Does the Dragon need to be a man?

[Jon Paul]

This is something I have wondered at.  Does the Dragon (Rand) need to be a man?  I do not mean by this question as to whether there could be female Dragons.

 

What I mean here is.. why do Cadsuane and others assume that Rand needs to learn to laugh and cry again, in otherwards, to feel again?  Why does the Dragon need to be aware of these emotions to do what must be done?  Verin warned Egwene that she fears Rand does not understand how his confrontation with the Dark One must be like.*  But in no scenario can I concieve Rand's awareness of humanity being necesssary to win that fight.  Perhaps, after the fight, if Shai'tan be locked away again.. but that's working on the assumption that Rand will walk away from the fight with breath in his lungs or even that he should.  It is as he said to Nyn'.. he's climbing Dragonmount, he will reach the top.  But you don't climb Dragonmount until it's your last scaling as you wont be climbing back down.

 

Why does everyone naturally assume Rand needs tears to face Shai'tan?

 

*No doubt Egwene has it all planned out of course, knowing that the mud-footed farmer will end up getting it wrong and an Aes Sedai collar is all that will save the world..

[Luckers]

I don't understand your premise. What does the Dragon being male or female have to do with feeling things?

 

In any case...

 

RJ: The soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ... so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul...is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

 

[Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting]

[Jon Paul]

No luckers, my question has nothing to do with the Dragon's sex.  What I mean is that, in recent books we have come to see Rand view the Dragon as an idea, as a force, and not as a man.  He feels he has had to cast aside his humanity, to become steel.

 

My question is.. why is that a bad thing?

[Shard]

I know exactly what your talking about and it was a bit like Eddings Second series. It's many's fear that should Rand win against the DO and still not feel the emotions of Joy and Sadness that he would be EXACLTY like or worse then the DO. He would be an unstoppable force of Evil. That may even be the DO's goal in the end and that is why Caddy wants to teach Rand Luaghter and Tears.

[Jon Paul]

Understandable Shard.  But Rand himself has or had no intention of coming back down from that mountain.  He looks forward to death.  I wouldn't be surprised if, after his fight with the Dark One, he fell on his own sword with a smile on his lips - I would.

 

But what if, in humanising the Dragon, they are giving the enemy the tools they need to conquer?  Cadsuane and others, for all their vaunted wisdom, are far too short-sighted.  Rand seems to be the only one with real foresight of the future.  Beyond even his Age and the Age he is about to herald.

 

If a Dark Rand is needed to seal the Dark One until the Age of Legends come again.. what matter will a few centuries, most likely a lot less, of hell-on-earth from his tyranny in the garnd scheme of things?

[jemron]

I think the point is that Rand thought that he had to do this alone, and so he walled everyone out and tried to even wall out his own emotions so that he would be "heartless."  I think this would've doomed him and all of humanity.

 

He can't do it alone.  He needs the "Veins of Gold" that he feels when he is around his loved ones so that he makes the correct choices, for the good of humanity.  Without human emotions such as love and happiness and sadness, he won't make the right decisions that are good for humanity.  He will just wall it all out and doom the world by becoming emotionless and non-influenced by the consequences of his actions.  As was stated, he would become an evil like unto the DO.  Making choices that would ill-affect those around him.

 

As cheesy as the VoG chapter may have been to some, I think it was necessary for Rand to realize why he fought this fight over and over and never gave into the DO.  He does it so that he and everyone can be given more and more chances to re-live their lives and correct past mistakes.  It's a type of penitence that everyone gets a chance to re-live.  He now has a reason for going forward.  Not because he has to (duty) but because he wants to (it is the right thing to do and he feels it).

 

My 2 centavos.

[Jon Paul]

But, to address your first two paragraphs, Jemron, that would all be fine and dandy.  If Rand was to be a leader of men post-Tarmon Gai'don.  But no one, especially Rand himself, wants that.  Hell, the Aes Sedai themselves seem to be of the opinion that they will be the ones to win Tarmon Gai'don.  Rand's mere presence will be enough, after that he can be shunted away in a corner.

 

Humanity's goodness and well-being, within the context of the Wheel of Time (I my self am a practicing Catholic, but if I imagine my self as a man within a reality such as the WoT, I would be nihilistic like Ishy), is simply it's continued existance.  As long as Rand seals the Dark One away until the next Age of Legends, everything is fine and dandy.  It seems to me people (within the Wheel) are iving too much thought to today and tomorrow.  Not next week or next month.

 

Your last paragraph holds more with me though.  But then, these emotions are simply placed on a level of a means to an end.  That is what they are relegated to and the only question is which would be more successful.. a cold Rand or happy Rand?  Which will produce the end result, the Dark One sealed again?

