A clue to Taim

[Shard]

People need to look up the definition of Red Herring because that's what the whole Taimandred thing was. I bet it was used to keep us from figuring out what Demandred was REALLY up to.

[Lacanos]

People need to look up the definition of Red Herring because that's what the whole Taimandred thing was. I bet it was used to keep us from figuring out what Demandred was REALLY up to.

That's exactly my point - it was a red herring.

[Sharaman]

I don't buy that he changed his mind on Taim=Demandred, if he isn't then he was never meant to be.

However, I don't buy him claiming that the similarities were accidental either, he was blatently out to confuse us.

 

Dragoncon 2005

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

RJ: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

 

If he was surprised, he wasn't intending it. Why would he lie about this?

 

[The Desert Pea]

I don't buy that he changed his mind on Taim=Demandred, if he isn't then he was never meant to be.

However, I don't buy him claiming that the similarities were accidental either, he was blatently out to confuse us.

 

Dragoncon 2005

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

RJ: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

 

If he was surprised, he wasn't intending it. Why would he lie about this?

 

 

I think he might have been surprised at the number of theories that popped up about Taimandred, not that there were Taimandred theories in general. That's how I read it anyway

[Suttree]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances

Well then I'll call you an idiot. I only have one good instance though.

 

Best thing I have read on this forum in a very LONG time. Might have to change my sig...

[Ashaman Kovan]

I'll call RJ a liar. I think there are a number of instances

Well then I'll call you an idiot. I only have one good instance though.

A response worthy of me. Excellent work.

 

Thank you sir. I drew inspiration directly from you.  ;D

 

Best thing I have read on this forum in a very LONG time. Might have to change my sig...

 

As of now I coin that quip. Royalties!! ;]

 

Top man Kovan, that made me laugh my head off  :D

 

Thanks. Though I will not take credit/blame for any losing of heads. ;]

[Ashaman Cody]

You are too funny.

[papertiger]

Look, I've read Raymond Chandler. I know what a red herring is and if that's really what RJ intended then it was a ham-fisted effort. Remember, this is the same author that considered the mystery of the Salidar Sitters to be worthy of attention while completely ignoring Verin, Thom, or Mat. This is the same author who let the story get away from him to the extent that we've learned more about the nature of Elayne's pregnancy than what Fain or Alviarin were up to. Anyone who's read this series knows that it suffered from a clear lack of focus in the later volumes, which is why Sanderson's book was so refreshing. All I'm saying--and I'm not precluding the possibility that Taim was supposed to be a diversion--is that RJ could have changed his mind and didn't want to admit it. Again, if the diversion is what he intended, then he's done an admirable job of keeping one of the story's most intriguing villains from the central plot, though I suppose it could serve to balance the fact that he removed one of the story's most intriguing protagonists--Moiraine--from the plot as well, clearing more than enough room for Faile's imprisonment, the young High Seats of Andor, the squabbling Ajah heads, and the beloved Sea Folk Windfinders. His judgment was not perfect. I'm sorry if that idea offends you but to me it's self-evident. 

[Vambram]

Look, I've read Raymond Chandler. I know what a red herring is and if that's really what RJ intended then it was a ham-fisted effort. Remember, this is the same author that considered the mystery of the Salidar Sitters to be worthy of attention while completely ignoring Verin, Thom, or Mat. This is the same author who let the story get away from him to the extent that we've learned more about the nature of Elayne's pregnancy than what Fain or Alviarin were up to. Anyone who's read this series knows that it suffered from a clear lack of focus in the later volumes, which is why Sanderson's book was so refreshing. All I'm saying--and I'm not precluding the possibility that Taim was supposed to be a diversion--is that RJ could have changed his mind and didn't want to admit it. Again, if the diversion is what he intended, then he's done an admirable job of keeping one of the story's most intriguing villains from the central plot, though I suppose it could serve to balance the fact that he removed one of the story's most intriguing protagonists--Moiraine--from the plot as well, clearing more than enough room for Faile's imprisonment, the young High Seats of Andor, the squabbling Ajah heads, and the beloved Sea Folk Windfinders. His judgment was not perfect. I'm sorry if that idea offends you but to me it's self-evident. 

 

Your opinion does not offend me. And your opinion should not offend any real fan of the WOT series because I am confident that most of us would agree that your opinion posted above is highly subjective as well as ... flat out incorrect.

[jemron]

I'm pretty sure we learned about Demandred's use of "proxies" before Taim showed up as a character "on-screen" and I highly doubt anybody theorized that Taim was Demandred before LOC (where Taim first appears in more than name).

