Matts a better case for the Dragon then Rand!

[Bellanoire]

After servral years of intensive theary and study of WoT I think Rj has truelly placed one hell of a big joke on us!

 

I believe he meant to make Matt Cuaton the dragon Reborn, after all Rand just seemed it becuase he was nutts and hearing imaginary voices,

 

matts the one who blew the horn, which is suppoed to be done by the dragon, or so moraine planed(all hail Moraine the creator reborn IMO)

 

he has also died and lived again, at least twice at last count, he is inevitable tied to the do due to his ;luck.  He's actually turned the tide of wars by being in them with his tavern swirling, where rand can't.

 

seriosly though rands only claim to fame is hes a strong channeler, matt has fufilled those same prophecys as rand, and then some!

[White_star]

matts the one who blew the horn, which is suppoed to be done by the dragon

Actually, Moiraine couldn't find ANY link between the horn and the DR.

 

moraine planed(all hail Moraine the creator reborn IMO)

And she has such a lovely record for being correct with her plans.

 

matt has fufilled those same prophecys as rand, and then some!

Like being born on Dragon Mount, claiming Callandar(sp?), being marked with Herons and Dragons, Cleansing Saidin, and oh a host of others that Mat had nothing to do with.  I must have been reading a different set of books.  ;)

[farthammer]

Mat did blow the horn but when he did so, the heroes of the horn would only follow the Dragon and Banner.  They also specifically talk about Rand being the Dragon.  They didn't really care about Mat at that point.

[Durinax]

Mat was only named the Hornsounder, not the dragon

 

nothing explicitely links the dragon to the horn (Adealas and Vandene when moraine visits them)

 

mat doesnt have the heron marks or the dragons so he definately has not fulfilled near any amount of prophecies as rand, beginning on the day he was born after all

[Ereinion]

Mat Cauthon >:(

 

[mottlee]

lol

[Rootbeer]

I like Mat's character.

 

But if he was the Dragon Reborn, the world's doomed.

[Canis Rufus]

I think you may have a point here Bellanoire.  It is well noted that RJ was a purveyor of history and enjoyed giving his readers a surprise or two along the way.  Now Mat has been twice marked, the scares on his neck and as a leader of battle the red hand.  It is Mat that is bringing nations together under his flag because he is a good leader.  Perhaps Rand was the faint or dodge if you will.  It could have been that the wheel planed the all to protect Mat until the time was ready for the real Dragon.  That meaning that Rand is actually a false dragon could be why he is doing such a poor job of leading people.  There is still the strange connection with the swirling colors and Mat and Perrin.  This idea truly should be explored more.     

[Bellanoire]

Thanks for the open mind Canis, and i agree he has also had the crystal thwon bow to him, symbolically as he had her captureed and the whole gives up half of the light of the world to save the world is just like the aes sedai symbol if you think of it, then there is also the line under this symblom he will concer, and he has the symbol on his chest asfter all in the fox head medalion, its eye is the ancient sysmbol again, he's marked all over, and like logain said in one of his lines when rand asked him if he managed to be born on dragon mount, and logain says that if he had been the one hystory would have said he was.

 

now guyes dpon't be getting the actual prophercys mixed up with other propaganda. if you look at just the prophescies then matt has fufilled most of them so far.

[bohika5]

Carpentry is a noble trade.

[Bellanoire]

Carpentry is a noble trade.

 

lol think your looking at the wrong prophecies.

 

Besides Matts a way better general as well.

[yoniy0]

This is absurd. Mat fulfilled NONE of the prophecies (he DIDN'T bind the nine moons to SERVE him). On the other hand, Rand:

(a) Was born on the slopes of Dragonmount

(b) His mother was a maiden

© Has Aiel ancestry (ancient blood), and has grown up in the TR (old blood)

(d) Was marked with two herons and two dragons

(e) Declared himself above the city of watchers

(f) Took Callandor

(g) Returned it to the Heart of the Stone

(h) Danced the sword in Rhuidean amongst mist figures

(i) Destroyed his people with the leaf

(j) Led the spears from the forsaken city

(k) Wore the crown of swords

(l) Cleansed sai'din (wounds of madness and cutting of hope)

(m) Is one with the land (food spoilage...)

Really, just take a look at the prophecies, then try to support your claim with something substantial. I doubt you can.

[Canis Rufus]

SPOLIER ALERT (Just in case your still really early in the books just to be fair)

 

This is absurd. Mat fulfilled NONE of the prophecies (he DIDN'T bind the nine moons to SERVE him). On the other hand, Rand:

You don’t get much more binded than marriage

 

(a) Was born on the slopes of Dragonmount

How do you know he wasn’t I can’t find a place of definitive proof.  Lots of ladies were out there having babies in that general location.  See New Spring. 

(b) His mother was a maiden

There are multiple definitions of Maiden and nowhere is it clearly defined.  This is prophecy and obviously open to interpretation. 

 

© Has Aiel ancestry (ancient blood), and has grown up in the TR (old blood)

Remember where the Aiel started.  It is quite possible that the ‘orginal’ Aiel started the Two Rivers.  There were several bands.  Remember the tinkers.

