Seanchan Prophecy; Fact or Fiction

[FarShainMael]

They're not that fixed, though, are they? In tGS Ch48, Min 'sees' a vision 'hovering over Nynaeve's head' of her kneeling over a corpse. The viewing is gone a moment later. At that point, Rand and Tam are having their little chat, during which Rand nearly balefires his own (foster) father. He pulls back from that.. and the viewing winks out.

 

This was a turning point, not a fixed point. Perhaps that's only to be expected when a ta'veren is involved.

 

[Sharaman]

But all prophesy is conditional to some extent - even Min - she has always so far been right but that doesn't mean she will always be. TGS has an explanation that if GLoD wins free, he could rip up the Pattern in ways that invalidate Min's viewings.

You're making this up. We've seen zilch to suggest Min's viewings might not come true. The same goes for Foretellings. Of course, if the DO breaks free, then all bets are off, because the Pattern itself would be unraveled (and Fortellings are nothing more than fixed points in the Pattern). But barring that, i.e. if the Pattern still exists, every piece of evidence we have suggests that those ALWAYS come true.

 

I wish I had the imagination.

I am talking about GLoD breaking free - Chapter 44, TGS, the conversation between Cadsuabe, Min, Corele and Nynaeve is what I'm referring to. 

However I also offered an offhand example of where Min made a conditional viewing - Perrin and Rand together where Min says Perrin may or may not be able to prevent Rand being hurt.

 

BTW, I can't go on without telling you again that it totally creeps me out when you say GLoD.

 

We aim to please! (Hint: It's much easier to search than do)

[yoniy0]

Yeah, if the Viewing is conditional, then of course both options don't occur. But the Viewing itself does come true, in a way, when either one occur :).

 

FarShainMael, that's an interesting interpretation of that scene. I thought it was actually about Lan getting killed at TG.

[aunt_pol]

Yeah Min's had several conditional viewings. The Siuan/Bryne one springs to mind - that one or both would die if they went too far apart.

[Duskfire]

Yeah Min's had several conditional viewings. The Siuan/Bryne one springs to mind - that one or both would die if they went too far apart.

 

Conditional viewings are the exceptions, and even they come true (or at least one example does.) However, Mins viewings are always true as has been stated by RJ numerous times, as are Foretellings. Dreams are the only ones that can change.

 

And I am not so sure they are conditional at all, but rather thats how Min percieves them. After all, Bryne speculates in TGS that that situation wouldn't even have happened if they didn't know of Mins viewing, to which Siuan tells him not to worry about that sort of paradox (paraphrasing of course.) And to my knowledge Perrin didn't know about the viewing regarding him needing to be near Rand, and yet it was Rands ta`veren pull that made him come over from the Two Rivers.

 

So yeah, I am still dubious that they are conditional at all.

[FarShainMael]

@yoniy0 - I think that's because people often read that as Nyn kneeling over a grave, but in fact it's a corpse.

 

@duskfire - Min's viewings are true if she knows what they mean. She didn't know the meaning of that one.

 

[Duskfire]

@yoniy0 - I think that's because people often read that as Nyn kneeling over a grave, but in fact it's a corpse.

 

@duskfire - Min's viewings are true if she knows what they mean. She didn't know the meaning of that one.

 

 

No they are always true. There are plenty of examples throughout the series where Min didn't know what a vision meant, and they still happened. As I pointed out, RJ has stated that Mins viewings are always about the future and always true.

[FarShainMael]

Yes, I saw that. I'd like to see exactly what RJ said. I've a feeling the viewing I mentioned may have been a slight error by BS, because it is such a good fit with what was actually happening at that time. (Though, of course, the 'future' starts in the next instant!)

 

...

 

After some thought, I think I understand..

 

Min's viewings of the future have been taken by some of the charaters as a guarantee that the forces of the Light will win TG.. until someone points out that what she is doing is reading the projected Pattern, and if the DO wins, the Pattern will be destroyed, rendering her viewings invalid. Rand is ta'veren, bending the Pattern around himself; hence the 'turning point' effect.

 

[wvlr2]

@yoniy0 - I think that's because people often read that as Nyn kneeling over a grave, but in fact it's a corpse.

 

If it was a viewing of Rand killing Tam then there would not have been a body because Rand was going to use balefire.

[aunt_pol]

@wvlr2-

Yeah, but Faile is not an actual falcon, nor Berelain a whatever the hell it was... Viewings are not so literal as all that.

