Age of Legends and the Dark One's Release - something seems odd.

[DocBean]

I'm a little confused about the entire plot of this series.

 

We're told that The Dark One was accidentally released when Lanfear and other Aes Sedai were investigating a new source of power.

They tapped into the bore and released the Dark One.

 

Then sides were chosen, and a power struggle began.

In that time Lews Therrin and his 100 companions fought and sealed off the bore trapping the Dark One and the Forsaken.

 

Here is what I don't get:

If the Dark One is so badass, why did he bother winning over the top 12 Aes Sedai to become "Chosen"

Why didn't he just start smashing the wheel and destroying all things before any resistance could be put up?

 

Was the Dark One weaker then, then he is now?

 

Why do we think once the Dark One is free the $#!+ will hit the fan?

It seems like the Dark One is a bit of a wuss. Rand has a remarkable advantage that Lews never had.

Rand knows to prepare for the Dark One's release. Lews never saw it coming.

 

Maybe the Dark One isn't a physical presence at all; maybe the Dark One is really just a source of Power.

So once he's released everyone will be able to tap into the True Power, and that is the real fear.

 

Maybe that's why the Chosen (currently only Moridin) are the only ones that can tap the True Power, because they had been partially sealed.

However, if that's the case - why does the Dark One have a voice, and the One Power does not?

 

Any ideas as to what Rand will really be facing?

Will things really change instantly once the Dark One is free?

What really happened when Lanfear released the Dark One during the Age of Legends?

It seems like we know a lot about that Age from the people that lived it, but we have no idea what the Dark One really is, or what he was capable of.

[JenLenaMom]

The DO wasn't totally free in the AoL either. He could touch the world more than he does now but not fully. And it wasn't only 13 AS that became the Forsaken that he had, there were whole armies of them, those were just the ones that got trapped in the Bore when it was sealed.

[DocBean]

Why can't the Forsaken bore into another spot in the Earth and release the Dark One from somewhere else?

If Lanfear and a handful of others did it the first time, I would think they could reproduce the same effect somewhere else.

 

Is the Dark One's prison a wine bottle, and there is really only one way out?

Is it possible that Lanfear popped the cork, and Lews basically corked it back up?

 

Could the Forsaken reopen it if they had the seals?

Why wouldn't they have been spending all their time looking for seals?

Why would Taim give one to Rand, who's trying to keep the Dark One bottled up?

 

If the Dark One's prison is a Wine bottle, then how would he become anymore free this time, then he was during the Age of Legends?

If he can affect the world this much through a weakened cork, why couldn't he destroy all things when there was no cork?

 

 

[draconian]

in LOC the forsaken repeatedly comment on the dangers of channeling in and arround the bore so enlarging the hole would cost him alot iun the way of his best weapons.

[MikeRiley]

About drilling the Bore in a new spot, I don't think they can do it with third age technology. Lanfear was in a pretty high tech looking building during the boring, we can assume there was something more to it than just a few fancy weaves of the power.

 

I think all of these questions are for the most part unanswerable. We'll learn their answers when we learn what Verin meant when she said the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is. Anything else is probably just speculation.

 

My idea is that the Dark One can't touch the world directly, but can influence minds. We know he doesn't create evil but merely magnifies what's already in peoples' hearts. I think the idea is that if he had more influence over the world it would offset the balance between good and evil that drives the Wheel and thus break it that way. He had more influence during the Age of Legends and so there were more followers, but there was Lews Therin, Aiel and the Light-side Aes Sedai to counter it back then. Now he's sealed up again and his weakened influence is countered by just Lews Therin. 

 

The state of the land is tied to Rand's mood. The harder he gets the worse things get. Everything the Shadow's done so far has had one real goal: cause or promote chaos. "Let the lord of chaos rule." In a sense, unless something drastic happens for Rand, he's only doing the Dark One's work by offsetting the balance even more. If he was able to restore enough order to counter the Dark One's influence over the world, I don't think the Dark One would be able to win.

 

Of course, that also leaves out the whole repairing of the Bore bit. Perhaps it's like a burning gas leak. First you fight the fire around it, then when it's cleared enough you can shut off the gas - fix the Bore and remove the influence so balance can be returned. Rand would probably need to die for this so that his influence over the world would be removed and "men" can take over.

 

 

[water_seeker]

Why can't the Forsaken bore into another spot in the Earth and release the Dark One from somewhere else?

If Lanfear and a handful of others did it the first time, I would think they could reproduce the same effect somewhere else.

 

It took a long time to drill the bore in the first place and they chose the spot because it was where the Pattern was thinnest and they could "sense" this other power stronger there than anywhere else.  I'm sure drilling somewhere else is possible, but would be a HUGE waste of time.  It would take longer than it took for the original bore and by then the story would be over.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Bore was drilled.

