A clue to Taim

[supergirlfriday]

I would be very surprised if Taim turns out to be simply a 'high-up' DF. Though the original suggestion in this thread was that he's Demandred's proxy (which is, IMO, a reasonable assumption), I have been reading the Taim/Ishy/Moridin argument on here with interest. Of course, it won't be cut and dried until ToM or perhaps AMoL, but I think there is something of substance to the claims that Moridin is using the TP to pose as Taim in the Black Tower. At the least, it's an interesting theory to entertain in before we get to read the truth.

 

To me, RJ has proven himself such a skilled foreshadower (yes, I think I just made up a word! :)) that I would be super surprised - and even a lil disappointed - if the revelation of Taim's character wasn't something the size of the Moridin controversy. If he really is himself, that's just downright boring. RJ is much much much better than that.

 

After all the hints that have been dropped, from LoC on (aforementioned in this thread), and the literary symmetry (again, aforementioned) of having Rand's 'general' and Moridin's 'general' being the same person... I find it hard to believe that SOMETHING of this magnitude isn't about to put all these arguments to rest. I, for one, can't wait!!  ;D

[OptimusPrime]

I would be very surprised if Taim turns out to be simply a 'high-up' DF. Though the original suggestion in this thread was that he's Demandred's proxy (which is, IMO, a reasonable assumption), I have been reading the Taim/Ishy/Moridin argument on here with interest. Of course, it won't be cut and dried until ToM or perhaps AMoL, but I think there is something of substance to the claims that Moridin is using the TP to pose as Taim in the Black Tower. At the least, it's an interesting theory to entertain in before we get to read the truth.

 

To me, RJ has proven himself such a skilled foreshadower (yes, I think I just made up a word! :)) that I would be super surprised - and even a lil disappointed - if the revelation of Taim's character wasn't something the size of the Moridin controversy. If he really is himself, that's just downright boring. RJ is much much much better than that.

 

After all the hints that have been dropped, from LoC on (aforementioned in this thread), and the literary symmetry (again, aforementioned) of having Rand's 'general' and Moridin's 'general' being the same person... I find it hard to believe that SOMETHING of this magnitude isn't about to put all these arguments to rest. I, for one, can't wait!!  ;D

 

Woohoo! High five supergirlfriday!

[Owayn The Traveller]

Taim is not a darkfriend or a new chosen but rather someone who has an over inflated opinion of himself and who possible did suffer some effects of the taint like a touch of madness. His feelings of grandeur and anger issues. The shadow are playing on his weaknesses and using him unknowns to himself. And he did give the seal to Rand and did show concern for him. Okay, so he apparently ordered some ashaman to kill Rand. Again this doesn't necessarily mean he is an agent of the shadow. It is possible that he isn't happy with how things turned out under Rand and feels he could do a better job at being Dragon Reborn than Rand. He did claim he could of been the Dragen Reborn and when Rand quizzed him on not completing or fulfilling any of the prophecies Taim claimed that the histories would said he was.

 

This is possible. Its also possible that he is Moridin, just Taim, a new chosen, just a darkfriend or even he was turned. I prefer my thoughts on it though but the rest are all possible.

[Majsju]

Taim is not a darkfriend or a new chosen but rather someone who has an over inflated opinion of himself and who possible did suffer some effects of the taint like a touch of madness. His feelings of grandeur and anger issues. The shadow are playing on his weaknesses and using him unknowns to himself.

 

Except for the taint, you just described Elaida. I find it very hard to believe RJ would set up the leader of both the White and the Black Tower as being nearly identical on such an important issue.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Egwene and Rand did kinda echo each other a bit in the last book and there is some similarities in their past events.

 

Besides if a plan is working why devise another for a similar situation. Heck the black tower is even split into two factions like the white tower was. Elaida and the rebels and Taim and Rand/Logain.

 

Maybe the difference between the two situations will be someone turning out to be a traitor that we aren't expecting.

Two forsaken were looking after the Aes Sedai maybe the have two looking after the ashaman. One is Taim's puppeteer and the other in Logains group or maybe even Logain was turned. I doubt this myself thought o be honest but just because the shadow have used a plan before doesn't mean they won't again.

