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The last that could be done


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Supposedly Rand endured the worst thing that could ever happen to him.  I was thinking about Grendals orders in another thread.  She's supposed to bring him pain right?  Well if Rand is wrong, that there's worse that can be done to him, what would it be?  I was thinking what if they had a girl go into rands rooms Mirrored like Elayne or aviendha, had that person hostage nearby so Rand would feel them close in the bond, then put a pleasure weave on that person, then had the girl sleep with Rand, then reveal the info in some dramatic way to Rand so it blows his mind.  Moraine had already learned that sleeping with Rand would be disasterous.  So we know this would be bad, that it would be possible, but it would be kinda convoluted.

 

So what other ways could the forsaken take something from him, or hurt him really bad?  We know the 3 wives don't get killed, from prophecy, so what else could the FS do to Rand?  Is there anything left? or Was Rand right?

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I can't imagine anything would be worse than being forced to kill one of the women he loves.  (I mean, I suppose you could make him kill all three, but the basic idea is still sound.)  Fooling him into sleeping with the wrong woman, even if possible, would not be in the same order of magnitude.  And killing someone close to him is, again, not in the same league as making him do it himself.

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But he didn't kill her.  Even if he doesn't think it himself, the truth is that almost killing her and killing her are not even close to the same thing.  And we know those 3 don't die, so what else could be worse than what he's done, and had taken away, already?

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Mall shopping with the Sea Folk?

 

Well serious answer then, the worst that can be done is basically completely dependent on what he cares about.  So it was true for him the time he said it, not so much after the end of TGS.  Based on what we've seen on Moridin and the Forsaken in general, if any of them had the ability to delay TG at all, it seems likely that they'd do so if for example they learned of his unborn children.  To simply use them to inflict pain/anguish etc.

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The point of that chapter was that Rand has been so emotionaly tortured throughout the series, after that chapter, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to him emotionaly anymore; i dont think this has even changed after VoG, Rand being forced to torture Min just took him to the worst possible emotional space, so even if he the forsaken killed Min, Elayne, Avienda, Tam, Nynaeve,.Mat, Perin, and Lan together, he would just return to the emotional state he was at in 'The Last That Could Be Done', and stay there. I think people missed the signifigance of that chapter if they think anything more can be done to him.

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The point of that chapter was that Rand has been so emotionaly tortured throughout the series, after that chapter, there is absolutely nothing that can be done to him emotionaly anymore; i dont think this has even changed after VoG, Rand being forced to torture Min just took him to the worst possible emotional space, so even if he the forsaken killed Min, Elayne, Avienda, Tam, Nynaeve,.Mat, Perin, and Lan together, he would just return to the emotional state he was at in 'The Last That Could Be Done', and stay there. I think people missed the signifigance of that chapter if they think anything more can be done to him.

 

I agree. He's gone past the 'I will use everybody that must be used for the purposes that I must' attitude and into a new headspace. We can only speculate where this reconciled attitude is going to lead him - I mean, we know where we <u>hope</u> it will lead him (to victory at TG). After seeing what damage his former attitude caused to those he loves, how much worse <i>could</i> it get if someone close to him <i>was</i> killed?

 

Even Rand knows that the chances of everyone surviving are slim to none.

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From his perspective, the worst was done.  And from what you guys are saying, he was already acting as badly as he could, but both perspectives could easily be wrong.

 

What rand did after he went downhill wasn't bad at all.  It's a war for existence, and killing a couple dozen/hundred people, who may or may not be DFs or compulsed into oblivion but likely are one or the other, to get one forsaken is small potatoes.  He's killed many more people than that as simple pawns in plans that never even came to fruition half the time.  There was absolutely nothing monstrous about what he did, beyond the monstrosity of killing any person for any reason.  Also, failing to take someone out who you know is causing so much evil in the world, just because you don't want to get your hands dirty can be a bigger sin than murder.

 

He did almost hurt his dad, but then, his dad hit the nail right on the head.  Cadsuan has f'd with his head more than anyone else, and not for the better.  She did more damage than the AS in the box, although they laid the ground work for Cad to do so much damage.

 

Anyway, my question is what else could be done to him, what will people try to do to mess with him more.  Someone said his baby, which I forgot about when starting this thread, that would be bad.  What about elayne and the prophecies about her.  Severed hand and hot irons.

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I think this topic is undermineing everything that that chapter was about.

