Who/what is Shaidar Haran?

[Shadow Rider]

Shaidar Haran is no normal Fade, taller, broader, has the use of the TP & with

a sense of humor, which Fades don't have.

Shaidar Haran has curiously been placed above some of the Chosen. Nae'blis?

In Winters Heart Ch25 "Mindtrap after" Moggy was summoned to Shayol Ghul freed by Halima, She wakes in a

cuande with Shaidar Haran.

Shaidar Haran tells Moggy to close her eyes.....why?

When she is given permission to open them, she is greeted by

Moridin.

 

Shaidar Haran is a creature to take note of.

 

 

Original post amended: Shaidar Haran is not Moridin.

[Barid Bel Medar]

IMO shadar Haran is a myrddraal who has been touched by the DO, and exactly as it's name says "Hand of Shadow" or "Hand of the Dark"  im not really buying the Moridin/Haran theory, it is possible, but whats the point? what does Moridin gain by doing it?

 

SO my conclusion, SH is a twisted fade "possessed" by the DO's power since he cannot be free of the Bore already, he uses SH as a conduit.

 

Plus, in tGS, Moridin is adamant that Semirhage should not be rescued, yet SH rescues her. Also, when Rand sees Moridin in his little fits of whatever, he would see SH sometimes if they are one and teh same, but it is only Moridin.

[Entretamis]

SH is the DO Avatar.

[Shadow Rider]

Plus, in tGS, Moridin is adamant that Semirhage should not be rescued, yet SH rescues her. Also, when Rand sees Moridin in his little fits of whatever, he would see SH sometimes if they are one and teh same, but it is only Moridin.

 

IMO Semi was released purposely to push Rand...Only the Great Lord can grant the use of the TP...

Did SH free Semi against the great Lord wishes?

Why was Rand granted use of the TP if the Great lord wanted her freed?

Semi, Failed The Great Lord greatly in her tasks....she not only almost killed Rand but lost the rule she had on the Seanchan.

It was not the link between Rand and Moridin that allowed the use of the TP it was The Great Lord himself.

[Shadow Rider]

SH is the DO Avatar.

 

He is not!....he is the HAND!

[Barid Bel Medar]

Plus, in tGS, Moridin is adamant that Semirhage should not be rescued, yet SH rescues her. Also, when Rand sees Moridin in his little fits of whatever, he would see SH sometimes if they are one and teh same, but it is only Moridin.

 

IMO Semi was released purposely to push Rand...Only the Great Lord can grant the use of the TP...

Did SH free Semi against the great Lord wishes?

Why was Rand granted use of the TP if the Great lord wanted her freed?

Semi, Failed The Great Lord greatly in her tasks....she not only almost killed Rand but lost the rule she had on the Seanchan.

It was not the link between Rand and Moridin that allowed the use of the TP it was The Great Lord himself.

 

thats most likely the case, i was only arguing against the SH/Moridin theory.

[Silentvoice]

I don't think we can conclusively say that SH wields the TP, in the same way we don't say that Padan Fain wields the TP.

 

 

I don't think there's much to be said here, other than that it's a fade that the DO has somehow augmented. We know that he is bound to Shayol Ghul in some manner, and that's why I say this.

[Barid Bel Medar]

indeed, the TP still works similar to the OP with the weaving etc.. SH's power seems different, it is always "darkness" or "shadow" he uses, so i would say it was just another strange mixture of Myrddraal powers and the DO's touch

[Duskfire]

I don't think we can conclusively say that SH wields the TP, in the same way we don't say that Padan Fain wields the TP.

 

 

I don't think there's much to be said here, other than that it's a fade that the DO has somehow augmented. We know that he is bound to Shayol Ghul in some manner, and that's why I say this.

 

SH burnt a spear with black flames, created a black globe of light, made himself taller... I would say its incredibly likely he can channel the TP. And it makes perfect sense as well, for the DO to augment his Hand with that channeling ability.

[A. Pseudonym]

Shaidar Haran is a vessel or Avatar which the Dark One uses as his instrument in the World.

