Do you feel bad for Alanna?

[Impressive Bosom]

No, the rape analogy is in reference to bonding w/o permission.  The bond is an intimate connection between two people, and much like a sexual relationship it can be a willing or unwilling connection.

 

Correct, and to further this point, its not the bonding that is the rape - it is the bond itself. The bonding isn't like a bruise from a punch that could heal in time... the other person is now inside of you, part of you, privy to your emotions and sensations and location whether you want them to be or not. THAT'S the 'rape' aspect of it. They have taken a part of you against your will, even if its your privacy or awareness, and you can't take it back.

[Morsker]

Correct, and to further this point, its not the bonding that is the rape - it is the bond itself. The bonding isn't like a bruise from a punch that could heal in time... the other person is now inside of you, part of you, privy to your emotions and sensations and location whether you want them to be or not. THAT'S the 'rape' aspect of it. They have taken a part of you against your will, even if its your privacy or awareness, and you can't take it back.

 

The bond can be released though. The huge hypocrisy is that Aes Sedai consider bonding a man against his will to be an atrocity, but refusing to release him completely normal. The latter is orders of magnitude worse than the former. Bonding is just momentary shocking, and wouldn't need to be considered anything worse than assault or kidnapping if the AS would just release it.

[TheBeerPatriot]

I think she's always crying over the loss of Owein, not because of anything to do with Rand's wounds.  It is getting old, though.

 

What I don't get is why he doesn't order her to remove the bond.  If she says no for some weird and obscure Aes Sedai reason, still her so the bond vanishes and then heal her up.

 

I have absolutely no sympathy for the woman.

I agree.  After Rand banished Alanna from his sight, she had the temerity to tell Verin "The utter gall of the man" or something like that after the "bonding".  Alanna deserves any pain or discomfort she gets from bonding Rand against his will. 

[alannalynn]

Did I hear my name?

 

*marked for further reading*

 

I do feel sorry for her, I don't think she knew what she was getting into. But... h/o and let me read the thread when I get back. O_o

[Ishmayl]

Never have had any sympathy for her, and never will (unless it turns out she was somehow Compelled to bond him against his will).  I would have severed her on the spot.

[Axon]

She didn't know what she was getting into.  All of the Aes Sedai are used to their position of power and dominance (complete with a broad sense of entitlement) and still act in that fashion. Rand - and the other superkids, but Rand especially - it totally beyond those established mores of Randland society.  Essentially, she tried to hold a hive of bees and is now surprised that she got stung.

[Gokkus]

No, there are plenty of people a lot worse of who didnt put themselves knowingly in a bad spot. She did it to have more control over him and it turns out its more the other way around :)

 

Maybe i'll feel sorry for her when Rand dies...

[alannalynn]

Let's see... *gathering thoughts*

 

1) Bonding is to be entered into willingly. The AS asks the Warder and they form a mutual agreement about what that bond entails. By the Warder saying "yes" they know that they will serve their AS to the death, that is what they were trained for. And they do retain their own self and being, unlike collaring. The BT has convoluted this bonding process by boding AS against their will and demanding a sort of obedience, or a will to obey in their (for lack of a better word) victims.

 

2) Alanna definitely did not know what she was getting into, and she's told Rand that she's begged Cadsuane several times to take the bond from her because she just can't handle it. Alanna's weak in terms of fortitude, she's still weepy over Owen (name?) and is quick to temper, not someone you need around the Dragon. Though she has been helpful (ie helping find Rand).

 

3) A bond isn't something you just want to undo, either. Despite the fact that Rand now has three other bonds, imagine having someone in your head, feeling everything they feel, every emotion and hurt, but then them suddenly being gone? You would feel like something was now missing from your life, right? A bond isn't something to jump into and then jump right out of, it's not something to be taken lightly, you can't just say, "oh well, let's undo it." Elyas has been living away from his AS for years but they never severed the bond. I don't think it's something painless for both parties to enjoy, really.

 

I still stand for pity for Alanna. She wasn't strong enough for it, it may have been ta'veren swirlings, or not, but it wasn't what she expected, poor thing.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Let's see... *gathering thoughts*

 

1) Bonding is to be entered into willingly. The AS asks the Warder and they form a mutual agreement about what that bond entails. By the Warder saying "yes" they know that they will serve their AS to the death, that is what they were trained for. And they do retain their own self and being, unlike collaring. The BT has convoluted this bonding process by boding AS against their will and demanding a sort of obedience, or a will to obey in their (for lack of a better word) victims.

