A Theory to Answer Two Old Questions

[algspkr]

In The Shadow Rising Moiraine says that she knows the face of her future husband better than Elayne or Egwene.  She then tells Thom that they will meet again.  I think that when she and Thom were in Baerlon Min told her that they would marry.

[Demiandre]

It has been discussed in the "ask a simple question, get a simple answer" thread. Even if it is neither a very simple question, nor a simple answer. But I thought it could explain things quite well.

[talligan]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

[lews reborn]

I thought she would of learned it in Rhuidean( sorry for spelling ) and always thought it would be Thom after she wrote him the pre-death letter. The two together would make a dominating team in the game of houses :)

 

[Majsju]

The huge problem with the idea that Min had a viewing like that (and told Moiraine about it) is Moiraines letter in KOD. In the letter, Moiraine not only says that she does not know if the rescue attempt will be successful, she does not even know if it will actually happen.´

 

So, for this supposed viewing to have ever happened, Moiraine either lies in the letter (which she should not be able to do), or she does not believe that Mins viewings always come true, something that goes against how she treated Min throughout the books.

[Demiandre]

But I always think that this Viewings involved some kind of condition. Like Bryne and Siuan. As Thom having to be there for Moiraine, anf Moiraine having to be there for Thom. And all Viewings aren't categoric either. It could have been a not so sure Viewing. "There will be something between you. I don't know anymore than that." And then she fall in love with him somehow, and him the other way too.

[Majsju]

Min has only had two viewing with a condition, the one with Siuan and Gareth, and one unknown. Now, for the unknown viewing, it does sound like it could be refering to her viewing about Moiraine being necessary for Rand to win TG.

[Shadow Rider]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Some believe Moiraine is stilled....she may have gotten used to not being able to channel & may decide not to be healed...

as for Min....well Rand has 2 to fall back on... :P

[algspkr]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Some believe Moiraine is stilled....she may have gotten used to not being able to channel & may decide not to be healed...

as for Min....well Rand has 2 to fall back on... :P

 

She would still out live him, I would be willing to bet that her age is around 30 at the most.  The best bet to get them comparable life spans would be to have them both channeling.  We see that the older novices Egwene gathered seemed to have begun reversing their aging process.

[Sharaman]

Moiraine is mid 40s, Thom is mid 60s.

That sort of age difference is unusual but not unheard of.

Any AS who marries / falls in love with non-channeler is looking at far outliving her chosen one.

Since AS do marry (even if rarely), they live with that knowledge.

The best way around it is, if neither can channel.

We know Thom never will from RJ's statements on the subject.

 

[Val Mickey]

So, for this supposed viewing to have ever happened, Moiraine either lies in the letter (which she should not be able to do), or she does not believe that Mins viewings always come true, something that goes against how she treated Min throughout the books.

 

If Moirane doesn't come out, Rand will lose, the Pattern will be unraveled/remade, so Min's viewing could go wrong. Moirane could have figured this out. She uncovered Sammael and Be'lal, after all.

 

Also in the letter, she talks only of the Rhuidean rings. She says "this is what I've seen", not "this is what I believe." I've always suspected this idea since Moirane sends Thom off packing (in TSR) to Tanchico.

 

P.S Maybe Thom will get youthfulness from the Finns?

[mb]

In The Shadow Rising Moiraine says that she knows the face of her future husband better than Elayne or Egwene.  She then tells Thom that they will meet again.  I think that when she and Thom were in Baerlon Min told her that they would marry.

This was discussed many times.

I agree.

 

The huge problem with the idea that Min had a viewing like that (and told Moiraine about it) is Moiraines letter in KOD. In the letter, Moiraine not only says that she does not know if the rescue attempt will be successful, she does not even know if it will actually happen.

The letter seems to not tell whether Moiraine knew of the attempt.

Moiraine does not guarantee success, yet there seems to be at least a small degree of hope implied in the letter (mention of Snakes & Foxes, the number of how many can come).

 

There are also these possibilities if Moiraine knew about the Viewing::

-Moiraine forgetting the Viewing.

-Moiraine deciding to not tell her knowledge.