 

SH seems to have his own separate awareness. If you look at his encounter with Alviarin you'll notice that when she realises that the Great Lord is present, it followed a challenge on Mesaana's part towards SH's right to command her. At which point his voice changes and he addresses her as the Dark One.

 

This is not conclusive, but just an impression I have.

[DocBean]

SH is the DO Avatar.

 

He is not!....he is the HAND!

 

What do you think an Avatar is?

SH is basically a character the Dark One is playing thru his XBox 4D. (coming soon to a Best Buy near you)

 

 

[Agitel]

Plus, in tGS, Moridin is adamant that Semirhage should not be rescued, yet SH rescues her. Also, when Rand sees Moridin in his little fits of whatever, he would see SH sometimes if they are one and teh same, but it is only Moridin.

 

IMO Semi was released purposely to push Rand...Only the Great Lord can grant the use of the TP...

Did SH free Semi against the great Lord wishes?

Why was Rand granted use of the TP if the Great lord wanted her freed?

Semi, Failed The Great Lord greatly in her tasks....she not only almost killed Rand but lost the rule she had on the Seanchan.

It was not the link between Rand and Moridin that allowed the use of the TP it was The Great Lord himself.

 

Or maybe, the DO wanted her to push Rand to the breaking point and wanted him to survive and didn't really give a crap about whether Semi lived or died if it accomplished his goal.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Plus, in tGS, Moridin is adamant that Semirhage should not be rescued, yet SH rescues her. Also, when Rand sees Moridin in his little fits of whatever, he would see SH sometimes if they are one and teh same, but it is only Moridin.

 

IMO Semi was released purposely to push Rand...Only the Great Lord can grant the use of the TP...

Did SH free Semi against the great Lord wishes?

Why was Rand granted use of the TP if the Great lord wanted her freed?

Semi, Failed The Great Lord greatly in her tasks....she not only almost killed Rand but lost the rule she had on the Seanchan.

It was not the link between Rand and Moridin that allowed the use of the TP it was The Great Lord himself.

 

Or maybe, the DO wanted her to push Rand to the breaking point and wanted him to survive and didn't really give a crap about whether Semi lived or died if it accomplished his goal.

 

yeah, it does seem that way. Semirhage says "why did u betray me?" and such. SH was probably waiting around somewhere to "aid". The only problem with the theory that the DO gave him permission is that he suddenly just was able to sense the TP, we know that the DO does not see everything (Demandred POV LoC) so he isnt everywhere, so i have no idea how the DO managed to strech his hand to give Rand the TP at the exact moment he needed saving. (of course, SH could have planned this, we know too little of the TP to rule out anything)

 

I did lean towards it being the link with Moridin, as Moridin feels Rand's blown off Hand and begins to look and act like him, so Rand begins to take on Moridin's features (the halo of darkness and such) So the connection to Moridin gave him the access to the TP. (Keep in mind this may have been the DO's Plan all along, even though Ish. doesnt know of it.) So this link theory could tie in with the DO's Pressure towards Rand to turn evil.

 

IN any case, i dont think one or the other is certain, we dont know enough of the TP or the link with Moridin to be certain

[Majsju]

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Its as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creatureit is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven.

 

Winespringbrother: Ohh.

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9921/t/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports.html

[DocBean]

yeah, it does seem that way. Semirhage says "why did u betray me?" and such. SH was probably waiting around somewhere to "aid". The only problem with the theory that the DO gave him permission is that he suddenly just was able to sense the TP, we know that the DO does not see everything (Demandred POV LoC) so he isnt everywhere, so i have no idea how the DO managed to strech his hand to give Rand the TP at the exact moment he needed saving. (of course, SH could have planned this, we know too little of the TP to rule out anything)

 

I did lean towards it being the link with Moridin, as Moridin feels Rand's blown off Hand and begins to look and act like him, so Rand begins to take on Moridin's features (the halo of darkness and such) So the connection to Moridin gave him the access to the TP. (Keep in mind this may have been the DO's Plan all along, even though Ish. doesnt know of it.) So this link theory could tie in with the DO's Pressure towards Rand to turn evil.

 

IN any case, i dont think one or the other is certain, we dont know enough of the TP or the link with Moridin to be certain

 

I thought it was general knowledge that Rand's ability to weild the True Power was because of his link with Moridin.

