The Mysteries of Cyndane

[Thor]

We can assume siuan before stilling to be approximately the same strength as Moiraine.

 

Using one of the strongest angreals from the tower, Moiraine was still pretty easily dismissed by a rotting Aginor. (Lan said her pride was hurt, you wonder why she didn't balefire, maybe she didn't have time to form the weaves)

 

A weak angreal, such as the smiling woman that Elayne has, can more than double a channeler's strength. Therefore Moiraine's angreal must have been able to triple or even quadruple her strength.

 

Lets say Aginor is strength 99, just weaker in effectiveness to Lanfear. It would thus be pretty safe to say that Moiraine cannot be stronger than 33, most probably weaker if the angreal is truly one of the tower's best.

 

Therefore an estimation of 27 for Siuan before stilling compared to 100 for Lanfear is not unreasonable.

 

As for Lanfear's beauty, I'm sure they had plastic surgery in AoL even if her looks are not natural, no need for any fancy theories here.

[Jemlin]

Didn't RJ or Brandon confirm that, where-in the Finns can not directly alter someone's strength and appearance, they have a store of ter'angreal and other devices they have collected over time that theoretically COULD do so.

 

The thing is, I think it is possible that during the Age of Legends, Lanfear could have acquired a ter'angreal or something else that altered her base strength, and beauty (not simply an angreal, but something that makes her FEEL stronger to other women when they sense her ability to channel.). Upon going to their realm a second time, these things were removed and we have her back in her original strength and form.

 

My reasoning for this is the only evidense we might have that she died is that she appears to be in  new body.  Her POV only said "held" by the finns, not "killed".  I think its possible there was something else going on.

 

[Thor]

Oh wait I just remembered Moiraine probably didn't know balefire at the time she engaged aginor.

[Nightstrike]

Matt: …so Lanfear, the theory goes, that maybe she was accentuated from a beauty and/or Power perspective by going to the 'Finnland previously.

 

Brandon: Okay.

 

Matt: Would the 'Finns have the ability to accentuate someone’s beauty and/or quantity or access to the One Power through their own capabilities and talents?

 

Brandon: Yes, but it might involve third party ter’angreal, angreal, this sort of thing.

 

Matt: So, they don’t have power to affect the soul’s capability of increasing its total channeling?

 

Brandon: Certainly not permanently; as far I understand, that is outside the realm of their ability.

 

Matt: From a beauty perspective can they affect the outer body of some individual?

 

Brandon: I would say that, yes they can, but they may have to be using some type of ter’angreal or…

 

Matt: …some item of Power?

 

Brandon: Some item of Power, something like that…of which they have great stores…

 

[what???]

 

Matt: Really?  Heh, so the obvious question, where did the 'Finns get great stores of ter’angreal, angreal, and is that part of the Pact they made?

 

Brandon: RAFO…but if you just think about it, we don’t even have to go to the notes for this if you think about it logically, we know of them providing certain items of Power to certain individuals that they were able to match very nicely with certain requests very easily. If you run the statistics on that, it's either a huge coincidence or they have very many to choose from.

 

The thing is, I think it is possible that during the Age of Legends, Lanfear could have acquired a ter'angreal or something else that altered her base strength, and beauty (not simply an angreal, but something that makes her FEEL stronger to other women when they sense her ability to channel.). Upon going to their realm a second time, these things were removed and we have her back in her original strength and form.

Did they have such thing during the AoL? None of the other Forsaken seem to be aware of it.

[Kaman]

I have another theory on the topic of why Cyndane is weaker than she was as Lanfear.

 

There is another way in which we have seen a channelers' power reduced beyond being healed from severing by a person of the same sex. Lanfear her self put a restriction weave on Asmodean that limited the amount of the one power he could draw so that while he was teaching Rand he wouldn't be a threat to Rands life.

