[DPR Mafia] Suras 4 - Mafia wins!

[mmeeshal]

Which further lends support to the theory that there are probably mafia among each faction.

 

Clearly, if we are putting stock in Raisa's dream, not all Captains are good.  But not all Captains are bad, either, so let's not go on a killing spree of Captains if one turns out to be mafia.

 

**edit 2 new posts**

All I mean is that I don't know for sure how we can label Bova Perrada as mafia, and Beva Perrada as town.  Especially because of those manipulator people.  The Bova Perrada and his followers could be Town, trying to salvage their history and get back to what they feel they should be.  They could also be mafia just trying to usurp authority and take over.  The Beva Perrada could be Town, trying to stand up for order and continuity, or he could be mafia, maybe put in place by the unknown manipulators, maybe working under the direction of the current Minister, who has the goal of turning things to his own purposes.

 

Basically, I just don't see how we can say either group is right or wrong.  They have their own motivations, certainly the Bova Perrada and his followers don't seem to have sinister motives; he might, but that doesn't mean his followers know about that, just as perhaps those who support the Beva Perrada, as well as the current Minister, might be following a bad guy but may not realize it.

 

I don't think we can just point at someone's actions and say "You're evil." At least not in the story.  We don't have enough to go on, right now.  We don't know what's behind everyone's actions, what their motivations are, so that's why I think we can't assign a town or mafia alignment to either the Beva Perrada and his supporters, or to the Bova Perrada and his supporters.

 

Now, granted, the thought has crossed my mind that maybe, as Bonda Perrada indicates supporters of the Bova Perrada, so Captain indicates supporters of the Beva Perrada.  In that case, if the third faction is undecided or something, then I would agree that the Bova is mafia and the Beva is town.

 

HOWEVER, again, the supporters of each can't be privy to their leader's deepest thoughts, and could be following a bad guy without realizing it.

 

Sorry for the long post.  I really just think it's hasty to jump to conclusions about which group is mafia.

 

If we lynch Adella, who is, I'm assuming, Bonda Perrada, and she is mafia, then if we find another Bonda Perrada I say we lynch him/her, too.  That should help us determine whether or not faction is indicative of town/mafia alignment.

 

For now, I just want to point out that Bela was a Captain, and she was town:

 

9. Bela - Town - nightkilled N1

 

 

[LilyElizabeth]

Lily, why didn't you reveal this when day first started? You certainly posted then.

 

I have been deciding whether to come out with it or try a sneakier approach to getting her lynched, like a finder would if they weren't revealed. I like to sleep on these things.

[Pookie]

In the game rules:  "One candidate will be Town. The other candidate will be mafia."   So one of the Bova Perrada or the Beva Perrada is town and the other is mafia.  I suppose I could have it backwards and that the Beva is mafia and the Bova is town, but I understood that Raisa supports the minister and since the story is central to her it makes sense that she and the minister's candidate would be town.  We won't really know unless someone's willing to claim which it is either via a viewing result or via their role PM.

 

I also see rereading Bela's death scene that you are likely correct that "captain" doesn't mean no faction.  It states that she had nothing to do with the conflict (which to me means she was neither a Beva nor a Bova supporter) and that she was town.  Page 12 for those who want a re-read.

 

That post also states that if there's no majority the player with the most votes will be lynched, which is in the rules as well.  Does that mean that if "no lynch" has the most votes this time around there'll still be a death of the player with the most or is "no lynch" still usable?  I'm asking more for curiosity's sake than because I intend to use it.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]

[Barmacral]

That works for me Lily. [glow=red,2,300]Unvote Vote: Adella[/glow]

[LilyElizabeth]

That post also states that if there's no majority the player with the most votes will be lynched

 

I caught that, too. He didn't say that a no lynch was an option today.

 

 

Wes, can you address that?

[mmeeshal]

Der, forgot to do that.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Unvote[/glow]

[glow=red,2,300]Vote Adella[/glow]

[Barmacral]

 

I'll have a comprehensive post tonight, but for now, I'm just checking in from the road. Remember, No Lynch is always an option, and you won't need a majority to lynch. Whoever has the most votes wins. heh

 

Pretty sure he's not gonna stop us from a no lynch if thats what we really want to do. He'll just be way more creative in killing us then.

[Tigraine]

I'm with you on this Lily [glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]

 

I wonder if she will have anything to say on the matter.