 

And as for RJ using a nearly identical situation twice maybe it might play out considerably different.

 

 

Also wasn't Arangar and Osangar translated as the right and left hands or daggers or something. Maybe Osangar sent to achieve the same task as Arangar and just fumbled. So they could of sent in someone else.

 

 

Taim is not a darkfriend or a new chosen but rather someone who has an over inflated opinion of himself and who possible did suffer some effects of the taint like a touch of madness. His feelings of grandeur and anger issues. The shadow are playing on his weaknesses and using him unknowns to himself.

 

Except for the taint, you just described Elaida. I find it very hard to believe RJ would set up the leader of both the White and the Black Tower as being nearly identical on such an important issue.

 

Hasn't it been argued that Elaida was tainted by the evil of Arihdol when she came into contact with Fain. So both could of been tainted.

[Duskfire]

The reason why its hard for a darkfriend - particularly a Forsaken - among Logains group is because he is an unknown element. He sort of came out of nowhere after being gentled and rose to the occasion. Thats the difference between that situation and the split Whitetower; they had been established in Salidar for awhile before Aran`gar was sent there. And besides, they already had Dashiva as part of Rands faction.

 

Its just incredibly hard not to see Taim as a darkfriend, particularly a high ranking one. He uses far too many phrases only Forsaken use, knows too many rare weaves, etc etc. I was a bit iffy really until the whole Lord of Chaos comment. Thats basically him waving a flag around that says "darkfriend alert" on it. It would be interesting if he wasn't, but he has far too much going for him being a known follower of the Shadow.

[Owayn The Traveller]

What rare weaves does Taim knows. As far as I can recall the only rare weave he has shown is testing for the ability. If knowledge of unknown weaves makes on a high ranking darkfriend then Rand is one, fair enough the memories of his past life or it actually being lews therin helped Rand, Egwene also discovered some rare weaves and also Elayne. The knowledge of rare or lost weaves doesn't necessarily make one an agent of the shadow. It could also point to someone with lots of experience in using the one power, especially in stressful situations like a battle or some such and someone strong in the power.

[OptimusPrime]

If knowledge of unknown weaves makes on a high ranking darkfriend then Rand is one, fair enough the memories of his past life or it actually being lews therin helped Rand, Egwene also discovered some rare weaves and also Elayne. The knowledge of rare or lost weaves doesn't necessarily make one an agent of the shadow.

 

The unusual weaves arent the only thing people talk about with Taim though. That is a single clue out of many that, added together, look very much like they point towards the Shadow.

[Duskfire]

If knowledge of unknown weaves makes on a high ranking darkfriend then Rand is one, fair enough the memories of his past life or it actually being lews therin helped Rand, Egwene also discovered some rare weaves and also Elayne. The knowledge of rare or lost weaves doesn't necessarily make one an agent of the shadow.

 

The unusual weaves arent the only thing people talk about with Taim though. That is a single clue out of many that, added together, look very much like they point towards the Shadow.

 

Exactly! Its not just the weaves. Its not even just the sayings he uses. Its also other things. How his main lieutenants were all darkfriends, darkfriends he personally ordered to kill Rand. How he runs the Blacktower; alot of it is based on propaganda, psychology, which while isnt neccessarily an evil trait, isn't a particularly good one either. Its when you add them all up that basically points a huge neon sign at Taim declaring him a darkfriend.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

Whether there is any validity to this simple theory or not, I've always had this scenario in my head where Taim and Logain are kind of like Rand's angel and devil -- Taim on one shoulder manipulating his 'bad' side and Logain on the other encouraging him to do the 'right' thing.  Just seems kind of plausible, given the nature and intentions of the two.

 

I, of course, do not like Taim but another scene I cannot get out my head when I think about him is when he bonded that one AS (I forget her name) and the scene in her POV when they had sex.  The whole idea of her feeling vulnerable, yet exhilarated, while laying with this man who is dangerous and powerful.  And the fact that she, like other AS, has always felt security in embracing the power but was completely defenseless in that regard because she was in this man's control and completely helpless without the OP.

