earlier life of Elan Morin Tedronai.

[Fains nose]

Maybe the DarkOne gave him insight into his past lives and that was how Rand realised his past lives. Maybe Ishamael just assumes he would of been smart enough to fight for the DO in all his past lives.

[OptimusPrime]

Ishamael/Moridin's a bit of an anomaly amongt the Forsaken, in that he seems to consistently put the Dark One's interests ahead of his own, whereas the others - some more than the rest - seem to favour action on behalf of the Great Lord primarily where there is personal advantage to be gained... for mine, it underlines why he's Nae'blis.

 

The fireside chat in tGS was for me, one of the most significant and revelatory moments of the series: Moridin's vision of the ramifications of the Dark One's ultimate victory (should it occur), combined with the dialogue he has with Rand, leads me to believe that his position is a philosophical one.  Especially given that Rand's previous memories are from a single past life, which occurred concurrently with the earlier life of Elan Morin Tedronai.

 

Rand remembers more than just Lews Therins lives in VoG. beyond that I agree with everything you said, I think Ishamaels actions have continuosly worked towards exactly what the Dark One wants, hence his Nae'blis title. I also think the Dark One only allows Moridin True Power access because there are payoffs for the Dark One if a particular person uses the True Power often enough, and only Ishamael has done that.

[Vermillion]

I am leaning towards his ego and the DO telling him somethings with his unique view on the world.  I was remembering a part where he questions how did Rand become the Fisher King.  It seems Stones is an old game passed down from the previous "Dragon" cycle or previous champion of light/DO event. 

 

Has anyone ever asked if the Fisher King the previous age of legend title of the champion of light or a incarnation of the soul?

[Shadow Rider]

Sorry I don't have a quote but didn't RJ say the Shadow can't spin souls out and the only way Ishamael could know past lives is from the Great Lord himself, who tells a lot of fibs.

[Vermillion]

Sorry I don't have a quote but didn't RJ say the Shadow can't spin souls out and the only way Ishamael could know past lives is from the Great Lord himself, who tells a lot of fibs.

 

But consider Rand and Ishy's souls are usually linked as well.  RJ quote on that somewhere.  It does seem to imply that they do have this battle over and over.

[Duskfire]

Sorry I don't have a quote but didn't RJ say the Shadow can't spin souls out and the only way Ishamael could know past lives is from the Great Lord himself, who tells a lot of fibs.

 

But consider Rand and Ishy's souls are usually linked as well.  RJ quote on that somewhere.  It does seem to imply that they do have this battle over and over.

 

RJ has also stated that no one is ever fated to be evil, it is a choice people make. Therefore, they can't be fated to battle against one another as that would go against the free choice apparent in the Pattern. For all we know, they could have been best friends in every previous age.

[Noreallyjustsomeguy]

But consider Rand and Ishy's souls are usually linked as well.  RJ quote on that somewhere.

 

Can we see that quote?  I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested because I've never seen it before ... and I really thought that when Ishamael said that, he was yanking Rand's chain.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sorry I don't have a quote but didn't RJ say the Shadow can't spin souls out and the only way Ishamael could know past lives is from the Great Lord himself, who tells a lot of fibs.

 

But consider Rand and Ishy's souls are usually linked as well.  RJ quote on that somewhere.  It does seem to imply that they do have this battle over and over.

 

RJ has also stated that no one is ever fated to be evil, it is a choice people make. Therefore, they can't be fated to battle against one another as that would go against the free choice apparent in the Pattern. For all we know, they could have been best friends in every previous age.

 

yeah, Duskfire has it here. the Shadow cant spin people out, only the pattern spins people out. Rand's soul is spun as the CoL figure, because the pattern needs a correcting mechanism. The Shadow people are just people who have turned on their own accord.

 

I have no idea where people are getting "Rand remembers other lives besides LTT", it could be true, but there is no indication, AFAIK, and i havent seen any Brandon quotes that suggest this, so its just speculation, nothing can be built upon that.

