cadsuane 's impact

[supermanblue2001]

The failure to protect the Domination band was not hers. How should she be expected to protect against one of the Forsaken, much less a demonic Myrrdraal with unknown powers.

 

Since she knew that her enemies were the DO and the Chosen keeping the Denomination Band so close to Rand was at the very least rather shortsighted and foolish.

 

What she did was no different to what Rand did with Callandor in Tear. Inverted wardings have never been violated in the past. Not even the Forsaken have achieved it, and Mesaana would have in Tear if she could have, and so too would Sammael in Shadar Logoth.

 

That your enemy pulls some previously unknown and seemingly impossible thing doesn't make it shortsighted for you to not have guarded against it. Indeed, how could Cadsuane have possibly guarded against it? Shadar Haran taught Elza to break the wards, he mesmerized channeling guards on Semirhage... what other precautions could have taken that would have been successful?

 

Cadsuane was overcome. But through no failure of her own, and none other would have done better.

 

To equate:

 

a) Callandor, a flawed sa'angreal that was kept in a virtually inviolate fortress and wrapped in flows of inverted sai'din woven by the most powerful male channeler the world has seen since Lews Therin Telamon to...

 

b)the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam that was kept in the bedroom of a house that housed a Forsaken and dozens of other channelers any of whom might be Darkfriend's and protected by inverted flows of sai'dar from a strong only by the 3rd age standards Aes Sedai i.e. not that strong. A tool specifically designed to control the Dragon Reborn...

 

...is completely asinine. She would have been better off digging a hole in the stables and covering it in horse dung or tossing it in a volcano. It might not have been destroyed by bubbling lava but I doubt even Shaidar Haran can do laps in 2000 degrees.

 

The easiest secret to keep is the one only you know. Almost every channeler in that camp knew where the bracelets were. If Cadsuane had any sense she would have dropped them into a volcano. Better yet she could have opened a gateway walked around the back of it and thrown it to the ether for all eternity. Cadsuane screwed up because of her own prideful foolishness and nearly cost the Light it's only chance at victory. If Rand had done what should have been done, her head would already adorn a pike. Better yet if Amys and the Wise Ones had done it so much the better.

[supermanblue2001]

Wow that was rather rude of me. My apologies for being so harsh. I stand by my point but I think I could have delivered it in a more politic manner.

[Luckers]

An inverted warding is an inverted warding, and with Cadsuane's angreal it would be set at stronger than Rand's. Rand asked Cadsuane to keep them safe and she did no less than he would have done himself.

 

You can hate Cadsuane till your spleen bursts, but she did nothing wrong here.

 

To equate:

 

a) Callandor, a flawed sa'angreal that was kept in a virtually inviolate fortress and wrapped in flows of inverted sai'din woven by the most powerful male channeler the world has seen since Lews Therin Telamon to...

 

b)the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam that was kept in the bedroom of a house that housed a Forsaken and dozens of other channelers any of whom might be Darkfriend's and protected by inverted flows of sai'dar from a strong only by the 3rd age standards Aes Sedai i.e. not that strong. A tool specifically designed to control the Dragon Reborn...

 

...is completely asinine.

 

Hmm. Let's break this down.

 

1. "Callandor, a flawed sa'angreal" vs. "the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam"

 

What is the relevance of this in comparing the situation?

 

2. "in a virtually inviolate fortress" vs. "in the bedroom of a house that housed a Forsaken and dozens of other channelers any of whom might be Darkfriend's"

 

Virtually inviolate to armies. Mesaana was wandering around your fortress willy-nilly, and states directly that the only reason she didn't take anything were that they were protected by wardings. And there must be at least as many Darkfriends living in the stone as in that house.

 

But more curiously, what is the distinction your making? That the sword was more secure than the Domination Band because it was in a fortress? It was secure only because it was protected by wardings, and those wardings would not hold up to Shadar Haren any more than Cadsuane's did. It is exactly the same situation--wardings protecting something that would be incredibly dangerous should it fall into the Shadow's hands.

 

3, "wrapped in flows of inverted sai'din woven by the most powerful male channeler the world has seen since Lews Therin Telamon to..." vs. "protected by inverted flows of sai'dar from a strong only by the 3rd age standards Aes Sedai i.e. not that strong."

 

Firstly, with her angreal Cadsuane is stronger than Rand. Secondly strength has little to do with it. Rand's warding's would have stood up no more than Cadsuane's did.

 

4. "..." vs. "A tool specifically designed to control the Dragon Reborn..."