[Barmacral]

BTW, according to Wes, you new people have no idea what he's about to do to you. Have fun!

[Talya]

I think it says in the first post that 'no Vote' is an option!

 

I think it would be too easy for Bova to mean mafia and Beva to mean Town. I have explained how that works way back. Also Wes says that you get Faction or Alignment. Maybe there is a toss of the coin and you can get either!  After all we are all Captains as we will be voting on who will take over as minister!

 

Something else. If all the mafia knew each other (10) why not use all your night kills on night one, and then you can control the game a lot more easier with fewer town out there. It maybe they don't actually know each other, maybe they just know a couple and are in groups. Considering the result we get on viewing and that we all have 1 night kill, suggests 10 people knowing each other could easily be seen as tipping it in the mafia's favour.

 

Information though is what we need right now, and this may sound callous, but if we vote for someone that we have an idea of their faction/alignment it may help us understand our viewing results more and give us information.

 

I'm not saying Lily is totally to be believed. But a lynch on Adella could give us a lot of info.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]

[JenLenaMom]

@Talya-without quoting the mod, from his wording they mean the same. I think he was using the wording we were throwing around on thread.

 

[glow=red,2,300]Adella[/glow]

[Talya]

Fairenough, but I just wanted to be sure, it would be a twist if we got different readins at the throw of the dice, lol..

[Barmacral]

Talya,

 

I think it is more likely that with a 3rd of the game in each group, each group will have likely been divided into smaller numbers of possibly mason groups or going solo. Wes has also set things up so that you can cast your vote at any time, so people could have cast their votes already, or might wait til the night before. So even if all 10 Bonda Perrada knew who each other were, they'd not know who has voted or not, nor would they know who amongst their own faction has voted, or who for. Anyone can vote for anyone, this means the Bonda Perrada could vote for the Beva Perrada to win if they wanted to.

[Talya]

I know thay can Barm, but if you are Mafia you will want YOUR guy to win! In that case by reducing those around you down and keeping your number as much as possible makes it a higher chance that Thier Guy will win. I would have thought that if you are Mafia, you are only going to win, if the Mafia guy wins! So they aren't going to vote anyone else.

 

I agree about the smaller groups, but I still think that the Mafia will be spread out amongst all the townies!

[LilyElizabeth]

I'm going to be out from about 4-7:30PM MST. I feel like I need to announce that. Must be the JN influence....lol. I'll check the thread between showering and leaving.

 

[ed2funy]

Could you all stop posting, so I can get my reread on?! >:(

[JenLenaMom]

I totally agree Talya, I wouldn't have put it past Wes I just didn't want us to go spinning away down the wrong path.

 

Sorry ed ;D

[Barmacral]

I know thay can Barm, but if you are Mafia you will want YOUR guy to win! In that case by reducing those around you down and keeping your number as much as possible makes it a higher chance that Thier Guy will win. I would have thought that if you are Mafia, you are only going to win, if the Mafia guy wins! So they aren't going to vote anyone else.

 

I agree about the smaller groups, but I still think that the Mafia will be spread out amongst all the townies!

 

The mafia will have to figure out who is town, and who is neutral. They'll have to thin out the town if they can, and recruit the neutral players. I think we're looking at a completely even playing field here. The scum don't have anything that we don't have, and both sides are even in numbers. Both sides are looking, I think, for the neutral captains to sway to their side.

[Talya]

I think I may have been a bit confused in what you said, I think you are meaning that those that are Bonda Paradda (could town or mixed) but they don't have to vote for Bova at the end of the game. i think I had mentioned that earlier, if that is what you are getting at. Thats what makes me think that we can't just assume that the Bova Peradda (Challenger) is Mafia. We have to decide that for ourselves, so, I agree, we may not vote for the person we were aligned to at the beginning (if we were aligned)

 

We do this just so you can read more Ed, makes up for the times we have had to read Ed Spam in a game ;)

 

Barm - They could chose to do it that way, or just elliminate ten people and go with just having the numbers. It would be a matter of maths, if 20 are left and 10 vote for their candidate, you can guarentee that at least one if not more will also vote theirs and so they have won. I know that is a simplified version and this is Wes's game so it won't be that simple for them. However I still thinking it telling that there was just one killing. I don't think they are talking to each other, at least not all of them together...I could be wrong, but thats how i see it!