It is not about the actual physical possibilites of "which is worse than which torture"

 

It is Rands emotional state that is important here. To him, it was the last that could be done to him. Nothing could push him further, he was at his emotional limit.

 

Frankly, this topic, to me, spits in the eye of the story with useless technicallity

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  I was thinking what if they had a girl go into rands rooms Mirrored like Elayne or aviendha, had that person hostage nearby so Rand would feel them close in the bond, then put a pleasure weave on that person, then had the girl sleep with Rand, then reveal the info in some dramatic way to Rand so it blows his mind.  Moraine had already learned that sleeping with Rand would be disasterous.  So we know this would be bad, that it would be possible, but it would be kinda convoluted.

 

 

 

 

I could see this happening if they had recruited Terry Goodkind instead of BS to write the last books, but they didn't.  I don't know of any other fantasy author with a huge hang up about sex and women acting like whores whether they mean it or not, or women acting like whores for means of survival, or men who are so virtuous that "accidentally" sleeping with the wrong woman would crush him.  In his series, and as far as I have read solely in his series, even the most virtuous woman has to let the 'ho out the cage, and men are so moral that when forced to act like the women in that world it will break them.

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I doubt that would break Rand, I mean, having them hostage would be an issue, but if he accidently slept with the wrong person, He's be upset, but not compared to nearly killing Min.  Perrin, it might crush him, though..

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I have one BIG issue with the dominion band chapter.

 

Perrin is said to need to be there twice for Rand else very bad things will happen to him. Domai's Wells was one. Shouldn't this have been the other? Yet Perrin is nowhere close.

 

The way the book concluded I can't see how another woman will come and hurt Rand.  Maybe it would be Egwene of all people when 'the Dragon knows her wrath'?

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I have one BIG issue with the dominion band chapter.

 

Perrin is said to need to be there twice for Rand else very bad things will happen to him. Domai's Wells was one. Shouldn't this have been the other? Yet Perrin is nowhere close.

 

Do you really think there will only be 2 times Rand will be in real Danger?

Perrin will need to save Rand twice, that doesn't mean Perrin will need to save Rand anytime he's in danger.

 

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I hate that people think because the mission was given to Graendal that she plays a role, or that what the Shadow wanted wasn't carried out already.

There is already another thread where people are trying to say Graendal didn't die because of that mission.

 

As a reader you were supposed to fear that they would break Rand.

Then they did it.

It just wasn't done by a Forsaken on the loose, it was done by a Forsaken that we had no reason to fear.

They made him emotionless, and single minded.

 

They almost succeeded. However, Rand faced that darkness and overcame it.

Forcing him to sleep with someone who he thinks is someone else is a really lame theory.

 

Breaking him again is pointless. He was already broken.

Now he knows how to bend instead of break.

 

We know the 3 wives don't get killed, from prophecy

 

On a side note, we don't know anything yet.

 

 

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Forcing him to kill a friend may be worst then potentially what has already happened. And I don't mean forcing like against his will. Say for instance Egwene was turned to the Shadow, became completely and utterly evil, and Rand was forced to kill her. I could definetly see that having detrimental effects.

 

However, as others pointed out, Rand was pushed to the breaking point and still managed to fight his way back. I can't see anything like that happening again. Graendal was given a task, but it isn't the first time that a Forsaken failed at their assigned role.

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I'm pretty sure people have in the real world have seen/gone through worse than rand has.  So i'm sure Rand hasn't been hit as hard as he could be.  If the shadow is still in the works trying to unhinge him, well they have alot of ground they can still cover.  As bad as he was, he wasn't that bad.  And he wasn't pushed over the edge, just almost.  Why would the shadow stop their plans just because we, the readers, were satisfied in how much he was pushed?  Hell, if they push him again, he might go for the TP again, or worse, as far as they know.

 

Anyway, I like the idea of tricking him into killing someone he loves, or as someone else said, forcing him to kill someone he loves because they turned to the shadow, for realy reals, no tricks.

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  I was thinking what if they had a girl go into rands rooms Mirrored like Elayne or aviendha, had that person hostage nearby so Rand would feel them close in the bond, then put a pleasure weave on that person, then had the girl sleep with Rand, then reveal the info in some dramatic way to Rand so it blows his mind.  Moraine had already learned that sleeping with Rand would be disasterous.  So we know this would be bad, that it would be possible, but it would be kinda convoluted.