 

(d) Was marked with two herons and two dragons

Twice marked, does it say what or when?

 

(e) Declared himself above the city of watchers

Is there anyone that Mat does not think he is above?

 

(f) Took Callandor

Sure Rand did that he so have other people.  Didn’t Rand have it delivered at some point to him?  Seems he sent someone after it didn’t he? 

 

(g) Returned it to the Heart of the Stone

Again there is no definitive time line for this so who’s to say Mat wont?

 

(h) Danced the sword in Rhuidean amongst mist figures

Didn’t mat “dance” and earn himself a nice little scar and a weapon?

 

(i) Destroyed his people with the leaf

Mat lost people at first in a hope to stay out of the fight.

 

(j) Led the spears from the forsaken city

Play back Mats battles has he not lead ‘spears’ from several forsaken cities.

 

(k) Wore the crown of swords

Is that a literal?  Again this is prophecy and when you say crown of swords who to say it does not mean the King of battles.

 

(l) Cleansed sai'din (wounds of madness and cutting of hope)

…. What does the prophecy say exactly?  I don’t think it says ‘oh yea he’ll clean Sai’din,’ does it?  Now do many people thank that Mats battle plans are Mad and have his victories not cut off hope of victories from others? 

 

(m) Is one with the land (food spoilage...)

Really you’re going to give that to rand.  Have you seen Mat track of read terrain or hunt or any other husbandry skills that basically means he has been one with the land since inception?

 

Really, just take a look at the prophecies, then try to support your claim with something substantial. I doubt you can.

I’m just saying it’s all about perception, perhaps you should be a little more willing to think outside the box on this one. 

 

[farthammer]

Explain why the heroes of the horn only recognized Rand as the DR.

[Skeeve the Great]

Is it a humor thread or serious?  :o

[jemron]

This should go in the hilarious theories thread. 

 

 

[Dreamwalker]

(a) Was born on the slopes of Dragonmount

How do you know he wasn’t I can’t find a place of definitive proof.  Lots of ladies were out there having babies in that general location.  See New Spring.  

(b) His mother was a maiden

There are multiple definitions of Maiden and nowhere is it clearly defined.  This is prophecy and obviously open to interpretation.  

According to http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/ Mat was born and raised in Emond's field. I think there is proof of that in tEotW - if you'll remember, even in that book we had the evidence that Tam came back to Emond's field with an outlander wife (from Caemlyn) and a baby Rand right after fighting in the Aiel war. And as long as you're looking at NS - Gitara proclaims when Rand is born on Dragonmount. Gitara also set up the circumstances for Rand's birth by sending Tigraine/Shaiel to the Waste, and sending Luc to the Blight.

 

© Has Aiel ancestry (ancient blood), and has grown up in the TR (old blood)

Remember where the Aiel started.  It is quite possible that the ‘orginal’ Aiel started the Two Rivers.  There were several bands.  Remember the tinkers.

 

This is doubtful and we don't have any evidence of it, but I won't just dismiss it out of hand - I guess that could be true (though by Occam's razor Rand is still a much more logical choice for that prophecy)

 

(d) Was marked with two herons and two dragons

Twice marked, does it say what or when?

"Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

He's got to be marked with herons and dragons.

 

(e) Declared himself above the city of watchers

Is there anyone that Mat does not think he is above?

 

(f) Took Callandor

Sure Rand did that he so have other people.  Didn’t Rand have it delivered at some point to him?  Seems he sent someone after it didn’t he?  

 

(g) Returned it to the Heart of the Stone

Again there is no definitive time line for this so who’s to say Mat wont?

e) is just word-twisting. f) and g) First, that prophecy calls Callandor "the sword that cannot be touched" - which it was when Rand took it. But it isn't that anymore, because the enchantments have been removed - so taking it now would not fulfill that prophecy. Even if that wasnt' the case, that's a lot to fit into the last two books - taking callandor and returning it - and it's not even in the stone anymore right now because Cadsuane has it. Further - what would Mat do with callandor? He can't channel.

 

(h) Danced the sword in Rhuidean amongst mist figures

Didn’t mat “dance” and earn himself a nice little scar and a weapon?

Mat doesn't use a sword.

 

(i) Destroyed his people with the leaf

Mat lost people at first in a hope to stay out of the fight.

Mat does NOT and never has, been a follower of the way of the leaf, even then, if that's what you're suggesting. Also, you left out that he will "slay his people with the sword of peace" which Rand very much did, and I can't see how you'd apply to Mat.

 

(j) Led the spears from the forsaken city

Play back Mats battles has he not lead ‘spears’ from several forsaken cities.

 

(k) Wore the crown of swords

Is that a literal?  Again this is prophecy and when you say crown of swords who to say it does not mean the King of battles.

 

(l) Cleansed sai'din (wounds of madness and cutting of hope)

…. What does the prophecy say exactly?  I don’t think it says ‘oh yea he’ll clean Saidin,’ does it?  Now do many people thank that Mats battle plans are Mad and have his victories not cut off hope of victories from others?  

j)well, maybe, but I don't think so. k)When we've already got something called the crown of swords, yeah, I'd say it's literal. And you need to look at the whole prophecy, it starts with: "Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm" How the heck is Mat the Master of the lightnings? l)Again, this is just word twisting and does not fit nearly as well as the cleansing of saidin. People thinking Mat's battle plans are mad does not have anything to do with wounds of madness though - I would not call that a wound.