 

Hmm. A fair handed argument indeed. Firstly, the a'dam was not designed specifically to control the Dragon Reborn. Simply having it in your hands doesn't immediately transfer control of the Dragon to you. Yes, it is a danger to the Dragon--but then if the Shadow took Callandor, one of the most powerful sa'angreal ever made--would that not have been a danger to the Dragon? Was not Rand risking the world by leaving it around were it could be taken. Did not Rand then screw up because of his 'own prideful foolishness' in thinking his wardings were enough?

 

It's exactly the same situation. Both used wardings which, absent a certain unique individual whose abilities were unheard of, would have been fine. Why is then Cadsuane the over-proud fool, and Rand... cool.

 

...is completely asinine

 

... is completely not an alright thing to say about another person's argument. Don't do it again.

 

She would have been better off digging a hole in the stables and covering it in horse dung or tossing it in a volcano. It might not have been destroyed by bubbling lava but I doubt even Shaidar Haran can do laps in 2000 degrees.

 

No but he could have simply gone and taken another one from the Seanchan. Cadsuane did the right thing. They needed to be studied. Her disposing of that one would have altered nothing, and perhaps if Rand had been more clear-headed, her studying them might have helped the next time they were used against him. Because there was always going to be a next time.

 

 

[supermanblue2001]

...is completely asinine

 

... is completely not an alright thing to say about another person's argument. Don't do it again.

 

 

I had already apologized for my statement. Your response was as rude and unwarranted in it's own way as mine was in the first place. I am allowed to consider a point of view foolish or silly and say so as long as I am not personally attacking you which I wasn't. I was, and am, disagreeing with your viewpoint and nothing more.

[Jeangray]

 

the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam that was kept in the bedroom of a house that housed a Forsaken and dozens of other channelers any of whom might be Darkfriend's and protected by inverted flows of sai'dar from a strong only by the 3rd age standards Aes Sedai i.e. not that strong.

 

Some essential points already made by others, but which I'd like to stress:

 

Semiraghe had the copies of the Domination Band made somehow. It wasn't some unique artifact that couldn't be replicated anymore. Which means that disposing of all the Domination Bands Rand and Co.  have taken from her would have changed zip.

Which, incidentally, was the reason _why_ Cadsuane insisted on trying to find the ways of counter-acting them - because like a'dam, they could be used against male channelers, including Rand, at any time. 

 

And what difference does it make whether the Band was or wasn't in the same house, when agents of the Shadow can Travel? They just used the ones in Cadsuane's keeping to compromise her in case Semiraghe failed. Or maybe the plan-maker(s) never really intended for her to succeed - like with Rand's kidnapping by Galina and Co.

 

I have to disagree re: wards though. IMHO, some wards are better than others and some channelers are better at making/dismantling wards than others. We have seen Rand's and Asmo's fight break the wards of Rhuidean, for instance. So, Cadsuane's wards probably were worse than Rand's or the ward over Callandor.   

 

 

 

[Fains nose]

I just wanna see her deceased... BAD

[supermanblue2001]

An inverted warding is an inverted warding, and with Cadsuane's angreal it would be set at stronger than Rand's. Rand asked Cadsuane to keep them safe and she did no less than he would have done himself.

 

You can hate Cadsuane till your spleen bursts, but she did nothing wrong here.

 

First: I would like to point out that Rand rewove the wards on Callandor in LoC Ch 28 [1]. It seems unlikely that Rand would not have used the little fat man angreal to reweave the protections on Callandor. He hadn't yet been captured by Galina and still possessessed it at that point. Even without the fat man angreal I see no evidence to indicate that Cadsuane's angreal places her strength above Rand. Rand needed a full 13 to capture him. Cadsuane's angreal doesn't multiply her strength that much.

 

Second: The issue of strength vs a Myrddraal. We know that Myrddraal can sense wards woven of the OP. By warding the box so heavily Cadsuane practically rang a dinner bell for Shaidar Haran or any other Myrrdraal close enough to feel them.

 

Third: I don't hate Cadsuane. I actually enjoy her greatly. Her ability to admit her errors is a rarity among Aes Sedai but doesn't excuse the fact that she failed in what Rand asked her.

 

Fourth: Inversion of wards doesn't make them infallible. Lanfear even said that she doesn't need to see something to unravel it. I you are wrapped up in an inverted web of air you can defeat it if you know how.

 

Fifth: We don't know how Shaidar Haran's powers work. If he can simply unravel the OP like Mat's medallion then why not walk in and club whomever he want's over the head and leave with them?