We've seen Moridin get sick for no reason (when Rand channels) and we've seen Rand get sick every time he tried to channel since the Link began.

 

They affect each other, Moridin favoring his hand since Rand lost his. All these things show a direct link to each other's bodies and abilities to channel.

Therefor, if Moridin can channel the True Power through the Dark One, then Rand can get to it through Moridin.

 

The forsaken don't know of the link, but we do. That's why the Semi was so shocked that Rand could do it, and why she assumed the Dark One turned on her.

We shouldn't be shocked, or assume that the Dark One allowed it; Rand made it happen.

However, I'm sure the Dark One was pleasantly surprised it happened, and now has Rand where he wants him.

 

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

yeah, it does seem that way. Semirhage says "why did u betray me?" and such. SH was probably waiting around somewhere to "aid". The only problem with the theory that the DO gave him permission is that he suddenly just was able to sense the TP, we know that the DO does not see everything (Demandred POV LoC) so he isnt everywhere, so i have no idea how the DO managed to strech his hand to give Rand the TP at the exact moment he needed saving. (of course, SH could have planned this, we know too little of the TP to rule out anything)

 

I did lean towards it being the link with Moridin, as Moridin feels Rand's blown off Hand and begins to look and act like him, so Rand begins to take on Moridin's features (the halo of darkness and such) So the connection to Moridin gave him the access to the TP. (Keep in mind this may have been the DO's Plan all along, even though Ish. doesnt know of it.) So this link theory could tie in with the DO's Pressure towards Rand to turn evil.

 

IN any case, i dont think one or the other is certain, we dont know enough of the TP or the link with Moridin to be certain

 

I thought it was general knowledge that Rand's ability to weild the True Power was because of his link with Moridin.

We've seen Moridin get sick for no reason (when Rand channels) and we've seen Rand get sick every time he tried to channel since the Link began.

 

They affect each other, Moridin favoring his hand since Rand lost his. All these things show a direct link to each other's bodies and abilities to channel.

Therefor, if Moridin can channel the True Power through the Dark One, then Rand can get to it through Moridin.

 

The forsaken don't know of the link, but we do. That's why the Semi was so shocked that Rand could do it, and why she assumed the Dark One turned on her.

We shouldn't be shocked, or assume that the Dark One allowed it; Rand made it happen.

However, I'm sure the Dark One was pleasantly surprised it happened, and now has Rand where he wants him.

 

 

 

while that is my thought, you will find that alot of people think that the DO himself gave Rand access to the TP

[Majsju]

The logical explanation for Rands sudden access to TP is that the DO directly granted him that access.

 

Look at the setup here. Moridin forbids Demandred and Mesaana to make any atempt at rescuing Semirhage. Why would he do that, punishment? I think Moridin, or the DO could come up with a lot more creative ways to punish someone than Rand.

 

When Demandred and Mesaana leaves, Moridin gives Graendal avery interesting order. "He must know pain of heart. He must know frusration, and he must know anguish." Basically, make him suffer, make him desperate.

 

Later we see why there were to be no rescue attempt of Semirhage, when SH, in other words the DO himself frees her, and orders her to go after Rand. Now, of all the people at the DOs disposal, who is the least likely to just capture Rand, and immidiatly Travel with him to SG? The person who would stop a while to entertain herself a little, before handing Rand over to the DO?

 

Only when Semirhage has pushed Rand to the very edge does he notice that TP is there for him. Now, we know that tere are two requirements for using TP, the DO allowing you, and you actually wanting to use it. And here we see the shadow take a course of action set at putting Rand in a position where he wants to use it, despite suspecting what it actually is.

 

And looking at the change of Rands personality once he has used it, it is quite easy to see why the shadow wanted this.

 

 

This makes a lot more sense than the idea that the controlfrak that the DO is would not notice someone using what is basically the essence of the DO without him noticing anything.

[Barid Bel Medar]

The logical explanation for Rands sudden access to TP is that the DO directly granted him that access.