 

My point is, Taim very likely is known/being used by Demandred and his one of Demmy's proxies.  The fact that he shares certain physical attributes or that he appeared in LOC right after we got an interesting POV from Demandred, or the many other "evidences" that people use to continue to claim that RJ ended up changing his mind, does not, nor will it ever, prove that Taim is/was Demandred.

 

I was fooled too.  I was sure Demandred was acting as Taim up until RJ debunked that theory.  Now, I am convinced this was an intentional red herring but that Taim is definitely in league with Demmy.

[papertiger]

Vambram, I think most people who've read the series would agree that it took a severe dive somewhere around ACOS. The plot got so bloated that the story was stalled in overwrought description of dresses and farriers, while the effectiveness of the narrative was disrupted by relatively unimportant characters like Romanda and Lelaine or Faile and Berelain. I like the Wheel of Time as much as the next guy, but let's not kid around here; Jordan was no Nabokov. He wrote Conan books, for God's sake! Again, that's why Sanderson was so refreshing. He actually gave priority to plot over detail, something RJ could never bring himself to do.

 

Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't rather have had Thom and Mat rescue Moiraine three books ago? Would you really rather read about Cadsuane teaching "the boy" about laughter and tears? The author made some very questionable decisions with regard to the pace and tone of the story, especially with regard to the characters involved. That's an objective truth.

 

Of course, I may not be a real WOT fan. I may even be an idiot, but even I realize this series should have been finished sometime before the World Cup in Korea/Japan. Jordan dropped the ball, plain and simple.

[Random Man]

Vambram, I think most people who've read the series would agree that it took a severe dive somewhere around ACOS. The plot got so bloated that the story was stalled in overwrought description of dresses and farriers, while the effectiveness of the narrative was disrupted by relatively unimportant characters like Romanda and Lelaine or Faile and Berelain. I like the Wheel of Time as much as the next guy, but let's not kid around here; Jordan was no Nabokov. He wrote Conan books, for God's sake! Again, that's why Sanderson was so refreshing. He actually gave priority to plot over detail, something RJ could never bring himself to do.

 

Can you honestly tell me you wouldn't rather have had Thom and Mat rescue Moiraine three books ago? Would you really rather read about Cadsuane teaching "the boy" about laughter and tears? The author made some very questionable decisions with regard to the pace and tone of the story, especially with regard to the characters involved. That's an objective truth.

 

Of course, I may not be a real WOT fan. I may even be an idiot, but even I realize this series should have been finished sometime before the World Cup in Korea/Japan. Jordan dropped the ball, plain and simple.

 

Having followed the books since 1995, I can say that tPoD was somewhat disappointing in its brevity, and CoT much more so with its lack of momentum (even RJ said he was a bit disappointed with that one in the end) but it's been a fun ride nonetheless. The cleansing in WH knocked my socks off. And I probably read KoD, the last book RJ competed in its entirety before he died, a dozen times. KoD reestablished everything that we came to love in the series and set up the imminent feeling of the impending conclusion, which would not have been possible without having something to build upon from the previous few books.

 

RJ was able to spin a story of such complexity that even his numerous minor characters took on multiple dimensions and weren't merely flat characters. Faile, hated though she is by most of the fan base, has done a lot to develop Perrin's character. In a way, so has Berelain. The complex tug-of-war between Lelaine and Romanda helped cement Egwene as the true leader she was, and also gave us significant insight into complex Aes Sedai politics. I didn't mind reading about them because it gave me a broader view into the world and the characters that populated it.

 

I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't want to have seen the events you described happen earlier if they didn't fit in with the ultimate conclusion, or if they ended up feeling rushed or garbled together. RJ knew what he was doing. It seems obvious that Moiraine's rescue, for example, wasn't meant to happen until near the very end -- for reasons that have been only barely hinted upon. And I'd like to see what's going to happen with Cadsuane. "Questionable decisions?" It was his story.

 

Let's be honest, it's not an "objective truth" as you put it, it's just your opinion. We've all got one.

 

Sometimes it's in the getting there that you experience the thrill of the ride.  If the series was finished already, I'd need to find something else to look forward to this fall. We're lucky that Harriet was able to find an author with the vision and dedication to see this series to the end with its internal spirit intact. But RJ didn't drop the ball. Everything he wrote, and everything we've read, was meant to be building toward the epic conclusion he had in mind when he started writing this series more than 20 years ago. Sorry if you don't see that, or don't enjoy the ride. You're missing out on something wonderful. 