 

[Luckers]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Some believe Moiraine is stilled....she may have gotten used to not being able to channel & may decide not to be healed...

as for Min....well Rand has 2 to fall back on... :P

 

Another idea is that Thom might have the ability to learn to channel. It would fit his nature to attempt to aid the Black Tower politically to hold its own against the White, and we know Min saw a man juggling flame that was neither Thom nor Owayn (and presumably not Rand either given Min would have recognised him) which suggests future contact between Thom and men who can channel. It's only one further step to asking to be tested for the ability and joining them, now that saidin is clean (a fact Thom is now aware of).

 

I think this would be precisely the type of thing Thom would do to repay his debt. Also I've always had a problem that none of the known male characters who could not channel prior to the cleansing have learnt. I'm not talking all of them joining the Black Tower, just one or two (Thom and Gawyn maybe?)

 

And just consider that alliance. Thom of the Black and Moiraine of the White.

 

 

[Demiandre]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Some believe Moiraine is stilled....she may have gotten used to not being able to channel & may decide not to be healed...

as for Min....well Rand has 2 to fall back on... :P

 

Another idea is that Thom might have the ability to learn to channel. It would fit his nature to attempt to aid the Black Tower politically to hold its own against the White, and we know Min saw a man juggling flame that was neither Thom nor Owayn (and presumably not Rand either given Min would have recognised him) which suggests future contact between Thom and men who can channel. It's only one further step to asking to be tested for the ability and joining them, now that saidin is clean (a fact Thom is now aware of).

 

I think this would be precisely the type of thing Thom would do to repay his debt. Also I've always had a problem that none of the known male characters who could not channel prior to the cleansing have learnt. I'm not talking all of them joining the Black Tower, just one or two (Thom and Gawyn maybe?)

 

And just consider that alliance. Thom of the Black and Moiraine of the White.

 

 

 

I agree with you, however the Viewing refer obviously to Owayn. Min say she saw "A man juggling fire, not him, and the White Tower." Stranger and friends, tEotW.

 

This refer certainly to the revenge Thom want to have upon the Red Sister who gentled his nephew...

[Duskfire]

Q: Can Thom channel?

RJ: Absolutely not. I never intended anyone to think he could.

 

I think the one juggling fire in Thoms aura is Mat, and will involve the Tower of Ghenjei. Could also mean Mat needing to "juggle" a whole bunch of things, any of which could blow up in his face (Tuon, Eganin, Aes Sedai, etc etc.) Mat can also juggle quite well. The Whitetower bit is Mat needing to choose between two Aes Sedai, and Thom aiding him in what he chooses.

[Luckers]

I agree with you, however the Viewing refer obviously to Owayn. Min say she saw "A man juggling fire, not him, and the White Tower." Stranger and friends, tEotW.

 

Nope.

 

Zaela: Are Min's visions about the past or the future?

RJ: They are about the future

 

Owayn was in the past, therefore not the man Min saw.

 

Q: Can Thom channel?

RJ: Absolutely not. I never intended anyone to think he could.

 

I think the one juggling fire in Thoms aura is Mat, and will involve the Tower of Ghenjei. Could also mean Mat needing to "juggle" a whole bunch of things, any of which could blow up in his face (Tuon, Eganin, Aes Sedai, etc etc.) Mat can also juggle quite well. The Whitetower bit is Mat needing to choose between two Aes Sedai, and Thom aiding him in what he chooses.

 

RJ is absolutely correct. Thom cannot channel. That is not to say he couldn't learn. And yes, there did use to be a theory that Thom could channel. It mostly stemmed from the blue lightning when he fought (and survived fighting) a myrdraal in the Eye of the World.

 

Whether he does learn to channel or not, I think that viewing almost certainly is about whatever role Thom plays in the setting up of early relations between the Asha'men and the White Tower in the early days of the next age.

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

I see Thom dying. He just seems a character that fits the "tearjerk" but expendable category.

[sonieb33]

In The Shadow Rising Moiraine says that she knows the face of her future husband better than Elayne or Egwene.  She then tells Thom that they will meet again.  I think that when she and Thom were in Baerlon Min told her that they would marry.

 

Excellent theory! I have to concur.

[Ishmayl]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Except that there's an extremely good chance that Moraine will sadly be burned out from her adventures in Finnland, and she will not live a ridiculously long lifetime.  Sure, Thom's still older, but Moraine is probably 40-ish, Thom 65-ish (at the most), happy marriages have been arranged with larger age disparities than that.