 

Look at the setup here. Moridin forbids Demandred and Mesaana to make any atempt at rescuing Semirhage. Why would he do that, punishment? I think Moridin, or the DO could come up with a lot more creative ways to punish someone than Rand.

 

When Demandred and Mesaana leaves, Moridin gives Graendal avery interesting order. "He must know pain of heart. He must know frusration, and he must know anguish." Basically, make him suffer, make him desperate.

 

Later we see why there were to be no rescue attempt of Semirhage, when SH, in other words the DO himself frees her, and orders her to go after Rand. Now, of all the people at the DOs disposal, who is the least likely to just capture Rand, and immidiatly Travel with him to SG? The person who would stop a while to entertain herself a little, before handing Rand over to the DO?

 

Only when Semirhage has pushed Rand to the very edge does he notice that TP is there for him. Now, we know that tere are two requirements for using TP, the DO allowing you, and you actually wanting to use it. And here we see the shadow take a course of action set at putting Rand in a position where he wants to use it, despite suspecting what it actually is.

 

And looking at the change of Rands personality once he has used it, it is quite easy to see why the shadow wanted this.

 

 

This makes a lot more sense than the idea that the controlfrak that the DO is would not notice someone using what is basically the essence of the DO without him noticing anything.

 

The last sentance: The DO could have known about the link, and thats how he made it available to Rand, i would havbe thought u would have to be closer to SG to recieve the "permission" at least.

Its as good a theory as any, but both theories have their positive and negative, while you may choose to believe one, and someone else, the other, the fact is, neither of the theories have any conclusive evidence, we do not know enough of the TP and its nature and the nature of the link with Moridin to say for certain. All of this is speculation of the most "logical" solution, and as we have read in the book from the White Ajah, the most logical isnt always the truth, specially dealing with the dark one

[DemandredFO]

I would it was the link because I assume that you have to swear in the Pit of Doom and recieve the Chosen Mark to channel the TP, unless the staff that Ishamael stabbed him with in TGH can be construed as a mark.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I would it was the link because I assume that you have to swear in the Pit of Doom and recieve the Chosen Mark to channel the TP, unless the staff that Ishamael stabbed him with in TGH can be construed as a mark.

 

but thats only speculation, it could be true or false, the point is moot until we know more

[Cirin]

Shaidar Haran is a myrdraal.

 

He's also the Dark One.  In a sense.

 

I always thought of him as sort of a possessed Myrdraal.  The Dark One can't escape the Seal yet, but some of his power is still able to come through.  In order to be more active in the world, he took a myrdraal and "possessed" it, which makes the myrdraal a vessel that he is able to work through - pouring his power into the Myrdraal, who has become sort of a "mini-Dark One" - not as powerful as he would be if the Bore were open, but still very powerful.  Shaidar Haran's unique qualities reflect this.

 

I think that ties in fairly accurately with the way that Robert Jordan described Shaidar Haran.

 

Also, as for the whole True Power thing, I'm inclined to believe that the Dark One gave Rand access to it, and will continue to let Rand use it if he wants to.  Perhaps even hope that Rand does use it.  To have it there, taunting him to access it again, would work well for the Dark One.  I don't think that Rand will use the True Power to defeat the Dark One, though.  In fact, I think it would be a very bad thing if he used it again.  I think people like the idea of fighting fire with fire, and think it would be cool for Rand to use "dark power" to defeat the Dark One - but I really don't see the story as going that way.  If the key to their victory was to harness dark powers and become a sort of dark hero, it would be in great contrast to everything in the story so far, and personally I think it would be a lousy way to end it.  I think forces that are opposite to the Dark One, as in good things, will ultimately play a more important role in his defeat.  I know some people see this as "corny," but I fail to see the correlation between good things being "corny" and using darkness and evil to fight evil as being "cool" and "mature" (not saying that's necessarily what people proposing the use of the True Power think, just that you see people with that kind of viewpoint all the time).  That's just my opinion, though.

[Shadow Rider]

SH is the DO Avatar.

 

He is not!....he is the HAND!

 

What do you think an Avatar is?

SH is basically a character the Dark One is playing thru his XBox 4D. (coming soon to a Best Buy near you)

 

 

If Shaidar Haran was the Great Lords Avitar why not speak through his Avatar instead of acting as a se4rvant.