 

2) Alanna definitely did not know what she was getting into, and she's told Rand that she's begged Cadsuane several times to take the bond from her because she just can't handle it. Alanna's weak in terms of fortitude, she's still weepy over Owen (name?) and is quick to temper, not someone you need around the Dragon. Though she has been helpful (ie helping find Rand).

 

3) A bond isn't something you just want to undo, either. Despite the fact that Rand now has three other bonds, imagine having someone in your head, feeling everything they feel, every emotion and hurt, but then them suddenly being gone? You would feel like something was now missing from your life, right? A bond isn't something to jump into and then jump right out of, it's not something to be taken lightly, you can't just say, "oh well, let's undo it." Elyas has been living away from his AS for years but they never severed the bond. I don't think it's something painless for both parties to enjoy, really.

 

I still stand for pity for Alanna. She wasn't strong enough for it, it may have been ta'veren swirlings, or not, but it wasn't what she expected, poor thing.

 

While i argee, I would feel sorry for her if it was due to Ta'veren, which it could possibly be,

however, your saying you would feel sorry for someone who has raped another, because after the fact of the rape, they realize it was not what they expected.

 

And not just alanna, the BT shouldnt have bonded the AS against their will, however, it is somewhat lessened by the fact the AS were trying to gentle them, effectively killing them, so while it was probably not the best thing to do, i have no sympathy for Tovine and her lot, she got what was comming, she should be thankful she is alive after trying to gentle them.

[alannalynn]

however, your saying you would feel sorry for someone who has raped another, because after the fact of the rape, they realize it was not what they expected.

 

Not necessarily. I hate the bond/rape analogy, and I still think the bond was on a bit of a whim anyways. I think Alanna was extremely wrong in doing it, but I believe by now she's gotten her payback. I mean, how much more can the poor girl take? I understand where you're coming from though.

 

And not just alanna, the BT shouldnt have bonded the AS against their will, however, it is somewhat lessened by the fact the AS were trying to gentle them, effectively killing them, so while it was probably not the best thing to do, i have no sympathy for Tovine and her lot, she got what was comming, she should be thankful she is alive after trying to gentle them.

 

True true, but we all knew they wouldn't have succeeded with killing them all anyways. At least Logain's other bonded is getting what she can out of it. ;) haha

 

Also, those bonds are well placed because of the added stability it gives the male bonded. I'm sure it's been brought up that the Asha'man who have bonded/been bonded by AS are less... crazy? O_o

[Barid Bel Medar]

I would say that the cleansing helped them become less crazy :P

 

but you are probably right, i think the AS/AM bond is a great idea, the whole series has been forshadowing the need for men and women to work together.

 

the only problem with that is "who will make the bond?" men bond women, women bond men?

 

Im not sure if it can happen, but i think they should both bond each other. So Tovine and Gabrielle are already bonded, to even it out, they should bond Logain back.

 

Not necessarily. I hate the bond/rape analogy, and I still think the bond was on a bit of a whim anyways. I think Alanna was extremely wrong in doing it, but I believe by now she's gotten her payback. I mean, how much more can the poor girl take? I understand where you're coming from though.

 

Yeah, she seems to truly want to help Rand, so i suppose she should be forgiven, but thats alot different from feeling bad for her.

 

 

[alannalynn]

Im not sure if it can happen, but i think they should both bond each other. So Tovine and Gabrielle are already bonded, to even it out, they should bond Logain back.

 

I 100% agree with this, and been thinking it for a while. I mean, what better way to be equal than make an equal bond. I think Rand and Egwene have got it all wrong having the same number of AS bond AM, and vice versa, that's just going to cause troubles because how do you KNOW when the limit has been reached?

 

Yeah, she seems to truly want to help Rand, so i suppose she should be forgiven, but thats alot different from feeling bad for her.

 

:) Okay, agree to disagree? She's definitely not a DF and is definitely suffering from the bond, so she has gotten her payback plus some.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Smiley Okay, agree to disagree? She's definitely not a DF and is definitely suffering from the bond, so she has gotten her payback plus some.

 

I suppose your right, shes not that bad after all, hopefully she does get some respite.

[Beer Rot]

I think Rand's a fool for not sleeping with her.