 

I feel that it makes good sense for Cyndane to be restricted in the one power to a degree. Lanfear/Cyndane is "off the reservation" so to speak. She has gone "rogue indian". (No offense to any Native Americans who may be reading this). As we have seen at the end of book 5 and during the battle that surrounded the cleansing she is now hell bent on killing Rand/LTT. During the cleansing all she can think about is Rand/LTTs death. The only thing stopping her is that Moridin is stroking the cour'souvra letting her know that she is on a very short leash.

 

I believe that her current restriction could be a safe guard so she that she isn't able to channel enough of the one power to kill Rand before it is time. She certainly would try to kill Rand if she thought she could because Moridins finger wasn't on her at the time by way of the cour'souvra. Perhaps her restriction is not even permanent so that when the time comes it can be removed to allow her to serve the DO at full capacity.  If this is the case then certainly either the DO himself or Moridin placed this weave on her effectively reducing the aperture through which Cyndane draws saidar...for now.

[FarShainMael]

If so, it would surely have been Moridin, through the cour'souvra. Do we know if she's now weaker than Moridin - not that it matters I suppose as he's got access to the TP.

 

[Bowden]

Honestly, I think there is too much being read into this.

 

With the facts that are presented, it's obvious to me that Cyndane is Lanfear. We also know the Finn's do not like the shadow. If they can put other men's memories into Mat's head, why couldn't they make Lanfear weaker? I think they killed her, but because they can see the future weave of the pattern, they knew she'd be transmigrated and weakened her. It seems simple to me, but there is one thing missing; We don't know the full extent of the Finn's abilities.

 

I bet we find out in the next book though ;)  lol

[Kaman]

If so, it would surely have been Moridin, through the cour'souvra. Do we know if she's now weaker than Moridin - not that it matters I suppose as he's got access to the TP.

 

 

If my theory would prove true I feel that the restriction on the amount she can draw would be in addition to the power Moridin holds over her because of the cour'souvra.  Much like a secondary safe guard against a chance meeting and her lashing out at Rand before Moridin could use the cour'souvra to sit her back down. It would be much the same weave she herself used on Asmodean.

 

Also I believe Moridin was always much stronger than Lanfear in the one power as per RJ's quote that stated that men were stronger in the one power by the same proportion that men were stronger than women in physical strength. Though women are capable of more complex and nimble weaves and that this evens out the disparity that the difference in strength causes. So with her restricted strength she would be no match for Moridin either.   

[PatsNats28]

Oh wait I just remembered Moiraine probably didn't know balefire at the time she engaged aginor.

 

So you're saying she learned in in between there and Tear? When? When she hung out with Adeleas and Vandene during tGH?

[Sid]

I assume so.  She did mention 'I am ... more dangerous than when I came to Emond's Field.'  when the were discussing what to do in Tear before the Stone fell.  She didn't have time to learn it from then to Fal Dara, and not after Falme either.  The only thing we know she did between Fal Dara and Falme is visit Vandene and Adeleas.

[FarShainMael]

If so, it would surely have been Moridin, through the cour'souvra. Do we know if she's now weaker than Moridin - not that it matters I suppose as he's got access to the TP.

 

 

If my theory would prove true I feel that the restriction on the amount she can draw would be in addition to the power Moridin holds over her because of the cour'souvra.  Much like a secondary safe guard against a chance meeting and her lashing out at Rand before Moridin could use the cour'souvra to sit her back down. It would be much the same weave she herself used on Asmodean.

 

Also I believe Moridin was always much stronger than Lanfear in the one power as per RJ's quote that stated that men were stronger in the one power by the same proportion that men were stronger than women in physical strength. Though women are capable of more complex and nimble weaves and that this evens out the disparity that the difference in strength causes. So with her restricted strength she would be no match for Moridin either.     

 

There would be some overlap, though, I think. The physically weakest man is not stronger than the strongest woman (think body-builders), and I would expect this to apply to the One Power as well.

 

But I wouldn't expect Moridin to be amoing the weakest channellers, somehow!  ;) So your point is generally valid.