SH was placed over the Chosen.... to them would be the biggest slap in the face after all their service and devotion to The Great Lord ...he sticks a Fade above them, even Demandred who has served well, and has to answer to this ...Myrddraal!

We haven't seen Moridin and SH in the same seen yet.

on a re-read of the series I'm almost finished aCoS but when I read the CH Mindtrap I had to think about who or what SH is, first introduced in book 6 escorted Demandred to the Bore.

He has definitely has a personality and is not a vessel for The Great Lord.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin/Shadar Haran = Ba'alzamon, Betrayer of Hope, Death, Hand of the Shadow....Nae'blis  ...

 

Ishamael spent 3000 years doing mischief in the name of the Great Lord......He is Nae'blis,he is SH the rest have just not been told, they are mere pawns and Shai'tan does like to play with his toys.

 

[Duskfire]

SH is the DO Avatar.

 

He is not!....he is the HAND!

 

What do you think an Avatar is?

SH is basically a character the Dark One is playing thru his XBox 4D. (coming soon to a Best Buy near you)

 

 

If Shaidar Haran was the Great Lords Avitar why not speak through his Avatar instead of acting as a se4rvant.

SH was placed over the Chosen.... to them would be the biggest slap in the face after all their service and devotion to The Great Lord ...he sticks a Fade above them, even Demandred who has served well, and has to answer to this ...Myrddraal!

We haven't seen Moridin and SH in the same seen yet.

on a re-read of the series I'm almost finished aCoS but when I read the CH Mindtrap I had to think about who or what SH is, first introduced in book 6 escorted Demandred to the Bore.

He has definitely has a personality and is not a vessel for The Great Lord.

 

Elan Morin Tedronai/Ishamael/Moridin/Shadar Haran = Ba'alzamon, Betrayer of Hope, Death, Hand of the Shadow....Nae'blis  ...

 

Ishamael spent 3000 years doing mischief in the name of the Great Lord......He is Nae'blis,he is SH the rest have just not been told, they are mere pawns and Shai'tan does like to play with his toys.

 

 

Because the Dark One has always cared about the Forsakens feelings before  :P

 

I imagine it would be hard to create the illusion that your a 10 foot tall Fade, not to mention Moridins personality is quite different to SH's. Then you have SH's POV, which is not only quite different to how Moridin thinks, but also complains about the ties to shayol Ghul. Moridin has never complained about such a tie, nor is there any real reason why he would have done, since none of the other Forsaken have one.

 

It would also mean that Moridin would need to have the ability to shadowstep or whatever it is the Fades call it, because SH can certainly do that. Since Moridin seems to be able to travel like everyone else, that means he is hiding said ability.

 

SH was created because the Forsaken needed to be reigned in; that and the DO probably needed direct eyes to the outside world. The Chosen scheme against each other constantly and will never truly follow Moridin (only do so until it suits them) but a tall, channeling Fade who can somehow supress their ability to even sense the True Source is scary indeed. I agree he has a seperate personality, but for all we know that personality is simiiar to what the DO's would be in a mortal body.

[OptimusPrime]

I think the Dark One possesses something to become Shaidar, because Shaidar channels what looks like the True Power and that requires the ability to channel. This would fit into the bigger picture of my theory on Rand sacrificing himself for the Dark One to possess him, then Alivia kills Rands original body with the Dark One/part of the Dark One in him. The Dark Ones power cant be used inside the Pattern without the ability to use the Creators power.

[Shadow Rider]

aCoS ch25 Mindtrap....

 

SH holds Moggy by the hair and instructs her to close her eyes.... she feels as if she is being thrust forward and will hit the wall, but instead finds herself in a room with Moridin...I don't think they left cuande (*sp) I think it just changed to the manor looking room.

When Moridin travels with the TP he steps outside the pattern Right?

These cuande ( sorry if it's spelled wrong)exist outside the Pattern aswell.

Moridin should have use of these places as well, he has had 3000 yrs to play with the TP

I think the place where Moggy woke and the place she meets Moridin is the same place...

As with his meetings with the other Chosen.