What's In The Future For Graendal?

[bubbified]

Ya Rands luck played a part.  She should've realized he was right outside and hightailed it out.  She didn't want to fight him, so she wouldn'tve stuck around if she knew he was sitting outside.  Rands luck could easily have been enough to snare her there.  It turns a 1 in 1000 chance into reality.  It was a low chance that she wouldn't deduce he was right side, and it was 0 chance that she'd risk balefire.  So the thing that makes the most sense is that she's toast.

[Jeangray]

Counter-counter argument:

Nynaeve would have seen any residue given that Graendal cannot unravel weaves.

 

This could only be any kind of argument if you could quote Nynaeve ever seeing a residue. But you can't. 

 

If she intended to kill Rand, she'd have sent a trap within the man, so that it blew up when touched by the OP or when the man was delved, or some other trigger and effect like that. 

 

But Graendal was forbidden under threat of dire consequences (see TGS prologue), to as much as hurt Rand physically, leave alone try to kill him. She was completely defenseless against him. 

[water_seeker]

A quick point about residues...the Gateway residue Avi is worried about is out in the middle of nowhere whereas the Compulsion weave is in Ramshalans head.  Nynaeve can't see if there's a residue there just by looking (just as she can't see the Compulsion just by looking) so she has to check for the weave by delving.  Can delving detect a residue?  IMHO, no it can't...not one that's meant to check for a weave anyway.

[yoniy0]

The question is moot. Nyneave tells us that the Compulsion in Ramshalan's head is different than the one in that poor little boy's head, but by her own account it's similar in scale (if it were much lighter she would not have said 'perhaps more subtle'). Every instance of someone suffering Compulsion we've seen, even as light as what Moghedien used on the supergirls, leaves them dumbfounded for several minutes, and that's if it doesn't leave any permanent damage (see Elza's as an intermediate case).

Hence, even if Nyneave didn't (or couldn't) read residues in Ramshalan's head, she should have been able to see the effects of such heavy compulsion on his mind (or simply notice it in his demeanor). Yet, he behaves normally (for someone in his position. After all, what Rand just did scared even Nyneave, and Ramshalan isn't as familiar with the True Source).

 

BTW I have to comment on the remark made on the last page, regarding the possibility that Graendal would impersonate one of Rand's girlfriends and come to him. Hilarious. Not the least bit possible (their link prevents it), but hilarious nonetheless.

[Sharaman]

The question is moot. Nyneave tells us that the Compulsion in Ramshalan's head is different than the one in that poor little boy's head, but by her own account it's similar in scale (if it were much lighter she would not have said 'perhaps more subtle'). Every instance of someone suffering Compulsion we've seen, even as light as what Moghedien used on the supergirls, leaves them dumbfounded for several minutes, and that's if it doesn't leave any permanent damage (see Elza's as an intermediate case).

Hence, even if Nyneave didn't (or couldn't) read residues in Ramshalan's head, she should have been able to see the effects of such heavy compulsion on his mind (or simply notice it in his demeanor). Yet, he behaves normally (for someone in his position. After all, what Rand just did scared even Nyneave, and Ramshalan isn't as familiar with the True Source).

 

BTW I have to comment on the remark made on the last page, regarding the possibility that Graendal would impersonate one of Rand's girlfriends and come to him. Hilarious. Not the least bit possible (their link prevents it), but hilarious nonetheless.

 

This could actually mean that the compulsion was dissipated earlier - in the period between Nyn's first examination and the balefiring. So, Ramshalam (who is a confused idiot anyway) has had time to recover before the second exam.

Anyhow, he is so gobsmacked by Rand's knowledge of his conversations and previous plotting that he is stammering and muttering anyway. I don't think you can draw any conclusions from Ramshalam's behaviour.

 

 

[Jeangray]

Every instance of someone suffering Compulsion we've seen, even as light as what Moghedien used on the supergirls, leaves them dumbfounded for several minutes,

 

Moghedien and Cyndane were not dumbfounded in the least after Graendal Compelled them ;).

[yoniy0]

Every instance of someone suffering Compulsion we've seen, even as light as what Moghedien used on the supergirls, leaves them dumbfounded for several minutes,

 

Moghedien and Cyndane were not dumbfounded in the least after Graendal Compelled them ;).

I actually thought of that exact scene before posting. I don't think that you can say that. All you know is that they kneeled before SH when he appeared. I'd expect them to do so regardless of whether or not they're confused at the time. You can see that their response was instinctive. The birds in the room clearly had the same response.