[Phariah]

:'( very well said Random i agree 1000% with you  :'(

[papertiger]

Random Man, I've been following the series since 1996, so we're kind of in the same boat as far as waiting for new releases is concerned. I'm not denying that there aren't flashes of brilliance in those later books--the Cleansing, the escape from Ebou Dar, Rand at Shadar Logoth--but I would say that those scenes serve to highlight the deficiencies in the remainder of the plot for each entry. I wouldn't want the story to be rushed or garbled together either, and I don't just want a highlight reel of action sequences. I understand that a foundation needs to be laid out for an effective reveal to occur but there has to be a balance between pace and detail, and Jordan was definitely too indulgent. His vision of this world was so completely realized that it started to implode. A good story needs to keep its momentum, and while KOD did in fact reestablish everything that we came to love in the series, it did so at least two books too late. Besides, one got the impression that the sudden shift in pace for KOD had a macabre sense of urgency behind it.

 

Still, consider the decisions RJ made. Elayne leaves Ebou Dar at the beginning of TPOD and assumes the throne of Andor at the end of KOD. That's four whole books and seven years for that plot point and also to solve Adeleas' murder. Moiraine has been AWOL for seven books, since 1993! I'm also pretty sure that Thom has done nothing of consequence except sigh and look at Moiraine's letter since he got it at the end of LOC. Mat was AWOL for TPOD, returned and kidnapped Tuon, then spent another whole book, COT, sitting in Luca's circus. Rand had two chapters in that book. Trollocs attacked, were repelled. And sure, the dynamic between Faile and Berelain serves to highlight Perrin's emerging identity, but what traits has he really gained? He's no closer to reconciling his gentle nature with his Talent (which, frankly, is the most interesting aspect of his character). He has leadership, allies, and credibility, sure, but that can't take more than two books, and Faile was captured by the Shaido--just captured, mind you--at the end of TPOD, only to be rescued at the very end of KOD. That's three whole books and seven years. Just to rescue Faile. I'm not even going to get into how much time was wasted on Romanda and Lelaine (they served a purpose but the execution was so distended), let alone RJ's decision to write NS in the middle of this particular set of books.

 

I'm a patient reader, believe it or not. I usually read other types of literature than fantasy and I have no trouble enjoying long novels, especially when the style and tone are engaging. I've even got a degree in Comparative Literature; that's how much I love reading. So it's not that I'm missing out on something wonderful, you see. I enjoyed the first six/seven books of this series very much. It's that I've seen something wonderful--something that includes characters I love--become progressively hamstrung. I've seen these characters discarded for much less interesting replacements who rarely serve to further the central story. I've seen mysteries hinted at, seemingly forgotten, then reintroduced and desperately resolved. I've read more about dresses and garments and hair and beatific facial features than I care to admit. I've done these things so that I can see where the characters go, and in that sense I believe that Jordan did in fact drop the ball. It's his story and he did what he wanted with it (obviously), but it wasn't for the good of the story or the reader. He was too enamored with the world itself, and while every WOT fan might sympathize with that emotion, as a writer it was his responsibility, or at the very least his editor's, to stay on track. Neither did so, and that is the truth.

 

Oh, and if you ever need something to read after this series is all said and done, try "The Wind-up Bird Chronicle" by Hiroki Murakami. Dark mystery. "The Diamond Age" by Neal Stephenson or "The Gone Away World" by Nick Harkaway is good scifi, and Borges' short stories are perfectly abstract. I know it's pretentious, but I can't help myself. Besides, considering the way this post has gone, it seems I'm all-in.

[Guest Emu on the Loose]

All very well-said, and for what it's worth I agree with you that the wheels kinda fell off the bus around LoC. I've said it before here that I think Jordan's plans for the story were so ambitious that eventually the story got away from him.

 

I'm not one of those people who has a philosophical bent that fiction should be as concise as possible. Nevertheless, when we're talking about resolving minor plot details on a scale of "books" rather than "chapters" (let alone "pages"), it's irresponsible not to be critical. RJ was never a kid and deserves better than to be treated with the kid gloves of unqualified adulation. He bit off more than he could chew; that's a credit to his WoT premise, but a testament to his own limits as a writer.