 

[Nightstrike]

There is another way in which we have seen a channelers' power reduced beyond being healed from severing by a person of the same sex. Lanfear her self put a restriction weave on Asmodean that limited the amount of the one power he could draw so that while he was teaching Rand he wouldn't be a threat to Rands life.

Graendal would have sensed her true strength, not how much she was restricted to draw upon.

 

If my theory would prove true I feel that the restriction on the amount she can draw would be in addition to the power Moridin holds over her because of the cour'souvra.  Much like a secondary safe guard against a chance meeting and her lashing out at Rand before Moridin could use the cour'souvra to sit her back down. It would be much the same weave she herself used on Asmodean.

Cyndane’s & Moggy’s cour’souvra were known to Demandred, I believe. As a concept, this is known among the Forsaken. They’ve brought people to be them on occasions before. Like Moggy (I think it was Moggy that thought about it, wasn’t it?).

 

There would be some overlap, though, I think. The physically weakest man is not stronger than the strongest woman (think body-builders), and I would expect this to apply to the One Power as well.

Weakest man & weakest woman are about the same strength. RJ said so.

 

[Shadow Rider]

I kinda figured Lanfear had a ter'angreal that boosted her to Full power and when she died an became Cyndane, she went back to her original power level.

 

Severing: Maybe in the AoL they had a few ways to sever someone, as we have a number of was to execute condemned criminals. We being civilized choose the most humane method.

 

 

[aunt_pol]

I kinda figured Lanfear had a ter'angreal that boosted her to Full power and when she died an became Cyndane, she went back to her original power level.

 

Severing: Maybe in the AoL they had a few ways to sever someone, as we have a number of was to execute condemned criminals. We being civilized choose the most humane method.

 

 

 

 

Yeah, cos executing criminals is so civilised...! ;)

[Nightstrike]

Graendal thought on Cyndane & Moggy. She thought about where Moggy had found a girl that much stronger than herself. If Moggy had been weakened, then the Cyndane-Lanny connection would be more easily seen.

[aunt_pol]

@Nightstrike: Yeah, there's somethin in that alright. Moggy seems to be pretty much on a par with Nynaeve, who is widely considered to be pretty kick ass in those terms. Lanfear was the strongest woman ever, apparently, but weakened, she's still "that much" stronger than Moggy?

[Shadow Rider]

 

Since were talking power levels I thought I'd post this:

 

Scale of Strength in Saidar

 

Level 21

Lanfear

 

Level 20

Cyndane, Alivia

 

Level 19

Graendal, Sharina

 

Level 18

Nynaeve, Semirhage, Talaan

 

Level 17

Mesaana, Someryn (minimum)

 

Level 16

Moghedien, Tamela, Viendre

 

Level 15

Aviendha, Egwene, Elayne, Metarra

 

Level 14

Bode, Cadsuane

 

Level 13

Kerene, Meilyn, Nicola (minimum), Therava (minimum)

 

Level 12

Elaida, Elle, Garenia/Zarya, Janacy/Jancy, Lelaine, Moiraine, Rainyn, Romanda, Siuan (old)

 

MINIMUM LEVEL TO USE CHOEDAN KAL

 

Level 11

Amys (minimum), Cetalia, Kirstian, Larelle, Leane (old), Merean, Merise, Naime, Pevara, Reanne, Rysael, Saerin, Sheriam, Theodrin, Yukiri

 

Level 10

Anaiya, Beonin, Bera, Caire, Carlinya, Coiren, Desandre, Faolain, Felaana, Galina, Joline, Katerine (minimum), Kiruna, Kwamesa, Lemai, Maigan, Melaine, Morvrin, Myrelle, Nesune, Silviana, Talene, Tebreille, Teslyn

 

Level 9

Delana, Doesine, Edarra (minimum), Faeldrin, Gabrelle, Liandrin, Leyn (minimum), Masuri, Narenwhin, Rafela, Renaile, Seaine, Shalon (minimum), Sumeko, Tarna, Toveine