 

Rand: Oh no! I got laid! Whatever will I do!!!!!!!

 

I have one BIG issue with the dominion band chapter.

 

Perrin is said to need to be there twice for Rand else very bad things will happen to him. Domai's Wells was one. Shouldn't this have been the other? Yet Perrin is nowhere close.

 

The way the book concluded I can't see how another woman will come and hurt Rand.  Maybe it would be Egwene of all people when 'the Dragon knows her wrath'?

 

I don't think that was the second time women who can channel hurt Rand. I've long theorized (as have many) that the second time will involve the Aes Sedai with the borderlanders. The Borderlanders have hung around too long for something not to be coming with them, and we know Tenobia and Bashere have to die for Perrin and Faile to gain the Broken Crown. They're all in the right area together...

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No, what ever is done to him, he cant go any worse than he was in 'The Last That Could Be Done'. In that chapter he was in the worst possible headspace, he was just completely cold and emotionless, there was no further he could go, no matter what was done to him, no matter what he was forced to do. He will spend the rest of his life rehabilitating from that state, him being plunged back into that headspace by another traumatic experiance would be a disaster for the light and they would lose with him like that anyway, so i dont see why people are dreaming up scenarios that would be worse than what has already happened to him, because no matter what, he would just return to that emotional state, its not possible to get anyworse than he was in that chapter. Seriously, if you guys didnt understand the signifigance of that chapter, you missed out on one of the most important scenes in the series

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A lot of you guys have no imagination.  Not starting a fight here, but you sound like teenagers.  Teenagers are always sure that whatever they're going through is soooo bad and the end of the world.  Most people I would call adults know that it can always get worse, and can usually imagine something worse than what's already happening.  Most people I know with kids (including myself) can imagine bad things, or have gone through bad things, but just thinking of something bad happening to my son is almost bad enough to unhinge me.  Nothing bothered me longer than a minute until he was born.  Now, if I imagine something happening to him, my mind can't see anything past him being gone.  If I had another kid, I think I'd be a wreck for a bit even still, and never fully recover.

 

So I'm positive that Rand can "say" nothing worse can be done, he can't sink any lower.  But the fact is that he wasn't emotionally distant at all, he still got mad at stuff, and was still getting hurt from the plight of people.  He can "say" nothing can be worse than almost hurting two people he loves, but actually hurting two people he loves would be worse for sure, and so could other things.

 

Now it's not in good taste to show us this, but it is something that could be mentioned as having happened or as a possibility and still be in good taste, but imagine a scene where rand is captured and one of the FS pulls Rands unborn baby out and feeds it to some trollocs right in front of him, that would be a "holy shit!" set the book down moment.

 

What if someone mirrored and compelled one of his honeys, then made her mask the bond, then tricked Rand into thinking it was like a renegade AS or something.  Or even just used used someone he loved as a body shield and let Rand accidentally do it.

 

We heard about the horrors the FS committed during the war of power in their own territories, but we haven't seen more than chaos and excess in this age so far.(the chaos is pretty bad on it's own though)

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Come on, it's a book...I don't want to see trollocs eating fetuses...fetii?

 

From a writing standpoint, it doesn't make sense to have this horrible thing happen to him, the purpose of which is to be the catalizing event that forces him to face what he has become and restore his sanity, only to have something worse happen, have him fall deeper than before, to have him turn around again...there's just not enough pages left in the books.  Of course worse things can happen, but he can't react worse than he did before, he'll actually feel his emotions and not bury them

 

And yes, he was emotionally distant.  The only emotion close to the surface was rage, the rest were far away.

 

So yeah, if they fed his unborn fetus to a trolloc, then tricked him into sleeping with that trolloc, it would mess him up.  But it's just not gonna happen.  That plot point has already happened and served its purpose, no need for it to happen again.

 

 

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Well I think everyone is probably right.  But that means it's a mistake in the plot, because it shouldn't stop just because it was resolved to the readers satisfaction.

 

Like if we all liked a book enough, all the trollocs could kill themselves, or just kinda disappear, and the dark one could just leave, or die, because everyone happened to be really satisfied with how the last book went.

 

There should be people trying to mess with Rand still, as someone else said, Grendal had weeks to at least start her orders to cause him trouble.

 

Oh well, no one else is interested in it then I guess we can find out later, becuase I agree it probably just something that will slip through the cracks.  Or be resolved after the LB.

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