 

Like you I'm in it till the end, although I didn't encounter the series until about 2005, so I haven't been waiting nearly as long as some others. Like you I'm still reading the books and even going so far as to spend my time posting on a WoT forum, so I'd say our affection for the series is not to be overlooked. And I do think that events began to pick up in KoD and finally hit a good pace again with TGS. I'm very excited about the two books yet to come, because so many big mysteries are about to be revealed. In that sense, RJ's work was successful: He's become a modern Scheherazade who has kept this tale going for 1001 nights...and about 6000 more on top of that.

 

But the criticism is well-met and well-earned.

[Vambram]

Papertiger, I started reading the WOT series back in 1991. I disagree with the harshness of your various criticisms. You are entitled to choose to believe whatever you want about RJ's "losing focus" of whatever else you want to call it. That is your opinion and an opinion that a minority of fans also believe.

However, it makes absolutely zero sense to me that almost each book since LoC outsold the previous books when they were released if those books are as badly written as you believe them to be.

I have some relatively minor criticisms towards tPoD, aCoS, and also CoT. However, the plots and the stories in those books had to be told completely in order for RJ to write the high epic fantasy series that he wanted to write, and that millions upon millions of readers wanted to read.

Therefore, papertiger, I disagree with the strong harshness of your criticism of Robert Jordan and the last few books he was able to write.

[Vambram]

 

Having followed the books since 1995, I can say that tPoD was somewhat disappointing in its brevity, and CoT much more so with its lack of momentum (even RJ said he was a bit disappointed with that one in the end) but it's been a fun ride nonetheless. The cleansing in WH knocked my socks off. And I probably read KoD, the last book RJ competed in its entirety before he died, a dozen times. KoD reestablished everything that we came to love in the series and set up the imminent feeling of the impending conclusion, which would not have been possible without having something to build upon from the previous few books.

 

RJ was able to spin a story of such complexity that even his numerous minor characters took on multiple dimensions and weren't merely flat characters. Faile, hated though she is by most of the fan base, has done a lot to develop Perrin's character. In a way, so has Berelain. The complex tug-of-war between Lelaine and Romanda helped cement Egwene as the true leader she was, and also gave us significant insight into complex Aes Sedai politics. I didn't mind reading about them because it gave me a broader view into the world and the characters that populated it.

 

I can honestly tell you that I wouldn't want to have seen the events you described happen earlier if they didn't fit in with the ultimate conclusion, or if they ended up feeling rushed or garbled together. RJ knew what he was doing. It seems obvious that Moiraine's rescue, for example, wasn't meant to happen until near the very end -- for reasons that have been only barely hinted upon. And I'd like to see what's going to happen with Cadsuane. "Questionable decisions?" It was his story.

 

Let's be honest, it's not an "objective truth" as you put it, it's just your opinion. We've all got one.

 

Sometimes it's in the getting there that you experience the thrill of the ride.  If the series was finished already, I'd need to find something else to look forward to this fall. We're lucky that Harriet was able to find an author with the vision and dedication to see this series to the end with its internal spirit intact. But RJ didn't drop the ball. Everything he wrote, and everything we've read, was meant to be building toward the epic conclusion he had in mind when he started writing this series more than 20 years ago. Sorry if you don't see that, or don't enjoy the ride. You're missing out on something wonderful. 

 

QFT

 

I read The Eye of the World in 1991 and I agree with everything you have said, Random Man.

[Beer Rot]

You obviously do care or you would concede the point that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Name calling now?  I don't care, but I believe it, and every time its mentioned I will state as such.

 

I'm sorry you're too weak minded to notice all the evidence that specifically showed Taim as Demandred.

 

The evidence is RJ's word. It's that simple. He said Demandred was never Taim. Therefore, he wasn't. It's not rocket science.

 

Exactly, rocket science is exact, its math, its 1+1=2.  RJ is a human, he's not infallible.  He can change his mind, he can even lie.  He won't go to hell or be breaking laws.  Maybe he did it as a joke, to continue silly internet debate, to create suspense, or maybe Taim really never was Demandred.  Until we have proof, all we have is the word of a human being.  Sorry, doesn't hold up in this court of law.

 

 

Also, why am I not surprised that you're turning to Bela jokes....

 

Because this is a message board about a fictional series, and I read both for my amusement and I was joking?  Why am I not surprised you take this series far too seriously.

 

There's a quote from "Good Morning Vietnam" that fits you pretty nicely.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Why can't we all just get along.

 

[Luckers]

Agreed. Or put another way--get along!

 

If you do not I will grow very cranky. /ModCommand.

[Suttree]

You obviously do care or you would concede the point that you don't know what you're talking about.