[Duskfire]

Moiraine would be better off with someone like Mat. Now that would be a relationship I would love to see. :P

[algspkr]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Except that there's an extremely good chance that Moraine will sadly be burned out from her adventures in Finnland, and she will not live a ridiculously long lifetime.  Sure, Thom's still older, but Moraine is probably 40-ish, Thom 65-ish (at the most), happy marriages have been arranged with larger age disparities than that.

 

Moraine is the same age as Suian, and after stilling Suian seemed to be 30 at the oldest.  I believe that had Suian lived a normal non-channeling life afterwards she would have lived an additional 40-50 years.

[sonieb33]

I think the one juggling fire in Thoms aura is Mat, and will involve the Tower of Ghenjei. Could also mean Mat needing to "juggle" a whole bunch of things, any of which could blow up in his face (Tuon, Eganin, Aes Sedai, etc etc.) Mat can also juggle quite well. The Whitetower bit is Mat needing to choose between two Aes Sedai, and Thom aiding him in what he chooses.

 

The vision of juggling fire is a man but not him [Thom], if my memory serves. It makes me think of Aludra and her fireworks. She's made gunpowder, obviously, so I'm wondering if this refers to Mat using lightsticks, bombs, cannons, etc...

[Duskfire]

I think the one juggling fire in Thoms aura is Mat, and will involve the Tower of Ghenjei. Could also mean Mat needing to "juggle" a whole bunch of things, any of which could blow up in his face (Tuon, Eganin, Aes Sedai, etc etc.) Mat can also juggle quite well. The Whitetower bit is Mat needing to choose between two Aes Sedai, and Thom aiding him in what he chooses.

 

The vision of juggling fire is a man but not him [Thom], if my memory serves. It makes me think of Aludra and her fireworks. She's made gunpowder, obviously, so I'm wondering if this refers to Mat using lightsticks, bombs, cannons, etc...

 

Yup, exactly what I was thinking. Particularly since Thom is firmly in the Mat camp in regards to his ta`vereness and is always around.

[Ishmayl]

But he's old and will likely pass on while Moiraine is in the prime of her life - the idea of what will happen in 10 - 15 years makes me sad :(

 

That's the one thing I never understood about wedded Aes Sedai and Warders (a la Nynaeve and Lan) or even Rand and Min.

 

Except that there's an extremely good chance that Moraine will sadly be burned out from her adventures in Finnland, and she will not live a ridiculously long lifetime.  Sure, Thom's still older, but Moraine is probably 40-ish, Thom 65-ish (at the most), happy marriages have been arranged with larger age disparities than that.

 

Moraine is the same age as Suian, and after stilling Suian seemed to be 30 at the oldest.  I believe that had Suian lived a normal non-channeling life afterwards she would have lived an additional 40-50 years.

 

You're right, she's the same age as Siuan.  Keep in mind, that it has been 20 years since New Spring, in which Moraine and Siuan were raised to Aes Sedai.  Before that, the general amount of time a woman spent in training as novice and Accepted was 10 - 15 years.  Now given, I believe it's been mentioned that S&M (yeah, I went there) "graduated" much quicker than others, but considering that most women spark when they're 16-ish, to put them in your age range, they would have had to have "graduated" within three years.  And I'm pretty sure that didn't happen.

 

All that being said as subjectively-gathered evidence, I also present you the fact that in the back of Lord of Chaos, it mentions that Moraine was born in 956 NE.  The current year is 999 NE.  That means she is 43 years old.

 

By the way, the reason Siuan "seemed to be 30-ish" is because she slowed, as does any woman who can channel.  Therefore, even without the oath rod, she still looks younger than her actual age.

[Demiandre]

I think it is past 1000 NE by now...

 

Siuan and Moiraine spent 3 years Novices and 3 more accepted IIRC. sparking at 16 -17, they would have been 22 - 23 when becoming Aes Sedai. And remember Rand's birth in the beginning of New Spring. That is a good scale gor calculation how much time passed between then and now.

 

Why wouldn't have Min recognize Mat in Thom's aura? Remember she also saw seven ruined tower with Lan. If something past will influence future, I think she could see it. Lan is obvious, because of his endless war and his current trip to Tarwin Gap and Malkier and his "Kinginess".

 

And the same apply to Thom. Owayn's fate has been a turn in Thom's destiny

It will probably influence his future action regarding the other Aura, i.e. the White Tower. Moiraine has to give him the name of the sister causing the after-the-aiel-war-vileness.

 

I maintain it is Owayn. I think it is the meaning of the Aura that is related to the future