 

Dark one free to touch the world through bore.

 

Doesn't do much more than what Randland is like now.

 

Lews covers the bore with a plaster.

 

The plaster starts to weaken.

 

Peels off a bit some bad guys get out and then all of them.

 

Good guys fear the plaster completely falling off and the dark one being free.

 

Whats the big deal the bore was open before and all he did was bring back war. War and evil is already here. What more can the dark one do? Are they trying to completely blow the hole open so he can have a bigger effect. Does the bore get bigger the longer its open? Okay its not good being open but the dark one is trying to end the turning of the wheel by destroying the pattern. Just kill his minions and then seal the bore.

 

They shouldn't fear the bore becoming open just the forsaken and what they especially Moridin is trying to accomplish. Once they are out of the way they can take their time closing the bore.

 

[Agitel]

The bore isn't so much of a hole, but more like a thinning of the Pattern, as if all the threads have been stretched and, rather than being tight knit, are at risk of becoming looser. In the AoL, the DO had 100 years to pick at the Pattern, stretching it, pulling it apart, trying to untangle it so it all comes undone. The Seals prevented him from doing so. In my view, they also acted to tighten the Pattern back together. Not to fix it, but as a sort of bind over it to keep the Pattern pulled tight. As each Seal breaks, there's less in place keeping the Pattern held tight, and things are going back to how they were before the Bore was sealed.

 

As for why the Forsaken don't just keep 'boreing', keep in mind that where Shayol Ghul is was a special place where the Pattern was already thinner. In addition, we don't know what other technologies were being used to do so, and I'm guessing most of that technology was one-of-a-kind designed for what it was doing and that it was destroyed in the disaster that resulted from the immediate drilling. Even if it wasn't, I can't imagine that the world would just sit back and letting something like that happen again, likely making any endeavor as large and complex as that one was near impossible to repeat at the time. Keep in mind that Lanfear was heading a research project in the AoL at a large research institution. It's not just like she was acting independently.

 

As for your question about giving Rand a seal, perhaps, if Taim truly serves the DO, they thought it more important to put Taim in a position near Rand. The DO's plot is very much like the game of sha'rah (described in the last segment of the prologue to The Path of Daggers). There's a reason the Forsaken shifted gears from confronting Rand directly (it wasn't working) to causing chaos.

 

The DO's trying to manipulate Rand's actions without Rand even knowing.

[DocBean]

So what is everyone's opinion on what the Dark One is?

 

Is he some Giant Demon that Rand will physically fight?

I don't think so. I think he's more of a power.

 

The Yin Yang Aes Sedai Sign represents the good and bad of the world.

Like Star Wars, a positive force, and a negative force, Good and Evil.

 

The Dark One is the Negative force that drives the Wheel in my opinion.

So I think Rand can't defeat him, I think he has to contain him.

 

It's like those magnet levitation toys. There are magnets on either side, each of them push on a third magnet in the center.

If you use round magnets you can make the center one spin, like a wheel.

Remove one, and it spins out of control. So Rand can't Kill the Dark One, he has to contain him, and try not to let it get out.

 

However, if the Dark One is just a force to move the wheel. What is the Positive side of the Force, and why doesn't it have a voice?

[Agitel]

Well, first, it sounds like you're saying the Dark Side of the Force helps balance the Force, which isn't true. Walking on a balance beam requires balance. This is like the force. Anything that might cause you to lose your balance is the Dark Side. Or you can view the Force as a pond, it's in balance when the surface is still and undisturbed. The Dark Side is when the surface of the pond is disturbed, and it sends out ripples.

 

While I agree that the Dark One may be a balance to the Light, I think it's important to distinguish between the Shadow and evil/bad. Men do evil things and are guided by the Wheel. Bad things happen to people and are guided by the Wheel. But this is part of life and the Light. The Dark One, from everything we've been told, wants to destroy the Wheel. He runs counter to Creation, and creation encompasses both good and bad.

 

At least, that's the impression I've taken from the series. I don't see the DO as helping to turn the Wheel, but a force in opposition to it. And we believe that we have heard the Creator of the series speak, near the end of The Eye of the World, directly to Rand, telling Rand that he'll take no part.

[FarShainMael]

The Yin Yang Aes Sedai Sign represents the good and bad of the world.

Like Star Wars, a positive force, and a negative force, Good and Evil.

 

The Dark One is the Negative force that drives the Wheel in my opinion.

So I think Rand can't defeat him, I think he has to contain him.

 

Not so. Look up 'True Source' in the glossaries:

 

'The driving force of the Universe, which turns the Wheel of Time. Divided into a male half (saidin) and a female half (saidar).'