[Treemaster]

After reading the Gathering Storm, I was sure that Graendal was dead.  But, I'm doing a reread now, and in the chapter "Threads Woven From Shadow," in Lord of Chaos, Sammael repeatedly speculates on what Graendal would do if caught, including that she would flee and reestablish herself elsewhere, and weave compulsion so fine that it could not be detected without extensive skill.  (I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the books with me.)  This seems obvious foreshadowing on Robert Jordan's part as to what Granedal would do if caught, so now I'm leaning on the side of her not being dead.

[Treemaster]

Here's the quote:

 

"She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind’s path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her."

[Neemo]

but did she even know rand was coming? i thought he just went there and blasted the palace to oblivion with balefire....i only read TGS once so far though so my memory may be hazy on the subject

[Jemlin]

Here's the quote:

 

"She used Compulsion so often like a hammer that one might forget that she could wield the weaker forms of it with great delicacy, twisting a mind’s path so subtly that even the closest examination might miss every trace of her."

 

Aye, though I am partial to thinking Nynaeve might be able to trace it, being that she is an extremely talented healer and that she has unwoven Graendal's weaves before, and might be able to detect them.

 

*shrugs* Who knows though. =]

[Demiandre]

The exact quote is, as you can read, "trace of her" not "it"

so Nynaeve seeing it is normal. And she saw that those weaves were subtler than those on the candler's apprentice. I think it is refering to the way the person compelled will react. Except witj saidar (so a man won't see, and all non-channeler women, at that) the weave and it would be almost impossible to see the person would be under compulsion, and if they found out, you could not trace her, because of her prudence.

 

It is the way I understand the quote

[Owayn The Traveller]

After reading the Gathering Storm, I was sure that Graendal was dead.  But, I'm doing a reread now, and in the chapter "Threads Woven From Shadow," in Lord of Chaos, Sammael repeatedly speculates on what Graendal would do if caught, including that she would flee and reestablish herself elsewhere, and weave compulsion so fine that it could not be detected without extensive skill.  (I'm paraphrasing, as I don't have the books with me.)  This seems obvious foreshadowing on Robert Jordan's part as to what Granedal would do if caught, so now I'm leaning on the side of her not being dead.

 

Ya that got me thinking as well. Don't know if you could trust Sammael judge of character though. Wasn't Greandal always going on about how easily led he could be?

[Luckers]

Ya that got me thinking as well. Don't know if you could trust Sammael judge of character though. Wasn't Greandal always going on about how easily led he could be?

 

He did seemingly manage to get the upper hand with her, so he can't be a complete dupe.

 

 

[bubbified]

Ya so far we haven't seen proof of her amazing amazingness, only of her excesses, and her blunders.  According to the info we have, she would've ran instead of trying to play games, if she thought she was in danger.  Games were obviously attempted, it shows she failed to realize how much danger she was in, and got dead.  It isn't a matter of her skill with weaves and what she could do, it just comes down to whether or not she thought she was in danger.

 

And yes, we didn't see a body (not that we would with BF), so we can always RAFO.

 

Is there a thread on what the new Rand will be like, and what he'll do being his new self?

[yoniy0]

Actually, we've seen her manipulate Ituralde, and sabotaging Rand's attempts to bring order back to Arad Doman (and presumably she was the one to start all the chaos there in the first place, when she kidnapped Alsalam and sent all those letters).

We've also seen her reaction when she first met Shaidar Haran, and compared with other Forsaken she handled it well (SH himself comments on that).

Last but not least, she's remained hidden for a long time, but not for lack of action, just due to her subtle ways.

[Sharaman]

In terms of actual damage Asmo, Semi and Graendal have done the most harm to the Light.

The Aiel, the Seanchan (plus Rand's hand=head) and Arad Doman being complete messes that Rand had to waste a lot of time and resources to sort out. He's given up on Arad Doman and pretty much given up on the Seanchan.

 

Sammael, Rahvin and Belal actually helped Rand. They cleared the "rubble" of established monarchies so that when Rand got rid of them, various major kingdoms immediately fell into his hands.

 

Mesaana, Aran'gar and Osan'gar have been near-misses - maybe Mesaana smashing up the WT has been useful for GLoD. 

 

Demandred ? - The Borderlanders maybe, though it remains to be seen whether he's actually done something useful by pulling them South of the Blight.

Lanfear - ? Not much.

Moggy -?  Not much.