 

Level 8

Alanna, Alviarin (minimum), Chanelle, Covarla, Dorile, Duhara, Eldrith, Falion, Ispan, Julanya, Keraille, Kurin, Meidani (minimum), Merana, Senine, Seonid, Verin

 

MINIMUM LEVEL TO TRAVEL

 

Level 7

Aeldene, Asne, Chesmal, Demira, Elza, Lusonia (minimum), Marillin, Merilille, Tialin

 

Level 6

Adeleas, Kairen, Micarra, Sareitha, Temaile, Turanna, Valinde, Vandene, Vasha (minimum), Zerah

 

Level 5

Aiden, Akarrin, Berenicia, Berowin, Cabriana, Careane, Kumira, Leane (new), Hattori (maximum), Jamilila, Nalasia, Siuan (new), Teramina, Therva, Zemaille,

 

Level 4

Daigian, Monaelle, Nisain, Reiko, Shana

 

CURRENT MINIMUM LEVEL FOR BECOMING AES SEDAI

 

Level 3

Sarainya

 

MINIMUM LEVEL FOR BECOMING ACCEPTED

 

Level 2

Alise, Asra, Caiden, Kumiko, Sorilea

 

Level 1

Morgase

[aunt_pol]

Well that was very informative! Cheers!

[aunt_pol]

Although, it does make it look as if Lanfear lost feck all, really, in her change/transmigration/whatever.

And doesn't Cyndane moan about her loss of strength as if it were a big deal?

 

Answering my own question. Would be a bit of a comedown to find someone the same strength as you, when you'd spent all your life being The Strongest.

[Duskfire]

Although, it does make it look as if Lanfear lost feck all, really, in her change/transmigration/whatever.

And doesn't Cyndane moan about her loss of strength as if it were a big deal?

 

Answering my own question. Would be a bit of a comedown to find someone the same strength as you, when you'd spent all your life being The Strongest.

 

She was full of pride regarding her strength, so I can see it being a problem for her. Not to mention it just makes the other Forsaken that much closer to her, and in such a competitive world that would definetly be a problem.

[Thor]

The 21 level thing is so full of guano anyways. There is no chance no matter how skilled you are that you can survive and injure someone more than twice as strong and carrying a whole load of defensive/offensive terangreals (referring to cyndane vs alivia obviously).

[FarShainMael]

Weakest man & weakest woman are about the same strength. RJ said so.

 

Did you mean 'Weakest man & strongest woman are about the same strength.'?

 

Could you supply a link to RJ's word on the subject? Thanks.

 

 

[Nightstrike]

For Gyrehead, Foretelling is not related to strength.  The weakest possible channeler could Foretell as strongly as Elaida or Nicola, or perhaps even more so, depending entirely on the strength of his or her Talent for Foretelling.  The three Red Sitters were sent into exile in 985 NE under Marith Jaen.  Yes, Morgase has slowed, and that is exactly why there is so much emphasis on her looking only ten years older than Perrin when she has children the ages of Elayne and Gawyn.  Regarding the percentage of women who could test for the shawl, it would be 62.5% of the bellcurve.  I’ll leave the maths to you for an idle moment.  The question doesn’t really apply to men, since the Black Tower accepts anyone who can learn to channel, but if the White Tower limits were applied, it would be roughly 65.4% of the bellcurve.  Although, considering the effectiveness question, they should probably set it at the same 62.5%.  Again, the maths are all yours.  Regarding the levels of male strength, while the weakest man and the weakest woman would be roughly equivalent, you might say that there are several levels of male strength on top of the female levels.  Remember to integrate this with what I’ve said elsewhere about effectiveness, though.

 

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=26

[FarShainMael]

So quite a lot of overlap, then. Thanks!

 

[Nightstrike]

A whole lot of overlap on the scales, but maybe a little less in distribution? Possibly...