Queen Moiraine

[darth_hel]

She was willing to give up the throne to Dyelin, Dyelin said the only way she'd make a claim for it was if Elayne were dead.

[a5m]

Power is the only thing people (not just the low people, but the upperclass as well) respect in these books.  That being said, Elayne is a tyrant who started a war because "it was her right", but Deylan commanded just as much respect, AND people would've accepted her, averting the war.  So elayne made her people suffer for "her right" and not because it was better for her people.  She even thinks deylen would've been a good ruler too.

 

You have a few misconceptions I think. At the time Elayne made her claim, Dyelin Taravin was the only other house to stand in support. We only know in hindsight that Dyelin could have gained support of 10 houses faster than Elayne. Another is that I would think it was Arymilla Marne that started the war, not Elayne. After all, three of her supporters ended up supporting Elayne as part of the 13 houses which eventually stood for Elayne.

[bubbified]

Ya the timing of it was simpler from this side.  But her sentiments are still there.  She would've done what it took to make her claim because it was her right.  A time or 2 as it went on it she doubted her self and thought it would be better to let dyelin take it, but she always reminded herself of her right and that settled that.  The only part of her reasonings that were founded in unselfish reasons was the fact that arymilla would've sucked as a leader, but any of the others who stood with the murandians would've probably done better than elayne.  Until you count white tower, dragon reborn, and last battle concerns, then elayne is the better choice again.  Then again, elayne told a foreign army something she knew would make them travel farther through her land.  She took a calculated risk, purely for the high chance it would make her position better, against the unknown/low chance it would lead to a major battle right in the heart of her land.  She has severed her ties to the dragon reborn as much as she could, short of breaking up with him.  And being in tight with the white tower is arguably worse for your nation.  Look at the 100 year war, look at the trolloc wars(the only nation to be stronger after it was tar valon, which is backwards as hell).  Look at what Siuan did to Gareth bryne.

 

For the story, she is the best choice though.  Probably for those reasons, lol.  She is the choice that has the most drama attached to it.

[Jeangray]

And being in tight with the white tower is arguably worse for your nation.

 

Huh? Evidence, please? Andor hasn't been the strongest Westland nation for nothing and Cahirien was doing well for a long time, too.

 

Look at the 100 year war,

 

Which was the result of the Tower being persecuted by Hawkwing and his trusted advisor Ishamael and unsustainable consolidation of power. It was Hawkwing who left everything in shambles by sending his most capable heirs away and almost destroying the Tower's prestige.

 

look at the trolloc wars(the only nation to be stronger after it was tar valon, which is backwards as hell).

 

Tar Valon was the only nation that still stood. It was very much weakened, though and the Black Ajah was introduced to sabotage it from within. _Because_ it was such a formidable adversary for Ishy and Co.

 

Speaking of Elayne, a couple of things she has on Dyelin is that she is young enough to produce heirs (and thus promise of future stability) and that she can defend herself against channeling DFs who may come after her. She also can make channelers work for her in a way and to the degree that Dyelin can't. So, yes, given the impending Tarmon Gaidon she is a much better choice. And without that, there wouldn't have been any succession in the first place.

 

 

 

[bubbified]

Andor has been shrinking for generations, though some nations have been staying roughly the same for generatoins(or maybe they've all been shrinking, instead of just some).  And bein friends with the WT has caused it to directly shrink in the last generation that we know for sure. (Suian made Bryne not defend their borders from raids out of Murandy on the off chance one of the raiders would be a strong leader for Murandy).  The WT forced them to choose to loose some land for the sake of Murandy.

 

The hundred year war was the result of the white tower screwing things up with a false dragon, then being saved by a young general, then the white tower being resentful of that and trying to teach a lesson to that young general, then sucking in every single nation in randland, one after another, and tossing them into the generals path in continuing hope of teaching him a lesson.  They screwed every single nation for over a 100 years because they suck balls, and being friends with them means you get treated like shit and blamed for the WT's mistakes, and tossed to the lions to fix their mistakes.  All other nations in the world are stronger, and none of them have the WT.