That said in defense of your point, I do disagree with you. Much as we don't want it, it's surely Lan's body. Nyn kneeling over the corpse has a very...intimate feel to it. However, since she's going to live donkey's years, let's hope that Min just couldn't see that Nyn has a full head of white hair by the time that one comes true :)

 

A falcon and a - dammit, what is it? Blank sleepy brain here

[Barid Bel Medar]

@wvlr2-

Yeah, but Faile is not an actual falcon, nor Berelain a whatever the hell it was... Viewings are not so literal as all that.

That said in defense of your point, I do disagree with you. Much as we don't want it, it's surely Lan's body. Nyn kneeling over the corpse has a very...intimate feel to it. However, since she's going to live donkey's years, let's hope that Min just couldn't see that Nyn has a full head of white hair by the time that one comes true :)

 

A falcon and a - dammit, what is it? Blank sleepy brain here

 

Hawk ;D ;D

[Charlz Guybon]

Has it been implied that with the Pattern unraveling/loosening under the Dark One's pressure Min's viewings will be less reliable or is that just a mistaken impression I picked up somewhere?

[Luckers]

Has it been implied that with the Pattern unraveling/loosening under the Dark One's pressure Min's viewings will be less reliable or is that just a mistaken impression I picked up somewhere?

 

It's stated that if the Dark One wins Min's viewings will fail because the pattern will be destroyed, but I don't think her viewings are becoming more unreliable with the unravelling of the Pattern. They still seem to be working fine in tGS.

[aunt_pol]

Cheers Barid :)

 

What if, the reason the viewing over Nyn winked out was because in the moment that Rand almost bf'd Tam, he made a very sizable difference to his effect on the Pattern, or something suitably similarly metaphysical?

I mean, prior to that, Rand had as much as told Nyn that Lan was on his own going to Tarwin's Gap, and would have whatever support he could rattle up himself, that Rand was not going to help.  He even said something to the lines of Lan's death being useful.  What if, in all the changes brought on by nearly fryin' his pop, Rand does an about face and sends Perrin and his troupe of merry men to the North?  That could be the kind of change that allows the possibility of Lan surviving.

[FarShainMael]

What if, the reason the viewing over Nyn winked out was because in the moment that Rand almost bf'd Tam, he made a very sizable difference to his effect on the Pattern, or something suitably similarly metaphysical?

 

That is my feeling also, and I think we should expect sizeable ripples to spread out in the Pattern. Lan's survival (hopefully!) would be one such; there will no doubt be others. Arguably we've already seen another: VoG.

 

[aunt_pol]

Oooh can't wait for Oct.... When do y'all reckon we'll get the prologue? Sept? August, maybe? Thursday at 5?

[azrael.1289]

Oooh can't wait for Oct.... When do y'all reckon we'll get the prologue? Sept? August, maybe? Thursday at 5?

The last few weeks/months are always the most difficult to wait.  :(

[aunt_pol]

True... I'm reading Benjamin Franklin's autobiography now. Fine book, but just not doin' it for me...

[sumquy]

If foretellings always come true then where do the prophecies come from? I mean there seems to be some question in the minds of people in Randland about whether this prophecy or that one will be fulfilled at all, but if foretellings always come true then all of the prophecies HAVE to be fulfilled unless the GLoD breaks the wheel and they have already lost so the prophecies don't matter, but that doesn't happen until after the prophecy has been fulfilled so it has to happen because it was a foretelling... Wait, now my paradox wheel is spinning and I'm getting dizzy!

[farthammer]

Are you saying you don't think the DO can break the wheel until after the prophecies are fulfilled?

[sumquy]

Umm... kinda.

 

Mostly I was commenting on the paradox that since the prophecies are foretellings and foretellings always come true, then all this struggle seems kind of extraneous. I think I would just chill out and let everything come as it comes (because it HAS to) until time to go to SG and confront the GLoD directly. Of course, that doesn't make for nearly as entertaining a story, but not nearly as stressful.

[farthammer]

Well it was my understanding that genuine foretellings/minvisions come to pass only within the pattern itself, so if the DO were to end reality before half of them are fulfilled, they simply won't be.  Foretellings are in large part incredibly vague with some exceptions, so a person in Randland couldn't sit back and wait for a certain event to happen, because they can't be sure what that event even is.  Also as far as the old prophecies go there simply might be deliberate falsifications, and there's no way to verify.  Personally I think they are only in the story so RJ could have some fun with mystery and explore how different main characters' preconceived notions about what will happen.

[sumquy]

Personally I think they are only in the story so RJ could have some fun with mystery and explore how different main characters' preconceived notions about what will happen.

 

That's kind of my point. Metaphysical discussions on the nature of foretellings/Min's visions/etc. are kind of silly. Those things don't happen because they were foretold. They happen because the author wrote it that way.

 

Sometimes I think I just don't take this stuff seriously enough!