 

Name calling now?  I don't care, but I believe it, and every time its mentioned I will state as such.

 

I'm sorry you're too weak minded to notice all the evidence that specifically showed Taim as Demandred.

 

The evidence is RJ's word. It's that simple. He said Demandred was never Taim. Therefore, he wasn't. It's not rocket science.

 

Exactly, rocket science is exact, its math, its 1+1=2.  RJ is a human, he's not infallible.  He can change his mind, he can even lie.  He won't go to hell or be breaking laws.  Maybe he did it as a joke, to continue silly internet debate, to create suspense, or maybe Taim really never was Demandred.  Until we have proof, all we have is the word of a human being.  Sorry, doesn't hold up in this court of law.

 

 

Also, why am I not surprised that you're turning to Bela jokes....

 

Because this is a message board about a fictional series, and I read both for my amusement and I was joking?  Why am I not surprised you take this series far too seriously.

 

There's a quote from "Good Morning Vietnam" that fits you pretty nicely.

 

What court of law? Pointing out name calling? Bela jokes?

 

and calling RJ a lier...repeatedly if I recall previous posts. Have some respect sir. That is the lowest of low. Imagine if his family stumbled upon any of your posts to find you disrespecting the deceased in such away. Let the man and his honor rest, he made a clear statement of fact and it is not for you to question his integrity.

[Sharaman]

FWIW, RJ eliminated the theory as soon as he could.

Taim and Demandred were both introduced in LoC.

Neither gets more than stray references in ACoS and TPoD. Demandred not at all, if IIRC. Taim only at Dumai's Wells.

He couldn't introduce them into either book without messing up the narrative structure in his head.

In WH, RJ clearly debunked the Taim=Demandred hypothesis.

He did it as soon as he could with messing the narrative structure.

If he had intended Taim=Demandred, and then changed his mind, then the chances of some plot/ narrative inconsistency arising between LoC - KoD would have been high, given the detail and the parsing, legions of fans have put into WoT.

There is no apparent inconsistency anywhere if you believed Taim is not Demandred.

He went so far as to state that he was surprised that people thought Taim=Demandred.

Why would he lie about it instead of crowing "see, I fooled you"?

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

Ive decided every time this "RJ lied about Taimandred" comes up I will reply with my theory on Mazridin.

 

Through the Black Ajah, Mesaana tweaked events to get Taim out of Tar Valon and got him to Demandred. Demandred took Taim to Shayol Ghul so the Dark One could put Ishamaels soul in Taims body.

 

DEMANDRED: Have I not done well, Great Lord?

SHAI'TAN: You've done so well that I cant tell you for laughing. And I wont tell you how well you've done anyway because you helped someone else stay Nae'blis. Think what you want, fool! Complacency would be less fun and less productive (or counterproductive, depending on how you look at it).

 

Shapechange is possible with the True Power. First piece of support; worms in the Blight can transform. Second piece; human and animal can be merged to create Trollocs. Third; Slayer can not only change his appearance, but he can change his consciousness. The True Power can change you, we have seen it many times. I think Taims original appearance is Moridins, the one Graendal foams over; "Taim" is Moridins disguise. Rand wont figure it out as he never saw Taim, and if anyone else who DOES know Taim shows up, Moridin can use the "duuuh, I shaved" line. That comment was for Rands benefit; Moridin knows Rand is a commoner new to the real world and assumes Rand goes off basic principals such as "one Saldaean wont recognise another without a moustache." So Moridin uses the line, not only to make Rand believe him, but to make Bashere look stupid in Rands eyes, and it didnt go too bad considering Bashere didnt raise any more alarms. I bet Ishamael was thinking "Well, that was easier than I expected." When Moridin and Taim give seperate orders regarding Rand, there are several reasonable excuses for that as well. First off, Ishamael is "more than half mad" and as Moridin he is still prone to fits of rage; we saw him kill Maeric and he didnt even realise he had channeled the True Power. Ishamael is a manipulator and consistency between his orders to lesser minions means nothing to him. He tells people what he thinks will make them do what he wants the best, thats how you manipulate someone. And right now Ishamael is manipulating Rand to keep him away from the entire Black Tower, doing so by leaving AoL and Darkfriend references there that only "Lews Therin" might recognise, and he does that because it is common knowledge among the Forsaken that Rand knows things only Lewis should. All the references to Darkfriend leadership are known to Ishamael as he was top Dark Dog from the "beginning."

 

Ive wanted to get that off my chest for a looooooooong time.