 

(m) Is one with the land (food spoilage...)

Really you’re going to give that to rand.  Have you seen Mat track of read terrain or hunt or any other husbandry skills that basically means he has been one with the land since inception?

 

Ok, let's look at the full prophecy here: "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

 

Who does that sound like - Rand. And while Mat has won lots of battles, he hasn't really done any conquering (and not in pride). Further, how would husbandry skill be a reason that nothing good can grow - whereas Rand's darkness and his wounds is a reason for nothing to grow.

 

[alannalynn]

*marked* This is interesting. I gotta keep up with this thread...

[jemron]

The term "grasping at straws" comes to mind for the arguments that Mat is the DR.  I know this is not serious, but it still frustrates me. >:(

[Cirin]

Plus Mat makes the ravens fly, and the name Rand means raven!  :o

 

Hee hee... so much fun.

[jemron]

Plus Mat makes the ravens fly, and the name Rand means raven!  :o

 

Hee hee... so much fun.

 

Now THAT I didn't know.  Please tell me more!

[Cirin]

Well, I was joking to a certain extent, just making another crazy theory to augment the other crazy theory, just for fun.

 

In truth, Rand COULD potentially mean raven, since in many names, like Bertrand, the -rand section of it can be referring to raven, derived/corrupted from ran, ram, etc.  More likely, though, "Rand" as it's used here means something like "shield" etc.

[Canis Rufus]

  “Gitara proclaims when Rand is born on Dragonmount. Gitara also set up the circumstances for Rand's birth by sending Tigraine/Shaiel to the Waste, and sending Luc to the Blight.”  

Actually she proclaims that the DR was born not Rand.

  "Twice and twice shall he be marked,

twice to live and twice to die.

Once the heron, to set his path.

Twice the heron, to name him true.

Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.

Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay."

He's got to be marked with herons and dragons 

Again Perception is everything here, who set Mat on his Path? Lan a sword Master.  Who noted Mats understanding of Battle plans?  Again Lan a sword Master.  (Heron’s)  The Current False Dragon Rand more or less banished Mat due to Rand forgetting the value of love.  Then again The False dragon called on Mat to lead a “price he must pay.”

  e) is just word-twisting. f) yeah, but Mat never has done it. g) First, that prophecy calls Callandor "the sword that cannot be touched" - which is was when Rand took it. But it isn't that anymore, because the enchantments have been removed - so taking it now would not fulfill that prophecy. Even if that wasnt' the case, that's a lot to fit into the last two books - taking callandor and returning it - and it's not even in the stone anymore right now because Cadsuane has it. Further - what would Mat do with callandor? He can't channel.  

E.) Word twisting =  Prophecy  F) wasn’t the prophecy that the stone would fall when the sword was taken?  Wasn’t Mat invading the Stone during this occurrence?  Did he not actually blow up the stone and literally make it fall to get in with fireworks?  G) Is it not true that the ability to channel manifest itself at different times and often much later in men? 

  Mat doesn't use a sword

Ashandarei are polearm weapons with a short sword blade on top.

  Mat does NOT and never has, been a follower of the way of the leaf, even then, if that's what you're suggesting. Also, you left out that he will "slay his people with the sword of peace" which Rand very much did, and I can't see how you'd apply to Mat.

How many times does mat try to avoid the battle for sleep and peace?  Is Mat not leading Tow Rivers people into Battles in hope of getting peace? 

  j)well, maybe, but I don't think so. k)When we've already got something called the crown of swords, yeah, I'd say it's literal. and you need to look at the whole prophecy, it starts with: "Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm" How the heck is Mat the Master of the lightnings? l)again, this is just word twisting and does not fit nearly as well as the cleansing of sai'din. People thinking Mat's battle plans are mad does not have anything to do with wounds of madness though - I would not call that a wound.

J) Thank you, for considering the position.  K)Actually wasn’t the crown in question renamed to be called the Crown of Swords?  I remember reading that it was once called something else. L) How is he the Master of lighting?  Have you ever seen Fireworks?  I) I respect your opinion, but I don’t think so. 

  Ok, let's look at the full prophecy here: "There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love." 

 

Yep that sounds like Mat to me.  They need Mat to lead them out of the evil that is spreading.  There is a difference in Pride and arrogance and clearly Rand is simply arrogant while Mat is Full of pride.  And again this is Prophecy I don’t think any of that is literally otherwise they just would have said Hay everybody this guy Mat is going to be the Dragon Reborn look out for him to save and destroy you all. 

 

[seasnake]

Canis gets the creative writing award!  And good job keeping this thread alive, and people actually responding to you like this is some kind of argument.  I argue for a living and I tip my hat to you, sir. 

[Canis Rufus]

Well thank you but I am only allowing myself to see other possible solutions rather than accept the main stream Answer.