 

Actually, the white tower was the only nation to be stronger from the trolloc wars.

 

Yes elayne is a better choice for the story, but she's not a better choice otherwise(IMO).  She associates the welfare of her station as rightful queen with the welfare of her people, or at least has no consideration left for her people after considering her crown.  Maybe Dyelin would do the same though.  So maybe elayne is only as good as dyelin.

[Jeangray]

Suian made Bryne not defend their borders from raids out of Murandy

 

It would have also been in Andor's interest to have unified Murandy. The raids could have been stopped once and for all. And IIRC Andor lost no territory over it. It was shrinking because population everywhere was shrinking.

 

They screwed every single nation for over a 100 years because they suck balls,

 

On the contrary, Hawkwing did that in the later part of his reign, because he was under Ishamael's influence. He was the ta'veren who was supposed to unify Randland, yet in the end he did the opposite. And it was because he had marginalized and undermined the White Tower that they couldn't stop at least some of it.

 

Sure, White Tower made a lot of heavy mistakes re: Hawkwing, but let's be real here - he had Ishamael for his closest adviser and the latter did everything he could to set up the explosion of Hawkwing's empire as soon as Hawkwing himself was gone.

 

 

[Demiandre]

Woow!! A WoT political debate!

 

So Elayne is a poor ruler becauseshe is set on her view of beeing the rightful ruler. Yes and no. She is the rightful Queen of Andor as far as succession goes. But the revolted Arymilla made a claim, which is trying to break a succesion, thus thinking that the Trakand lineage is bad. We can't blame her for that, seeing what became Morgase under Rahvun's touch.

 

But Elayne could be a wonderful ruler nonetheless. Yes, the comin Last Battle is a good point. She will be powerful. But don't forget that since the start, she proved more or less her capacity in reasoning as a Quenn should. She may not be as good as many in Daes Dae Mar, but the realitt of ruling has been taught to her. She knows there are choice to be made. Some hard.

 

(No, before you ask, I don't like Elayne, either. I don't know what happened...)

 

Moiraine too knows hard choice have to be made. It's the "save the cheerleader, save the world". Rand is the cheerleader that must lead the forces of the light through the Last Battle. So Moiraine decided to do whatever she had to, years before she found Rand. As accepted, during Gitara Morose's foretelling that she made this promise. She is very stronf in qdaes Dae Mar and has also been taught in politics and government.

 

And I thought Elayne had rightful claims by being Taringail's heir. Technically, she could take the throne, as it is the Cairhienin law that forbid a ruler to claim another throne. So if you already have one, you can. You must be king to change the law, so he couldn't change it for reason I must check. Or something like this...

[bubbified]

@

Suian made Bryne not defend their borders from raids out of Murandy

 

It would have also been in Andor's interest to have unified Murandy. The raids could have been stopped once and for all. And IIRC Andor lost no territory over it. It was shrinking because population everywhere was shrinking.

 

They screwed every single nation for over a 100 years because they suck balls,

 

On the contrary, Hawkwing did that in the later part of his reign, because he was under Ishamael's influence. He was the ta'veren who was supposed to unify Randland, yet in the end he did the opposite. And it was because he had marginalized and undermined the White Tower that they couldn't stop at least some of it.

 

Sure, White Tower made a lot of heavy mistakes re: Hawkwing, but let's be real here - he had Ishamael for his closest adviser and the latter did everything he could to set up the explosion of Hawkwing's empire as soon as Hawkwing himself was gone.

 

If we be real then we see that the AS pushed hawkwing and sent every nation to their doom one after another until Hawkwing ruled them all.  All that was just to protect some single AS'S vanity or pride or whatever.  Now the stage was set for it all to crash down, with no one to stop it.  Maybe if the AS didn't keep sending nations to attack him, he would've had time to make sure his nation was square before he died.  Instead he was fighting almost till he died.