 

Sixth: My real issue is with her decision not to keep the Domination Band but to keep it so close to Rand. I would liken it to building your house under industrial power lines. Sure you can get electrocuted anywhere by bolts of lightning but it's much more likely that one of those wires will fall on your home.

 

Seventh: This doesn't remove Rand from responsibility for his actions. His foolishness has gotten him in trouble dozens of times and he has had to pay for it. He's missing a hand, can't see too well, and his soul has been poisoned by choosing to use the True Power repeatedly.

 

To equate:

 

a) Callandor, a flawed sa'angreal that was kept in a virtually inviolate fortress and wrapped in flows of inverted sai'din woven by the most powerful male channeler the world has seen since Lews Therin Telamon to...

 

b)the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam that was kept in the bedroom of a house that housed a Forsaken and dozens of other channelers any of whom might be Darkfriend's and protected by inverted flows of sai'dar from a strong only by the 3rd age standards Aes Sedai i.e. not that strong. A tool specifically designed to control the Dragon Reborn...

 

Hmm. Let's break this down.

 

1. "Callandor, a flawed sa'angreal" vs. "the Domination Band, a cuendillar like version of an a'dam"

 

What is the relevance of this in comparing the situation?

 

The relevance of this comparison was in the entirety of the description that a even sa'angreal as powerful as Callandor can be defeated or run from. Once a collar is around your neck you're basically lopar food. (unless you have access to the TP owing to a touching of balefire streams with a reincarnated Forsaken. But honestly when has that ever happened... :)

 

[1]  http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/callandor.html

 

[Jeangray]

 

Sixth: My real issue is with her decision not to keep the Domination Band but to keep it so close to Rand.

 

Why is that relevant? It isn't like anybody could have gotten Cadsuane's DB on a whim - it took quite a bit of planning and preparation and required participation of DO's very own avatar. They only took the one from Cadsuane to compromise her, not because they had to. And she was right to want to test it.

 

IMHO, her keeping Choedan Kal under the same insufficient wards was much more of a problem. It was "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, since she was right to think that Rand shouldn't have it, the state he was in. But still, everybody was massively lucky that the Shadow's plan involved leaving it behind.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Why is that relevant? It isn't like anybody could have gotten Cadsuane's DB on a whim - it took quite a bit of planning and preparation and required participation of DO's very own avatar.

 

The problem is that she should have known that the forsaken if not the DO would have bben very interested in getting the Dominion Band in their hands. Leaving it so close to Rand was just dumb.

[Lambada]

Why is that relevant? It isn't like anybody could have gotten Cadsuane's DB on a whim - it took quite a bit of planning and preparation and required participation of DO's very own avatar.

 

The problem is that she should have known that the forsaken if not the DO would have bben very interested in getting the Dominion Band in their hands. Leaving it so close to Rand was just dumb.

 

If she had taken it away from Rand, all the Forsaken would need to do would be weave a gateway after obtaining it. Very little gain there.

Yet, it would mean that Cadsuane would be unable to keep a close eye on it, and she'd have to find someone else she trusts completely to keep a close eye on it. Bear in mind, that Cadsuane only really trusts herself - she might respect Sorilea to a degree, but respect is not the same as trust.

 

Whereas keeping it close, meant there was Cadsuane herself, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Asha'men all with the chance to spot something odd - such as someone emerging from Cadsuanes rooms. Yes, we know it didn't work, but it certainly had a better chance of keeping it protected than removing it from her vicinity.

[supermanblue2001]

If she had taken it away from Rand, all the Forsaken would need to do would be weave a gateway after obtaining it. Very little gain there.

Yet, it would mean that Cadsuane would be unable to keep a close eye on it, and she'd have to find someone else she trusts completely to keep a close eye on it. Bear in mind, that Cadsuane only really trusts herself - she might respect Sorilea to a degree, but respect is not the same as trust.

 

Whereas keeping it close, meant there was Cadsuane herself, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Asha'men all with the chance to spot something odd - such as someone emerging from Cadsuanes rooms. Yes, we know it didn't work, but it certainly had a better chance of keeping it protected than removing it from her vicinity.

 

If she had hidden it in a secret location known only to her it would have been virtually impossible for anyone to find. Again I reiterate that the fewer people who know a secret the fewer who can tell. The best way to protect it would have been for no one to know it's existence. How many of those Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Asha'man are DF's? That's completely discounting all the servants of the house, troops in the tents, and the Warders. They might not have been able to retrieve the bands but they can certainly tell someone who can retrieve them where they are hidden.