 

IMO, it is Ishamael's philosphy that lead him to believe this, or he is in some way a physical being of the DO creation (somehow), therefore not actually a real person. THe pattern does not spin out people specifically to be DF. Remember also that Ishamael is mad, he thinks he is the DO, (less so now as Moridin) but all this stuff happened when he was Ishamael. So I wouldnt trust his word too much.

 

 

[FarShainMael]

I have no idea where people are getting "Rand remembers other lives besides LTT", it could be true, but there is no indication, AFAIK, and i havent seen any Brandon quotes that suggest this, so its just speculation, nothing can be built upon that.

 

It's from VoG, p759 (UK h/b), the very moment of Rand's epiphany:

 

He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

 

 

(It's flaming difficult trying to type with one hand while balancing a huge book on your knee with the other...  :P  )

 

 

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I have no idea where people are getting "Rand remembers other lives besides LTT", it could be true, but there is no indication, AFAIK, and i havent seen any Brandon quotes that suggest this, so its just speculation, nothing can be built upon that.

 

It's from VoG, p759 (UK h/b), the very moment of Rand's epiphany:

 

He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.

 

 

(It's flaming difficult trying to type with one hand while balancing a huge book on your knee with the other...  :P  )

 

 

 

 

 

hahaha, well done, perhaps you have a Talent?  :P

 

Crap, I had not noticed that at all!! I will have to go back and read that one myself (I dont doubt you) its just my copy might be different or something.

 

WEll, thats crazy, Rand will be almost like a god with thousands of past memories.

 

Although, could that be something akin to the Rhuidean rings, where you see all this stuff then only have a vague recollection? He might have forgotten or something?

 

Anyway, thats fair enough, crazy stuff. All my other points i stand by though.

[FarShainMael]

Now if I could have held it up with flows of Air..  ;)

 

It will be fascinating to see just how much of those memories stay with him, and what effect that will have. We've seen the beginnings of his renewal, the peak of DM being bathed in light as the clouds roll back.

 

[Majsju]

Of course, it remains to be seen if Rand gets to actually keep all those memories, or if it was just then and there, because of the circumstances he could access them. I would not be surprised to see him come down from Dragonmount with only LTTs memories really left. I definitly would prefer that.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Of course, it remains to be seen if Rand gets to actually keep all those memories, or if it was just then and there, because of the circumstances he could access them. I would not be surprised to see him come down from Dragonmount with only LTTs memories really left. I definitly would prefer that.

 

yeah, i was thinking that also.

 

It would be kinda crappy and confusing to have that many memories. I dont see how it could really work. It would be a mix of thousands of ages, different world, technology, everything. In fact, having all that would make him more insane i would think

[Scaw]

Of course, it remains to be seen if Rand gets to actually keep all those memories, or if it was just then and there, because of the circumstances he could access them. I would not be surprised to see him come down from Dragonmount with only LTTs memories really left. I definitly would prefer that.

 

yeah, i was thinking that also.

 

It would be kinda crappy and confusing to have that many memories. I dont see how it could really work. It would be a mix of thousands of ages, different world, technology, everything. In fact, having all that would make him more insane i would think

Agreed. I assume that was a moment of revelation and it will pass.

 

Besides, we already have a character who remembers other lives: Mat. If we assume that roughly the same 'laws' apply to all characters regarding their memory than Rand would need to forget some of his own memories for him to possess those new memories. Of course it can be argued that Mat's situation is different because the Fox-people did this to Mat.

 

Nonetheless the memories could serve a purpose for Rand: they could be a source of do's and don'ts in defeating the DO.

 

But did he (Rand) not already have relevations that were like that? In Rhuidean?

[rew]

Brandon did say at one point (I remember reading this, but can't seem to find the quote right now..) about tGS that Rand is pretty much the equivalent of a demigod now...

As for the memories, my reading of the chapter had me thinking that he had reached some level similar to Enlightenment (Guru sitting on a mountain?) which was enabled/conditioned by the enormous amounts of Saidin that he was holding (which puts an interesting spin on what exactly the Power is....) and would subsequently have gone away, except for the realization and the knowledge that he gained from the experience, as he destroyed the CK and let go of the Source.  Thus, he won't "remember" all the lives that he lived, but he will remember what he learned from seeing them all in Dolby Surround Sound/IMAX. 