Ishamael-Moridin??

 

[yoniy0]

Oh come on. You can't seriously doubt Ishamael's contribution, can you? I mean, we don't know his end game since TEotW, but before that, he had some great deeds to his credit. Graendal admits as much in the prologue of TGS.

Also, I'm not entirely convinced that the whole Shaido mess would have been prevented had Asmodean not marked Couladin with the Dragons.

Finally, Lanfear orchestrated a trap for Rand that would've been very dangerous had events played out another way. I count that as a close call as well.

[Thor]

Ishamael caused the fall of Hawkwing's empire and also innitiated the Trolloc Wars which ended the Ten Nations.

 

If that is not contribution to the shadow, I don't know what is.

[bubbified]

Ya, I think Ishy has been the major player on the shadows side.  Greandal hasn't done anymore than any of the others.  They each took hold of a nation, but Sammual, Rahvin, and Belal all died before they could do anything with their nations.  Grendal has had 2, 4, and 8 times the amount of time to work with her country than they did.  Even with x2 the amount of time, Greandal only created war and poverty in her land. Where Sammual only created War, poverty might've been soon to follow if he'd had as much time.  He might've also turned those armies into something useful.  Rahvin was in the process of recreating his armies.

 

I guess grendal has done more than Lanfear and Moghedian.

 

If you say grendal had more time because she was sneakier, you are probably wrong in most cases.  Grendal chose an easy assignment, and no one cared about it till book 12, that's why she lived so long.  The others were all active in areas that put them in danger.  Mesanna has a dangerous roll, so did Belal, and by chance so did Samual and Rahvin.  So did lanfear and Azmo, since both put themselves with WOs and Rand.

 

Moghedian sucked for the first few books, and pretty much did nothing besides fight with the wonder girls, who knows if she did anything else at all.  She was probably the worst out of all of them.

 

I'm guessing that Demondrad has been working on something big, so I'm guessing he did a lot more than Greandal.

 

All greandal did was kick an anthill over and over while the others got in real scrapes over the lands they chose (or were assigned to).  If rand hadn't stepped in, all of them would've been nearly or completely unopposed.

[yoniy0]

bubbified, I have to ask. Is there a female character in the books that you like?

[Duskfire]

If you say grendal had more time because she was sneakier, you are probably wrong in most cases.  Grendal chose an easy assignment, and no one cared about it till book 12, that's why she lived so long.  The others were all active in areas that put them in danger.  Mesanna has a dangerous roll, so did Belal, and by chance so did Samual and Rahvin.  So did lanfear and Azmo, since both put themselves with WOs and Rand.

 

I think Graendal is a bit overrated as well; however, what she did is what normal people would call smart. Rather then put herself in harms way like the other idiot Forsaken, she placed herself in an area of no consequence and went to work. And another thing; Sammael had been trying to provoke Rand into attacking him for ages. Really, its his own fault that attention was directed toward him eventually by Rand. Same with Rahvin, Lanfear and Asmodean. Its their own fault they are all dead (or were dead in the case of Lanfear.) Placing themselves in such a dangerous position doesn't mean they were better; just that they were either alot more confident of taking on Rand or just stupid.

 

 

[Owayn The Traveller]

Seemingly Luckers, seemingly.

[Thor]

If you say grendal had more time because she was sneakier, you are probably wrong in most cases.  Grendal chose an easy assignment, and no one cared about it till book 12, that's why she lived so long.  The others were all active in areas that put them in danger.  Mesanna has a dangerous roll, so did Belal, and by chance so did Samual and Rahvin.  So did lanfear and Azmo, since both put themselves with WOs and Rand.

 

I think Graendal is a bit overrated as well; however, what she did is what normal people would call smart. Rather then put herself in harms way like the other idiot Forsaken, she placed herself in an area of no consequence and went to work. And another thing; Sammael had been trying to provoke Rand into attacking him for ages. Really, its his own fault that attention was directed toward him eventually by Rand. Same with Rahvin, Lanfear and Asmodean. Its their own fault they are all dead (or were dead in the case of Lanfear.) Placing themselves in such a dangerous position doesn't mean they were better; just that they were either alot more confident of taking on Rand or just stupid.

 

 

 

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

[Duskfire]

Sammael had nothing to fear of Rand though. If not for Morridin, Rand would have died.

 

That still doesn't change what he did wasn't exactly incredibly smart. Directly disobeying the Dark One could be seen as a bit idiotic :P