 

The Aes Sedai mandala represents the Wheel, with the black half saidin and the white half saidar. Good and evil aren't involved.

 

[DocBean]

The Yin Yang Aes Sedai Sign represents the good and bad of the world.

Like Star Wars, a positive force, and a negative force, Good and Evil.

 

The Dark One is the Negative force that drives the Wheel in my opinion.

So I think Rand can't defeat him, I think he has to contain him.

 

Not so. Look up 'True Source' in the glossaries:

 

'The driving force of the Universe, which turns the Wheel of Time. Divided into a male half (saidin) and a female half (saidar).'

The Aes Sedai mandala represents the Wheel, with the black half saidin and the white half saidar. Good and evil aren't involved.

 

What I'm saying is the Wheel needs a balance between the Creator and the Dark One.

If the True Source is turning the wheel, and it is balanced between Saidin and Saidar, then couldn't the True Power and One Power be balancing forces too?

If Rand destroys the Dark One, then couldn't we assume that will throw the balance of everything off, and destroy the wheel as well?

 

What I'm asking that no one is answering or even attempting to guess at is — what is the Dark One?

I don't believe he is a demon that will walk the land, if he is, there is nothing to allow him to do it in this Age, that wasn't an option in the last Age.

He cannot be more free by coming thru the Bore then he was in the 2nd Age. He didn't do much then, why is he a threat now?

So do you think he is something that will take a physical form and need to be fought?

 

Could it be possible that he's really just a form of energy and will need to be controlled or at least contained?

I will probably be upset if the Final Battle is between Rand and a Giant Demon looking thing which Rand will need to kill.

Seems to me that Killing the Beast isn't going to be an option.

I'm guessing Rand will need to either contain the Beast (like Lews), embrace the Beast and control him, or possibly ignore him (which will make him lose his power over Rand, and might be overly cheezy).

 

What do you think the Dark One really is?

[Hadilmir]

What do you think the Dark One really is?

[late night rambling]

 

The Dark One is the Past, he is Destruction. Existence is the fleetingly immeasurable amount of Time that makes up Now and the Dark One is the essence of Then, that which no longer is. The Bore is not a 'hole', the Bore is a weakening between Now and Then, Life and Death, Present and Past, Existence and Destruction. Saidin and Saidar push Existence along the Pattern, keeping it Now. The Dark One is trying to slow that Now and make it Then, destroying Time itself.

 

[/late night rambling]

[OldmanRand]

The DO is chaos, plain and simple.  The pattern, the wheel and everything in the light is ordered.  The DO is not "evil" in some of the ways we understand.  He does not seek to rule, does not seek power or influence, and isn't interested in controlling the lives of people.  He is only interested in destruction, fomenting chaos.  This is why he commands his troops to "let the lord of chaos rule."  Rand has been thrashing around in the world, stirring up more trouble and inciting violence as he attempts to "prepare" for the last battle.  But, in effect, he is already fighting the last battle, only on the wrong side! 

 

Maybe now that he has cried a little and even matured a bit, he will realize that he is not the only capable individual in the entire world - others need to be trusted to do the right thing.  He needs to make peace with the borderlanders and come to some arrangement with Seanchan.  He also needs to concentrate on feeding his people and healing some of the wounds he has opened in the world.  Once he starts down this path, Moridin will have to become active, pursuing the DO's agenda and revealing the Dark's hand.  Only then can the dragon enter the fight.

[Agitel]

What I'm asking that no one is answering or even attempting to guess at is — what is the Dark One?

I don't believe he is a demon that will walk the land, if he is, there is nothing to allow him to do it in this Age, that wasn't an option in the last Age.

He cannot be more free by coming thru the Bore then he was in the 2nd Age. He didn't do much then, why is he a threat now?

So do you think he is something that will take a physical form and need to be fought?

 

Could it be possible that he's really just a form of energy and will need to be controlled or at least contained?

I will probably be upset if the Final Battle is between Rand and a Giant Demon looking thing which Rand will need to kill.

Seems to me that Killing the Beast isn't going to be an option.

I'm guessing Rand will need to either contain the Beast (like Lews), embrace the Beast and control him, or possibly ignore him (which will make him lose his power over Rand, and might be overly cheezy).

 

What do you think the Dark One really is?

 

The Dark One was never free in the AoL. I don't see how you're saying he can't be more free than he was. Once all the seals are broken, the bore will be in the same state it was before it was sealed, and at that point the DO can again start working on unraveling the Pattern. He isn't trying to climb out of some hole, he's trying to make the Pattern fall apart. I agree that Rand's not going to be fighting some massive demon or anything.

 

The DO seems to be some sort of god. Perhaps even a counter balance to the Creator. Or at least, a counter balance to the Wheel. Perhaps he's necessary in some way. We don't know yet.