 

If you can forgive the AS that, then, well thats you, but your arguments are lame in the face of that.  They were almost as bad as the shadow, and caused almost as much death and destruction.

 

(this next comment applies to the AS as they've been for 3k years, and not to any individual AS, some are vastly different than this)

Making friends with AS is like making friends with a playground bully.  It's nice when the bully's beating someone else, but when the bully loses, or has no one to pick on, the bully turns on you.  Also, the bully usually extorts as much from you as from those he bullies.

 

The bully doesn't apply to Elayne, but the fact that she's willing to start wars purely for her pride is enough to call into question her leader ship skills under normal circumstances.  Under the circumstances within the book, well she's just about right for the job because of how the story's set up.

[Charlz Guybon]

Ya the timing of it was simpler from this side.  But her sentiments are still there.  She would've done what it took to make her claim because it was her right.  A time or 2 as it went on it she doubted her self and thought it would be better to let dyelin take it, but she always reminded herself of her right and that settled that. 

 

Wrong, she offered to step aside for Dyelin and Dyelin said no. If you're going to slam anyone, slam Dyelin  for not taking responsibility for unifying the country.

 

And the Arymilla would have been a horrendous monarch is certainly an important reason for Elayne to oppose her.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ya the timing of it was simpler from this side.  But her sentiments are still there.  She would've done what it took to make her claim because it was her right.  A time or 2 as it went on it she doubted her self and thought it would be better to let dyelin take it, but she always reminded herself of her right and that settled that. 

 

Wrong, she offered to step aside for Dyelin and Dyelin said no. If you're going to slam anyone, slam Dyelin  for not taking responsibility for unifying the country.

 

And the Arymilla would have been a horrendous monarch is certainly an important reason for Elayne to oppose her.

 

 

She only offered when she was about to be defeated by the civil war, so she had already begun, it was only because she was about to get slaugtered, and it was getting too hard that she offered, not right out from the start when she could have avoided the whole mess, so shes not that much of a saint.

 

And I agree, Dyelin was being lazy and immature, with TG comming, she could only think of lame excuses to absolve her of responsibility.

In any case, Arymilla only got her unified rebellion because 1) Dyelin refused the throne. 2) Dyelin arrested all of the other claimants to the throne. 3) Elayne came back and made her own claim. They only unified and gave Arymilla power because they remembered Morgase screwing things up (Rhavin of course, but they dont know that, or refuse to believe.)

[Jeangray]

 

If we be real then we see that the AS pushed hawkwing and sent every nation to their doom one after another until Hawkwing ruled them all.

 

This is true, however this was succeeded by a period of cooperation that ended when Ishamael became Hawkwing's adviser.

 

 Maybe if the AS didn't keep sending nations to attack him, he would've had time to make sure his nation was square before he died.

 

Huh? He sent huge fleets headed by his most likely heirs to conquer  Seanchan and Shara instead of solidifying his realm and preparing a smooth transfer. _That's_ why 100-year war happened, not because of anything the AS did. They were penned in Tar Valon and powerless. It was all set up by Ishy, who managed to completely sabotage everything Hawkwing ever achieved.

 

Making friends with AS is like making friends with a playground bully.

 

That's prejudice and Whitecloak propaganda, IMHO ;). AS are/were far from perfect of course, but as a group they were more moral than most national governments and on the whole a force for peace and unity.

That's why Ishamael went to such pains to sabotage them and all the Forsaken in the series tried to sick the nations/groups that they got under their control at them ditto. Despite all the flaws, the Shadow still saw the White Tower as the greatest threat, apart from the Dragon himself. 

 

  Under the circumstances within the book, well she's just about right for the job because of how the story's set up.

 

Which applies to all the main characters. They are only right for the jobs because they get massive boosts from the story - none of them actually "deserves" the power they get when they get it.