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think you have to also ask yourself "what exactly is the Last Battle?"

 

Does the Dragon win the battle when all the Trollocs, Myrdraal, Drakhar, Gholam, Dreadlords and remaining Forsaken are destroyed?  Or are they just the buffer to prevent the Dragon from sealing the Bore again?

 

I always thought the end of the War of Power was the Sealing of the Dark One, not so much the annihilation of the Dark One's armies (which it seemed wasn't happening in any case - the Light was losing when Lews Therin decided to go ahead with his plan).

 

So...if the Aes Sedai consider the Last Battle the actual BATTLE then I can see how they think they would win, whereas if they see that Rand needs to seal the Dark One's prison then I think they would bend their energies toward that goal instead.

[Reeve]

I think its a question of what Rand would be willing to do to win. If he has no heart, and is as steel, is he going to be okay with destroying everything in the world to stop the DO. If that is so, then he is not only doing what the DO wants, but not even achieving a win, just a suicide and a slaughter. You have to know why you fight, and what you are willing to do, before you try to do it. Its the old fighting fire with fire thing. You just end up with a bigger fire. Or like Gandhi said "An eye for an eye blinds the world". Good versus evil rather than evil versus evil, see what I mean?

[Jon Paul]

Aes Sedai do my head in as a whole, Balefireruinssteaks :P!

 

For instance, when Egwene spoke with the Sitters in Knife of Dreams (I believe), and spoke of the world's need for the White Tower to be united so as it could lead that world.. as if they had any right to do so after millenia of bungling the entire job of it.

 

I will agree with Jemron above, Rand cannot do it alone.  He does need help.  But no one is helping him.  No one, not even the Aes Sedai, are helping him.  Advice him as need be, oppose him in decisions that may be wrong-footed.  But these people do not do so, they oppose him to work to their own agendas.

[Jon Paul]

I think its a question of what Rand would be willing to do to win. If he has no heart, and is as steel, is he going to be okay with destroying everything in the world to stop the DO. If that is so, then he is not only doing what the DO wants, but not even achieving a win, just a suicide and a slaughter. You have to know why you fight, and what you are willing to do, before you try to do it. Its the old fighting fire with fire thing. You just end up with a bigger fire. Or like Gandhi said "An eye for an eye blinds the world". Good versus evil rather than evil versus evil, see what I mean?

 

I'm not so sure.  I don't think the Dark One is evil.  He or rather it is simply Chaos.  If the Dark One breaks free, there is not going to be a reign of evil.  If Shai'tan strangles the Great Snake, there will simply be chaos, there will be an end of ordered existance, reality its self.  There will be no hope after that.

 

But even a tyrannical Rand who burns thousands in public fires to warm his feet, as long as he has done his job with Shai'tan, there will be still be hope.  His reign will end.  Shai'tan's will not.

 

I guess at the root of my question is which means will acomplish the goal of sealing Shai'tan.  What comes after that is of not great import.  But in the case of which route is better I can see why humanising the Dragon could be more beneficial.

[Shard]

The problem is you don't know what Dark Rand would do, burning thousands? Try millions, hell try Reality itself, if he went Shadar Logoth Bad there may not be a world left.

[A Trite Pun]

All right, this is how I always saw it (which is probably wrong, but wtf):

While the armies of light are fighting a physical battle with the armies of dark, Rand is going to be trapped in some sort of epic/metaphysical battle with the DO, not to mention some plot twists and turns that we don't see coming.  It's been my belief that if the DO breaks free and Rand was Cuendillar (i.e dark Rand), than he would break like quenched steel...or like the cuendillar seals on the DO's prison (interesting that we learn of a secret method to destroy cuendillar just around the time that Rand decides to become cuendillar, by his own words, but i digress...)

Anyways, I saw it as in order for Rand to have a chance of defeating the DO at Tarmon Gaidon, he has to be human, and happy, and able to cry and laugh, or else the DO would destroy him easily.

 

And that's my thoughts  :D

[Hadilmir]

Hmm, maybe I'll get around to typing up my new theory on the nature of the Pattern. If so, I'll answer this question in it. (Seems that I do a new one every month or so ;))

[gatesofhaven]

Rand almost destroyed the will of time with the choedan kal when he was "cuendillar". Even if caddy had not pushed him to that do you think he would have gone to the last battle with enough sanity to know what he was doing while he was so dark?