 

Its obviously what she wanted.

[alannalynn]

I think Rand's a fool for not sleeping with her.

 

Its obviously what she wanted.

 

lmfao! Really? You gotta be jokin'.

[Impressive Bosom]

I think Rand's a fool for not sleeping with her.

 

Its obviously what she wanted.

 

lmfao! Really? You gotta be jokin'.

 

No offense to your namesake, but as I recall, Alanna was a little bit of a tramp before making the mistake of forcibly bonding Rand... not that that's a bad thing, mind you. She was also said to be quite the looker.

[alannalynn]

:) I never considered her a tramp, but okay. lol.

 

I love my name more and more everyday.

[Express]

I love it, Alanna didn't know what she's getting into or we should forgive her.  Well, she had her chance for redemption, Rand told her to release him and she chose not to.  I feel ZERO% bad for her!

 

Since Alanna bonded Rand to forcefully control him and it didn't work and Logain controls his two Aes Sadai is it possible that the male in a pair of bonding channelers controls the female?  I thought Rand had control over Alanna but I could be wrong.

[Barid Bel Medar]

I love it, Alanna didn't know what she's getting into or we should forgive her.  Well, she had her chance for redemption, Rand told her to release him and she chose not to.  I feel ZERO% bad for her!

 

Since Alanna bonded Rand to forcefully control him and it didn't work and Logain controls his two Aes Sadai is it possible that the male in a pair of bonding channelers controls the female?  I thought Rand had contro over Alanna but I could be wrong.

 

THe male bond Logain used was different to the AS bond, as Romanda and that explain when deciding to send people to the BT, the AS could alter the bond to control the men, but this was considered little better than compulsion.

Alanna used the standard bond, which only makes the warder want to obey, not actually force them to, and channelers seem to be able to resist that aspect of the bond.

[Shazzai]

@Shazzai: So when did you meet someone who had had Compulsion used on them? Or wore an a'dam?

 

Submission to eg. a superior officer in the armed forces, to a monarch or tyrant, to a spouse, or to an employer, is simply not in that league. The person concerned still retains the capability of independent thought and action. A Compelled / collared person does not.

Potentially adult content in my post...  Here's the warning :P

 

Not an a'dam, but I've met quite a few women (and men) who wear collars.  D/s or M/s power exchange relationships involve rather deep levels of submission.  *shrug*  Still less than forcibly losing your will, but much deeper than the examples you listed.

[Axon]

There are definitely some people out there who would willingly wear an a'dam collar. :P

[draconian]

Also I think Alanna may have some part to play, something like... Shaidar can detect Warder bonds and may end up killing Alanna to have a sly dig at Rands sanity.

 

 

Plot-wise the bond has already facilitated moving the story forward.  The bond was the main reason Perrin's rescue party found Rand when he had been taken by Elaida's group in LoC.  It could have more to do like you say, but it has already served at least one purpose.

i think u r mixing up the dumai's well event were perrin had wolf's tracking rand and co and the events of far madding.

[draconian]

I think she's always crying over the loss of Owein, not because of anything to do with Rand's wounds.  It is getting old, though.

i would say its both b/c either of those wounds would cause a normal human to die a screaming death that i doubt even an aiel could laugh through. i can personally attest to getting so use to pain that u dont know its there till it gets worse than is always feel.

[Luckers]

Since Alanna bonded Rand to forcefully control him and it didn't work and Logain controls his two Aes Sadai is it possible that the male in a pair of bonding channelers controls the female?  I thought Rand had control over Alanna but I could be wrong.

 

No, Rand doesn't have control over Alanna--at least not in that way. The reason the compulsive aspect did not work on Rand is because he was already wrapped in saidin, and a man wrapped in saidin is not vulnerable to compulsion of any form.

[Mr Ares]

3) A bond isn't something you just want to undo, either. Despite the fact that Rand now has three other bonds, imagine having someone in your head, feeling everything they feel, every emotion and hurt, but then them suddenly being gone?

Sounds like an unmixed blessing.

A bond isn't something to jump into and then jump right out of, it's not something to be taken lightly, you can't just say, "oh well, let's undo it." Elyas has been living away from his AS for years but they never severed the bond.

In this case, aside from the social pressure on AS to not unbind warders, if you do unbind one you need to be with him. Them being apart made it impossible even if she did want to.