 

Taim drops Demandreds name name into a conversation with Rand.

 

RAND: The Aes Sedai have sent more than I expected.

TAIM: Want me and the boys to go round?

RAND: No! If anything happens to them you'd better be scared.

TAIM: What, so if Demandred makes a move I take the stick?

 

Paraphrasing of course, but the gist is there. We know Demandred is a very safe player, and if he was Taim he would NEVER have mentioned his own name to Rand like that.

[JakeBarnes]

Ive decided every time this "RJ lied about Taimandred" comes up I will reply with my theory on Mazridin.

 

Through the Black Ajah, Mesaana tweaked events to get Taim out of Tar Valon and got him to Demandred. Demandred took Taim to Shayol Ghul so the Dark One could put Ishamaels soul in Taims body.

 

DEMANDRED: Have I not done well, Great Lord?

SHAI'TAN: You've done so well that I cant tell you for laughing. And I wont tell you how well you've done anyway because you helped someone else stay Nae'blis. Think what you want, fool! Complacency would be less fun and less productive (or counterproductive, depending on how you look at it).

 

Shapechange is possible with the True Power. First piece of support; worms in the Blight can transform. Second piece; human and animal can be merged to create Trollocs. Third; Slayer can not only change his appearance, but he can change his consciousness. The True Power can change you, we have seen it many times. I think Taims original appearance is Moridins, the one Graendal foams over; "Taim" is Moridins disguise. Rand wont figure it out as he never saw Taim, and if anyone else who DOES know Taim shows up, Moridin can use the "duuuh, I shaved" line. That comment was for Rands benefit; Moridin knows Rand is a commoner new to the real world and assumes Rand goes off basic principals such as "one Saldaean wont recognise another without a moustache." So Moridin uses the line, not only to make Rand believe him, but to make Bashere look stupid in Rands eyes, and it didnt go too bad considering Bashere didnt raise any more alarms. I bet Ishamael was thinking "Well, that was easier than I expected." When Moridin and Taim give seperate orders regarding Rand, there are several reasonable excuses for that as well. First off, Ishamael is "more than half mad" and as Moridin he is still prone to fits of rage; we saw him kill Maeric and he didnt even realise he had channeled the True Power. Ishamael is a manipulator and consistency between his orders to lesser minions means nothing to him. He tells people what he thinks will make them do what he wants the best, thats how you manipulate someone. And right now Ishamael is manipulating Rand to keep him away from the entire Black Tower, doing so by leaving AoL and Darkfriend references there that only "Lews Therin" might recognise, and he does that because it is common knowledge among the Forsaken that Rand knows things only Lewis should. All the references to Darkfriend leadership are known to Ishamael as he was top Dark Dog from the "beginning."

 

Ive wanted to get that off my chest for a looooooooong time.

 

Taim drops Demandreds name name into a conversation with Rand.

 

RAND: The Aes Sedai have sent more than I expected.

TAIM: Want me and the boys to go round?

RAND: No! If anything happens to them you'd better be scared.

TAIM: What, so if Demandred makes a move I take the stick?

 

Paraphrasing of course, but the gist is there. We know Demandred is a very safe player, and if he was Taim he would NEVER have mentioned his own name to Rand like that.

 

You have my attention, but I have one point to bring up. 

 

Moridin saved Rand's life in Shadar Logoth and Rand did not recognize him as Taim.  Also, when the crossed Balefire streams linked them they began to see visions of one another.  Rand also does not recognize the vision as Taim, but rather as the man from Shadar Logoth.  I would argue that in the visions Rand is seeing the 'true' face of Moridin, and not a disguise.  Therefore Moridin does not naturally have the appearance of Taim. 

 

Also, I've decided that every time this theory comes up I will reply with 'RJ said Taim is Taim'. ;D

 

I like this a LOT, btw, and it would definitely be interesting to see the twist which would allow it to be true.  I just think it much more likely that Taim is Taim and under Ishidin's thumb.

[OptimusPrime]

The point I was making about Taims appearance is that the Taim Rand sees is Moridins True Power altered appearance. Moridin the way he appear to the Forsaken is Taim. Could even be why none of the others think about Taim-hes dead, and Moridin took his body, Taim doesnt exist any more. When Rand has the visions, he sees Taims original appearance, not the slightly altered Taim appearance Moridin uses and covers up by being clean shaven.

 

Can we get an RJ quote of Taim is Taim? All I remember seeing wa an outright admittance that Taim isnt Demandred.