[Entretamis]

What do you think the Dark One really is?

[late night rambling]

 

The Dark One is the Past, he is Destruction. Existence is the fleetingly immeasurable amount of Time that makes up Now and the Dark One is the essence of Then, that which no longer is. The Bore is not a 'hole', the Bore is a weakening between Now and Then, Life and Death, Present and Past, Existence and Destruction. Saidin and Saidar push Existence along the Pattern, keeping it Now. The Dark One is trying to slow that Now and make it Then, destroying Time itself.

 

[/late night rambling]

 

 

wow...watch out for gray men or gholams.

[Barid Bel Medar]

From the information in the books etc. the creator sealed the Dark One outsidethe pattern (i cant remember where it says this exactly, most likely in the BWB but it is there) so basically its like a disease invading someone's body, an exterior force that is trying to destroy the interior force, if the DO was a counterbalance he would not have been separate from the pattern

[Hadilmir]

wow...watch out for gray men or gholams.

It's alright, I borrowed Mat's medallion a few weeks back and I haven't seen him since. Thanks for the warning anyway.

[Seaine Sedai]

My personal opinion is that The Wheel, The Pattern, The Age Laces, etc are all supposed to be metaphors.  However, the person(s) responsible for coming up with these metaphors did not entirely understand the whole concept, thus they are flawed metaphors.

We've often been told that the knowledge we glean from the characters themselves and the BWB is inherently flawed.

With there being a lack of an actual religion in the world of the WOT, it just seems to me that their belief about the Wheel, the Pattern, etc are very similar to how the majority of people in our world just assume that their religion, their Gods, etc is how the world was created.

Because really, everyone in these stories just ASSUMES all of that information to be true.  There are no scriptures (even the Prophecies I don't think directly mention the creation of the world or what happens in the turning of the Wheel).  The Creator himself never shows up and says "Behold!  Here's the truth of myself and the nature of the Dark One and this is why you need to keep fighting!"

 

The dramatic irony of the whole thing is that the real creator of the Wheel of Time was a man named James Rigney, who went by an alias, Robert Jordan, and unfortunately didn't finish the story of his creation, so one might even say that the Dark One (being Death) actually won...except that another Creator came along to pick up where it was left off. 

 

As long as there are Creators (writers/storytellers) out there the Wheel will keep turning.

 

 

As to the original parts of this thread w/ the AOL and the influence of the Dark One...remember by the time of the Bore people no longer remembered a Dark One even existed.  They were in an Eden of perfect harmony in life where everyone had good health, wealth wasn't important because everyone had what they needed, the greatest thing anyone could do would be the serve humankind, and they had amazing technology to study more on the nature of life and how to improve it.  It was this curiousity, and their innocence of not knowing about the Dark One, that let the darkness slip in.

 

It is just a parallel story to many of the ones in the world where humankind goes from having paradise and throws it away in a careless moment, leading to a complete fall from grace and then ever after seeking redemption for it.  Just in this story the events are cyclical so the people do redeem themselves and get back to that stage of innocence again eventually, only to repeat the fall from grace over and over again.  The problem is that they somehow manage to not preserve the knowledge from before in order to heed the warnings... "legend fades to Myth, and even Myth is forgotten when the Age that gave it birth returns again" The first chapter in every book reminds us of this.

[dirk]

What do you think the Dark One really is?

The Dark One is the Past, he is Destruction. Existence is the fleetingly immeasurable amount of Time that makes up Now and the Dark One is the essence of Then, that which no longer is. The Bore is not a 'hole', the Bore is a weakening between Now and Then, Life and Death, Present and Past, Existence and Destruction. Saidin and Saidar push Existence along the Pattern, keeping it Now. The Dark One is trying to slow that Now and make it Then, destroying Time itself.

 

I know I've heard this line of reasoning before somewhere - oh yeah ...

Dark Helmet: What the hell am I looking at? When does this happen in the movie?

Colonel Sandurz: Now. You're looking at now, sir. Everything that happens now, is happening now.

Dark Helmet: What happened to then?

Colonel Sandurz: We passed then.

Dark Helmet: When?

Colonel Sandurz: Just now. We're at now now.

Dark Helmet: Go back to then.

Colonel Sandurz: When?

Dark Helmet: Now.

Colonel Sandurz: Now?

Dark Helmet: Now.

Colonel Sandurz: I can't.

Dark Helmet: Why?

Colonel Sandurz: We missed it.

Dark Helmet: When?

Colonel Sandurz: Just now.

Dark Helmet: When will then be now?

Colonel Sandurz: Soon.

 

[Hadilmir]

I probably should include that said late night was late because I stayed up watching Spaceballs...  :D