[Talya]

Oh and Barm, This takes me back, I haven't had a good mafia discussion with you in so long :D

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

***LILY CASE****

 

 

Different isn't bad, Pandy, darling. I'll vote, but I don't think I need to vote with my "hello." Believe it or not, I've been too busy today to give this much thought. You seem a bit bloodthirsty to me, love. Luckily, my vote doesn't require much thought after that.

 

 

[glow=red,2,300]Pandy[/glow]

 

Calls Pandy bloodthirsty, while placing an opportunistic bandwagon vote.

 

Adella, you go from 'bad excuse' and 'slip up' to 'scummy' without quite explaining why and seemingly without due consideration. I understand why you consider my actions to not match up to the ideal, slow, methodical townie; yet it is a large jump from 'townie who focused on one person who did not vote' to 'mafioso who deliberately targeted one person'. I accept that you may be town wishing to judge my reaction to pressure, though the general tone of your post seems to me to indicate that you are more likely scum trying to get a wagon on an easy target. To indicate why, I shall first explain my observations of the game of mafia. These observations are the result of much playing of mafia - far too much, really, to be healthy.

 

Town wins by scumhunting - the process of finding mafia. Ideally, every townie should be doing this during the day to maximise their benefit to the town and therefore enhance their chances of winning. This involves voting for people, lynching people, and analysing reactions and behaviour of people involved in such. This is why I don't like it when people don't bother voting, especially given our 48 hour deadline.

 

Mafia win by devious manipulation of the town into mislynching, which they accomplish by pretending to scumhunt. Obviously, due to their alignment, they cannot actually scumhunt unless there are multiple teams of mafia in the game, and even then not very well. Since they cannot scumhunt, their play can at times be 'unnatural' as they try to fit in or steer the town (here we view scumhunting from another angle: the town's spotting of this unnatural behaviour leads to the mafia's downfall), and this - to get to the point - is what I fear that I see in Adella's play. She displays a lamentable lack of scumhunting and a regrettable surfeit of bandwagoning.

 

Woah, I hear you say! All this, Pandy, from a single vote? Aren't you moving a bit fast, becoming Mynd version II, stirring the grass to cut the snakes? Well... maybe. However, consider also her ridiculous accusation that Red and I are on the same team, trying to simultaneously lead the town in two different directions in the hope that one will stick - and this while she agrees that both Red and I have good points! Pah. Jeran - Lily - Adella. I'm calling it now.

 

The first part just feels really "not right" to me. It seems devious, but I'm not sure why.

 

Secondly, I'm calling you out on doing exactly that. You are building up to leading the town where you want us to go. I know I'm town. I'm guessing your other "suspects" are, too.

 

And third, NOT voting until later in the day on day one is my MO, so how exactly is that unnatural?

 

And fourth, wall of text. I hope people bother to read it. It drips scumminess to me.

 

 

Next you back up your vote by quoting this paragraph and saying it seems devious.

 

You further emphasize your point by saying Pandy is building up to leading, when it is only day one and he hasn’t been trying to lead, just mess around.

 

Sorry, Jeran, I'm not bandwagoning, and I'm finding it suspicious that you would say so. I spelled out my reasons pretty clearly, which are reasonably solid for day one. If Pandy flips scum, I'll look your way tomorrow. This looks like trying to save a teammate to me.

 

 

That seems like a pretty big over reaction. The position of your vote was a bandwagoning spot. I don’t see the solidarity of your vote, personally.

 

The teammate thing is a bit rash also.

 

Pandy, you know perfectly well that I can't out-argue you. Sadly, putting a little pressure on you didn't get me anything but the knowledge that you are a bit of an ass. (You know I mean that with all the love in the world.) I already was aware of this, so *sigh* [glow=red,2,300]Unvote[/glow]

 

You don't seem to be scummy, or no scummier than usual. And you know I can usually nail you when you are.

 

Jeran, however, does deserve a second look. That was an interesting jump to Pandy's defense. I'm going to muse over why that might be. If Pandy's not scum..... hmm, I need to think on this a bit. And reread the story.

 

So Jeran still needs looking into even though your initial reason for thinking him scum is now null and void.

 

 

*****TALYA FOS******

 

Her role fishing for a finder type role IMO is pretty scummy for day 1. More like a symp play pointing the mafia towards a nk target but scummy nevertheless.