[yoniy0]

She only offered when she was about to be defeated by the civil war, so she had already begun, it was only because she was about to get slaugtered, and it was getting too hard that she offered, not right out from the start when she could have avoided the whole mess, so shes not that much of a saint.

 

And I agree, Dyelin was being lazy and immature, with TG comming, she could only think of lame excuses to absolve her of responsibility.

In any case, Arymilla only got her unified rebellion because 1) Dyelin refused the throne. 2) Dyelin arrested all of the other claimants to the throne. 3) Elayne came back and made her own claim. They only unified and gave Arymilla power because they remembered Morgase screwing things up (Rhavin of course, but they dont know that, or refuse to believe.)

Wrong. Dyelin knew what I know (and everyone who can let go of his hatred of Elayne must admit), that Elayne's the better choice for Andor with TG on the way. And besides, leadership isn't opting for the path of least resistance 100% of the time. Sometimes prices must be paid for what is right, and Elayne ascending to the Lion Throne is right, you can't deny it. Asking Dyelin to take the throne is like expecting us to marshal a coup if our president/prime minister is underqualified. The system means more to us than any particular person, and so it's not surprising that Dyelin feels the same.

[Kaman]

Well, I finally finished listening to the audiobook of New Spring and I must say that it clears up the question that is "Queen Moiraine". I can't believe that I didn't read this before, but to be honest I had fallen out of interest with the WoT series for along time and was under the mistaken impression that NS was the first half of tEotW released for a younger audience. So I hit Amazon last night and ordered a hardback copy to add to the collection.

 

I do still hope for the idea of Moiraine becoming queen of Cairhein but there is no way that she is going to submit to being tied down till after the last battle and then only if she feels that it is a crusade for the betterment of her country of birth. It would take a lot for her to overcome the apprehension of her Damodred blood and nasty back alley/palace hallway blood letting that comes with ruling her homeland. I'm a little surprised that she isn't treated as more of a pariah in NS given that her uncle, Laman Damodred started the Aiel war out of his own hubris and stupidity. In our world after WWII the relatives of Adolph Hitler were rounded up and killed or imprisoned somewhere so nasty that it was a death sentence. According to the history channel only a few were able to change there names and escape, (to the mid-west here in America of all places)and the CIA still keeps there names hidden. You certainly wouldn't want to be a relitive of Saddam Husseins' after the fall of Baghdad. 

 

Here's to hoping that RJ/BS shows the women some love in these last two books. 

[Shimmer]

I would think that Galad's claim and then Elayne's is stronger by blood. Those two also have considerable political and military power of their own, especially Elayne. I really don't see Moraine becoming Queen, she'll be far too busy with Rand and co. preparing for and fighting the final showdown with the Dark One.

 

In addition to that in NS, Moiraine said that she really didn't want become Queen of Cairhein, when she was asked by all those Sitters.

[Lambada]

I would think that Galad's claim and then Elayne's is stronger by blood. Those two also have considerable political and military power of their own, especially Elayne. I really don't see Moraine becoming Queen, she'll be far too busy with Rand and co. preparing for and fighting the final showdown with the Dark One.

 

In addition to that in NS, Moiraine said that she really didn't want become Queen of Cairhein, when she was asked by all those Sitters.

True, but that was because she needed to find The Dragon Reborn.

 

Now, what if Rand asks her to? I know he's planning for Elayne to have it, but when Moiraine comes back....

[Sharaman]

Doubt Rand will ask her.

Certain she would refuse if asked.

 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Does anyone know how far removed Moiraine is from the Sun throne. Does she have any legitimate claim to be Queen of Cairhein. If possible I would like to see her as Queen. Then Rand wouldn't have to divide his attention in so many ways and Elayne could fully focus on Andor.

 

 

Doesn't Galad have the best claim? He is a Damodred and technically closer than Elayne who is merely his half-sister?