[Lambada]

If she had taken it away from Rand, all the Forsaken would need to do would be weave a gateway after obtaining it. Very little gain there.

Yet, it would mean that Cadsuane would be unable to keep a close eye on it, and she'd have to find someone else she trusts completely to keep a close eye on it. Bear in mind, that Cadsuane only really trusts herself - she might respect Sorilea to a degree, but respect is not the same as trust.

 

Whereas keeping it close, meant there was Cadsuane herself, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Asha'men all with the chance to spot something odd - such as someone emerging from Cadsuanes rooms. Yes, we know it didn't work, but it certainly had a better chance of keeping it protected than removing it from her vicinity.

 

If she had hidden it in a secret location known only to her it would have been virtually impossible for anyone to find. Again I reiterate that the fewer people who know a secret the fewer who can tell. The best way to protect it would have been for no one to know it's existence. How many of those Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, and Asha'man are DF's? That's completely discounting all the servants of the house, troops in the tents, and the Warders. They might not have been able to retrieve the bands but they can certainly tell someone who can retrieve them where they are hidden.

 

From what I can recall Rand only knew Cadsuane had it. Not where. And Cadsuane only showed Sorilea.

Thus very few people knew anyway.

If we take the view that Sorilea is a Darkfriend, then it was Cadsuane's decision to show her that lead to it's use. If not, then obviously the Forsaken could have found it where-ever it was (e.g. perhaps through need in T'a'R).

[supermanblue2001]

I believe it was found due to the wardings placed on it. Myrddraal can sense wards. If we take it that the Forsaken could just find it by feel then Moggy or one of the other Forsaken would have had it in Tanchico. If they can sense them then there must be within a certain proximity to the object.

[CUBAREY]

If she had taken it away from Rand, all the Forsaken would need to do would be weave a gateway after obtaining it. Very little gain there.

 

Weving a gateway into a room where Rand is present (or anywhere close to him) would have required a lot of more cordination and would have been a lot more risky. Keeping it so close made rescuing Semi, stealing the band and capturing Rand in operation possible.

[Lambada]

If she had taken it away from Rand, all the Forsaken would need to do would be weave a gateway after obtaining it. Very little gain there.

 

Weving a gateway into a room where Rand is present (or anywhere close to him) would have required a lot of more cordination and would have been a lot more risky. Keeping it so close made rescuing Semi, stealing the band and capturing Rand in operation possible.

Not really. Do a Gateway to the room where Elza (A dark-friend) sleeps. Easy enough to arrange for her to be in the room with no servants at the appointed time. Almost certain that no-one is there. Emerge as a servant.

[supermanblue2001]

A seven foot tall Myrddraal servant?

[Lambada]

A seven foot tall Myrddraal servant?

Myrdraal can use shadows - bypassing the gateways altogether.

Shaidar Haran infiltrated the camp anyway - to free Semirhage.

then Elza gave Semirhage the Domination Band.

Nothing would change if it wasn't located nearby - other than SH using one more ShadowTravel trick.

[TheAngryDruid]

Really, I don't understand all the Cadsuane hate.

 

She's saved Rand multiple times.

 

Her aloofness from Rand and seeming not to care about him is just a ruse to keep him interested in her, one that worked, by the way.

 

She and her band of AS have saved his life at least twice (Samitsu's healing in Cairhein and the protection during the cleansing). And this is not even counting saving the whole world by bringing Tam to him when he was losing his soul and becoming inhuman.

 

Most think her arrogant, but she knows full well AS can be wrong, and overcome, that's how she got the ornaments. She thinks rating people on strength is silly and wasteful. She and her group didn't bat an eye about bonding Asha'man. She is often direct and blunt in her dealings. No shadings or any such.

 

Hardly a hateful woman. Yes, she was harsh with Tam, and a bit too full of herself, but compared to virtually everyone else (Rand, Tuon, Egwene, Elayne, Faile, even Mat), she ranks pretty low on the acting self-important scale. Other than Tuon, Rand is the king of acting like an @ss, manhandling people, etc.

 

Yet everyone loves him. Makes no sense to me at all.

 

I like the theory she'll be the first AS to free herself from the oaths, but I don't think this necessarily means she joins the Kin. I think a new way will have to be hammered out with Egwene. I think she'll be a force in putting some common sense back into the tower (oaths, determining precedence, etc).

 

 

[Jeangray]

The problem is that she should have known that the forsaken if not the DO would have bben very interested in getting the Dominion Band in their hands. Leaving it so close to Rand was just dumb.

 

Why? There are more where Semiraghe's copies came from. They didn't need to use the one Cadsuane had, in fact it probably made the things more complicated for them.