[The Dirty Landry]

What I think a lot of people don't realize is that The DO's/Moridin's goal was to get him to become like Cuendillar. What happens throughout TGS is a prime example of what would happen if Rand doesn't care about anything or know why he is fighting. It was Moridins and the Dark One's hope that he would destroy the world when he was on Dragonmount. If he had stayed as he was, there would have been no Last Battle bc, the world would be destroyed. Which is just fine with the Dark One. I don't think you need to look any further than TGS to see why it would not be a good idea for him not to care or be Dark Rand. That was the point of the story arc.

 

One of the themes of the series, is that the Heroes need help in order to be successful. They cannot do everything on their own. All of the main characters have received help to be successful (especially Rand). If Rand walled himself off from everyone, he wouldn't receive the aid he needed to defeat the Dark One. Even if he hadn't destroyed the world while being apathetic, he couldn't very well do whatever it is he needs with Callandor alone at the Last Battle.

[Shaidar]

While I know this isn't how WoT works, I think it would have been cool if "Dragon" was a role that was rotated through all the souls in the Pattern.

 

So at some point everyone got a chance to save the and sacrifice for the world - Rand himself, Egwene, Cenn, Bayle Domon, even Moghedien. Anyway...

[azrael.1289]

The problem is you don't know what Dark Rand would do, burning thousands? Try millions, hell try Reality itself, if he went Shadar Logoth Bad there may not be a world left.

Yeah..But what the TC is asking I guess is that even that chance is better than the certainty that DO WILL destroy the pattern if Rand doesn't stop him.

[Agitel]

Understandable Shard.  But Rand himself has or had no intention of coming back down from that mountain.  He looks forward to death.  I wouldn't be surprised if, after his fight with the Dark One, he fell on his own sword with a smile on his lips - I would.

 

But what if, in humanising the Dragon, they are giving the enemy the tools they need to conquer?  Cadsuane and others, for all their vaunted wisdom, are far too short-sighted.  Rand seems to be the only one with real foresight of the future.  Beyond even his Age and the Age he is about to herald.

 

If a Dark Rand is needed to seal the Dark One until the Age of Legends come again.. what matter will a few centuries, most likely a lot less, of hell-on-earth from his tyranny in the garnd scheme of things?

 

Everything the DO's done has been to harden Rand and make him a crueler person who feels all alone in the world and very stressed, I don't think a loving Rand is a bad thing, especially since hardened Rand nearly did the DO's job for him.

[azrael.1289]

Understandable Shard.  But Rand himself has or had no intention of coming back down from that mountain.  He looks forward to death.  I wouldn't be surprised if, after his fight with the Dark One, he fell on his own sword with a smile on his lips - I would.

 

But what if, in humanising the Dragon, they are giving the enemy the tools they need to conquer?  Cadsuane and others, for all their vaunted wisdom, are far too short-sighted.  Rand seems to be the only one with real foresight of the future.  Beyond even his Age and the Age he is about to herald.

 

If a Dark Rand is needed to seal the Dark One until the Age of Legends come again.. what matter will a few centuries, most likely a lot less, of hell-on-earth from his tyranny in the garnd scheme of things?

Everything the DO's done has been to harden Rand and make him a crueler person who feels all alone in the world and very stressed, I don't think a loving Rand is a bad thing, especially since hardened Rand nearly did the DO's job for him.

What has the DO done with the intention of hardening Rand? IMO most of the hardening happened due to the actions of many people on the light side itself.

[csarmi]

It's strange that no one mentions that Rand is tied to the land directly. If he loses humanity, the world is doomed. Literally. Not just through some plots, twists, or his actions. By just being so.

 

Remember, what happened in Arad Doman, and heed that.

[Loophole]

I think the main reason that they want him to feel again is because if you cut off emotion entirely what is to stop him from giving up before the end. If you don't care about anything why bother fighting for it, you need the motivation to protect others that his veins of gold gives him.

 

I agree that a dark rand rule would be worth it even if millions were killed, at least there would be people to be killed... but that assumes a dark rand would have the necessary resolve to win the battle.

[Hadilmir]

It's strange that no one mentions that Rand is tied to the land directly. If he loses humanity, the world is doomed. Literally. Not just through some plots, twists, or his actions. By just being so.

 

Remember, what happened in Arad Doman, and heed that.

Finally someone mentions it.

 

Also, azrael, I disagree. There's too many instances to list, but Moridin and the other Forsaken could have been and were behind many of them. Think about Moridin's PoV in tPoD. He mentions controlling both sides. He very likely does.

The three most important being:

-Moridin may have stolen the fat man angreal, forcing Rand to use Callandor (Tainted) and then the Choedan Kal (Too Powerful). He had the motive and the ability given his fan-cloth and TP.

-Mesaana and Demandred were behind 'The Box'.

-Releasing Semirhage and then using it as an opportunity to force Rand into using the TP.