 

I would say that the Intergration with LTT will continue though, making him a much more powerful channeler and champion, with the full knowledge of everything AoL behind him.

[aunt_pol]

I remember when that happened to Belgarion, the moment of enlightenment... Made him a bit of a pain, for a wee while

 

;-)

[FarShainMael]

Of course, it remains to be seen if Rand gets to actually keep all those memories, or if it was just then and there, because of the circumstances he could access them. I would not be surprised to see him come down from Dragonmount with only LTTs memories really left. I definitly would prefer that.

 

yeah, i was thinking that also.

 

It would be kinda crappy and confusing to have that many memories. I dont see how it could really work. It would be a mix of thousands of ages, different world, technology, everything. In fact, having all that would make him more insane i would think

 

Birgitte seems to manage OK, though of course her memories are fading. Mat's 'added' memories don't seem to be driving him nuts either.

 

[Vermillion]

Sorry I don't have a quote but didn't RJ say the Shadow can't spin souls out and the only way Ishamael could know past lives is from the Great Lord himself, who tells a lot of fibs.

 

But consider Rand and Ishy's souls are usually linked as well.  RJ quote on that somewhere.  It does seem to imply that they do have this battle over and over.

 

RJ has also stated that no one is ever fated to be evil, it is a choice people make. Therefore, they can't be fated to battle against one another as that would go against the free choice apparent in the Pattern. For all we know, they could have been best friends in every previous age.

 

yeah, Duskfire has it here. the Shadow cant spin people out, only the pattern spins people out. Rand's soul is spun as the CoL figure, because the pattern needs a correcting mechanism. The Shadow people are just people who have turned on their own accord.

 

I have no idea where people are getting "Rand remembers other lives besides LTT", it could be true, but there is no indication, AFAIK, and i havent seen any Brandon quotes that suggest this, so its just speculation, nothing can be built upon that.

 

IMO, it is Ishamael's philosphy that lead him to believe this, or he is in some way a physical being of the DO creation (somehow), therefore not actually a real person. THe pattern does not spin out people specifically to be DF. Remember also that Ishamael is mad, he thinks he is the DO, (less so now as Moridin) but all this stuff happened when he was Ishamael. So I wouldnt trust his word too much.

 

 

 

Well, for all we know is that Ishamael could be a hero of the horn linked to Rand.  If Rand has recycled thousands of times, who knows how many times as CoL, he could be just tied to Rand no matter what the role is for or against.  Even Hawkwing has been for and against the "Dragon" by his own words. Rand does have ordinary lives or at least non-CoL lives from what RJ said. 

 

Just by the numbers if Ishy is tied to Rand for and against then he must have been against him a ton of times as well as for him.  Has nothing to do with the Shadow, it has everything to do with Rand and Ishy's link. 

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

Well, for all we know is that Ishamael could be a hero of the horn linked to Rand.  If Rand has recycled thousands of times, who knows how many times as CoL, he could be just tied to Rand no matter what the role is for or against.  Even Hawkwing has been for and against the "Dragon" by his own words. Rand does have ordinary lives or at least non-CoL lives from what RJ said. 

 

Just by the numbers if Ishy is tied to Rand for and against then he must have been against him a ton of times as well as for him.  Has nothing to do with the Shadow, it has everything to do with Rand and Ishy's link. 

 

Thats entirely possible. Yeah, Rand does have non CoL lives aswell, nothing to do with the Shadow. I see it as being a Gaidal/Birgitte thing. They are always linked together.

 

In any case, there is definitely something linking Rand and Ishmael (other than the Balefire link) sppose we will find out soon enough

[farthammer]

There's been a few times where we see Ishamael is surprised at something he sees, and in particular he has acknowledged historical ignorance of a few things he has deemed important to know.  It really pissed him off, thinking to himself he has a right to all knowledge.  I thought that was odd because he is serving an immortal entity that would seem to know all kinds of relevant details of the infinite past, yet we don't really see any notion of him trying to obtain that knowledge.  Why place one of your underlings above all earthly servants without arming him with information, or at the least provide some upon request?