She was 100% right that the Domination Band should have been investigated and tested. She was testing an a'dam on herself too, after all.

 

I don't like Cadsuane, personally, but really Rand's collaring wasn't her fault.

[metalisticpain]

I hope Moiraine comes back, gives cadsuane a scathing look and supplants her so completely as rand's advisor that cadsuane is left reeling from the shock :P

 

I dont want cadsuane and Moiraine to be pillow friends all of a sudden.

 

Cadsuane had huge roles in keeping rand sane, but she is now where near as good as morraine would have been, and I hope she has a role thats beneath Moiraine in impact, importance and whatever :)

 

im a Moiraine fanboy so maybe im a touch bias :P

 

[OptimusPrime]

I think Cadsuane had a lot going for her as Rands advisor. Never as much as Moiraine, Moiraine has too much to teach, but Cadsuane has dealt with male channelers a lot and generally felt like a tough, experienced Aes Sedai with ver high standards, and I looked forward to a time where Rand and Cadsuane got past the bickering side-although that was both entertaining and necessary.

 

KoD, when I first read it, was fantastic with the introduction of the Semirhage-Cadsuane thread. That could and should have been more awesome than it was. I actually feel a bit sorry for Cadsuane. She a) had a lot of thunder, which flopped, and b) got exiled for something she had lost all control over, what with Shaidar turning up. Having said that though, that sense of awesomeness about Cadsuane really grew a lot in KoD yet now its gone, somehow I cant shake the feeling that she had an opportunity to actually match Moiraine in awesomeness.

[Duskfire]

I don't know, I am one of those who think Moiraine is a bit overrated and am firmly in the Cadsuane camp. I am rereading the series at the moment and Moiraine is constantly wrong, she constantly assumes this and that, she is to some extent the epitome of an Aes Sedai, albeit a powerful and intelligent one. Thats not to say she is a horrible character, just that I really don't see what she did to warrant such strong fan devotion.

 

What I love about Cadsuane is that she doesn't care about the WT. She is helping Rand purely because for his and the worlds sake. There is none of her own glory there, none for the Whitetower, nothing like that. She is also one of the few Aes Sedai who regards other Aes Sedai on their own merits and skills, as opposed to their strength in the One Power. She is also one of the few Aes Sedai who respects the Wise Ones and the Asha`man, and who isn't entirely dismissive of the Sea Folk. In fact, she is the one who pressures Rand into keeping his bargain with them.

 

She may be manipulative and arrogant and sometimes a bit of a bully, but she needs to be those things to face up to Rand. Whatever people may say, Rand was a bit of a dick in TGS. She grew frustrated because all she had taught him - about treating others with respect, of keeping your word and your bargains - was on the verge of crumbling. Heck, he even treated Rhuarc like dirt, who is as devoted a follower as you can get. No wonder she was getting frustrated!

 

She suggested to the Asha`man that they should bond her Aes Sedai. She organised everyone at the Cleansing.

 

Haters can hate, but make no mistake: Cadsuane is arguably one of the more important characters in the last few books. Rand would be far far worst of without her.

[DemandredFO]

AngryDruid, that was Damar that saved Rand's life in Cairhein.

Also Cadsuane seems to be one of the few greens that can organize a battle

[Jemlin]

It doesn't matter if Moraine was wrong or made mistakes.  She is the first woman on Rand's "women I am going to cry about" list. She is also the one Aes Sedai he says he could Trust (with a capital T). She is also the ONLY Aes Sedai who we have heard quote surrendering Saidar when referring to dealing with Rand.  She ultimately has had the best success (as an Aes Sedai) getting points across to Rand, seconded only by Nynaeve and Caddy.  For THAT, she is needed and important. Who cares a fig if she made mistakes.

 

Anywho...I think that when Moraine comes back she won't be the head Aes Sedai advidor anymore.  Caddy will remain so, and when she goes it will probably be Nynaeve. Moraine will, IMHO do something else to help save Rand.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Yea, I have to agree with Jemlin here, although I do also like Cadsuane, the argument is invalid.

 

Its like saying Rand isnt worthy of being the DR because he was a Farmer....

 

Like Rand, Moiraine learned (surrender like Saidar etc..) its not about the mistakes she made, but that she learned and improved herself. She is the only one he trusts, beacuse she, uunlike many AS, put away her pride and did the right thing.

 

Christ! She became little more than his servant (if he wished to) and sacrificed herself, not knowing if thom and mat would succeed, so i dont see how she isnt a hero