 

Or she could be setting Lily up for her to fake claim finder. Either way it is a scummy move.

 

[Jeran]

[glow=red,2,300]Vote Adella[/glow]

 

This post:

I got a different result last night. Mine said Bonda Perrada. This is what Wes said about that:

"Bonda Perrada is a new term to Suras, (or, to my knowledge, anywehere else) and is the name given to those that support a leader who will attempt to overthrow the ruling Minister. This leader is known as the Bova Perrada. "

and this from the OP

I declare myself Bova Perrada. I will challenge the Minister’s reign, and by The First, I will take his seat and bring order and dignity back to The Hall! Will you join me, brothers? Will you become Bonds Perrada, and make our society as grand as it was meant to be? What say you…?”

tell us that the Captain challenging the Minister is Bova and his supporters are Bonda.  Therefore Bova and Bonda are the same side.  That should clear up some confusion (it has mine anyway)

 

Also the rules state the you may always vote no lynch.

[Barmacral]

Barm - They could chose to do it that way, or just elliminate ten people and go with just having the numbers. It would be a matter of maths, if 20 are left and 10 vote for their candidate, you can guarentee that at least one if not more will also vote theirs and so they have won. I know that is a simplified version and this is Wes's game so it won't be that simple for them. However I still thinking it telling that there was just one killing. I don't think they are talking to each other, at least not all of them together...I could be wrong, but thats how i see it!

 

It has been a while, hasn't it?

 

And the town can do exactly the same thing numbers wise. We have as many votes, we have as many night kills, as many protections and as many finder abilities. The biggest difference is that we can publicly be out here, they can't, they have to hide the fact that they are Bonda Perrada. If I had to guess, that might be balanced out with a night kill that gets shifted around each night, or else is balanced out with bonestone in some way. Wes hasn't actually told us anything about it yet.

[LilyElizabeth]

Pete, that is so incredibly rich! You are the one who taught me to poke at people and see how they react, then call me out for doing it? It's your favorite thing to do!

 

 

[Alys Kinch]

We don't have enough to go on, right now.  We don't know what's behind everyone's actions, what their motivations are, so that's why I think we can't assign a town or mafia alignment to either the Beva Perrada and his supporters, or to the Bova Perrada and his supporters.

So we don’t know enough to lynch anyone? Or we know we don’t know, so let’s just lynch at random until we hit something that tells us what to do? Trying to figure out where your sentiments are going.

 

Here’s a question. Will we only know who the candidates are at the end? Do we vote literally beva or bova or by person’s name or what? Cause it’s really losing me on the vote thing.

 

I think it would be too easy for Bova to mean mafia and Beva to mean Town. I have explained how that works way back.

Yes, but then again, it’s kind of wifom until we get more to go on. It’s only easy if you think he thinks you think…

 

If all the mafia knew each other (10) why not use all your night kills on night one, and then you can control the game a lot more easier with fewer town out there.

IMO, that’s easy. Why use them all at once? It’s like using a Tommy Gun when you need a sniper. You can cut down who you want when you want (barring protections) instead of point and shoot and hope to hit.

 

suggests 10 people knowing each other could easily be seen as tipping it in the mafia's favour.

I have also considered game balance. Usual balance is between 1/4-1/5, depending on other options, right? 10 is 1/3, albeit with 3 sets of 1/3. 10 seems largish per team. Agreeing with Barms here.

 

Both sides are looking, I think, for the neutral captains to sway to their side.

Starting to make more sense, I think.

 

Or she could be setting Lily up for her to fake claim finder. Either way it is a scummy move.

Given the nature of the suspected team structure, there may be quite a bit of symp action happening and I don’t think that will be enough of a call for action unless it’s a known mafia member- which there seems to be confusion about which faction represents. Maybe the current vote will help us out.

 

is balanced out with bonestone in some way. Wes hasn't actually told us anything about it yet

Wes, Sweetie, you promised us bonestone info later… When is later?

 

Since it is hard for a fake finder claim to be made in this set up, or at least, I’m second guessing one, I doubt Lily is lying. Just weird that she waited like that, but I remember my last game with her was a weird reveal too... [glow=red,2,300]unvote: Adella[/glow].

 

And do you people know how often I’ve had to reread just to post? (well, work accounts for some of the time…)