 

As a female, I really enjoy these kinds of scenes!!  :)

[Sharaman]

Are you referring to Logain and Gabrielle describing her encounter to Toviene (WH Prologue)?

The only reference we have to Taim's sexuality is him watching Elayne's butt (also WH).

 

[The Desert Pea]

I would be very surprised if Taim turns out to be simply a 'high-up' DF. Though the original suggestion in this thread was that he's Demandred's proxy (which is, IMO, a reasonable assumption), I have been reading the Taim/Ishy/Moridin argument on here with interest. Of course, it won't be cut and dried until ToM or perhaps AMoL, but I think there is something of substance to the claims that Moridin is using the TP to pose as Taim in the Black Tower. At the least, it's an interesting theory to entertain in before we get to read the truth.

 

To me, RJ has proven himself such a skilled foreshadower (yes, I think I just made up a word! :)) that I would be super surprised - and even a lil disappointed - if the revelation of Taim's character wasn't something the size of the Moridin controversy. If he really is himself, that's just downright boring. RJ is much much much better than that.

 

After all the hints that have been dropped, from LoC on (aforementioned in this thread), and the literary symmetry (again, aforementioned) of having Rand's 'general' and Moridin's 'general' being the same person... I find it hard to believe that SOMETHING of this magnitude isn't about to put all these arguments to rest. I, for one, can't wait!!  ;D

 

Would it really be that disappointing though if Taim really is just Taim and not a Forsaken in disguise (which he isn't :p)? It'd put him on his own level of awesomeness since he would be comparable to an AoL Forsaken in terms of sheer potential with the One Power. There's also evidence supporting him to be a newly raised Forsaken, which in and of itself is pretty freaking impressive. The DO looks down on the 3rd Agers when compared to those from the AoL, so if he has earned the respect of the DO and made a Forsaken then the last thing I'd call Taim is Taim is Taim theory would be disappointing.

[supergirlfriday]

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for Taim to be Taim... as long as, like you said, his plot revelation is something as 'big' as a new Forsaken. There's too much effort being put into the story for anything less, no?  8)

[Thor]

Right this is ridiculous. Taim is not Morridin, for one thing, Morridin is taller than Taim, height is one of the things that can seriously mess up one power disguises.

 

Not that I am a believer in MoriTaim, but remember KOD? Semirhage, who is taller than the avergae guy, quite successfully uses MoM to pose as tiny Tuon.

 

Maj, they were far away at a distance. Taim has been within arm's reach of Rand, although I don't believe they ever actually touched. Closest was when Taim handed the seal over to Rand I think.

[Chriswot]

I think taim is taim with some of the taint manifested in his head.  When the taint takes a man what does it do?  Does the dark one whisper things to him?  Does the dark one whisper to taim to "Let the Lord of Chaos rule"?  Or does the dark one give him instructions through a chosen such as Demandred? 

 

I think the reason nobody knows so much about Demandred is because he was captured by Aes Sedai and gentled in book 1.  Later healed by Nynaeve.  Yes i think D is Loghain.  He is giving instructions to Taim dirrectly through M or the DO.  Now about this Halo min sees.  Well has it not been said "No man may walk in the shadow so long, that they cannot return to the light"  I think D/L will see the error of his ways through LTT reborn in Rand Al'thor.  Come to his senses and change alleigances at an explosive climax allowing Rand to fulfill the last of his prophecies and Win TG!

 

Don't have a terrible amount of evidence its just a thought and a feeling.  It is afterall what nobody really expects and RJ was good at doing that. 

 

[Sharaman]

Ah, there are fairly good reasons why Demandred cannot be Logain.

One is various statements by RJ by Demandred's secret (edit: insert) "identity" not appearing onscreen.

Another is timelines - Demandred is wandering around doing things (LoC prologue - a day after the Caemlyn attack) while Logain is still hors de combat until much later in LoC.

But nice try.

 

[Chriswot]

ah yes true the prologue has the "let the lord of chaos rule quote".  It seemed to me that i remembered Demandred only having activities in the dreamworld though before LoC~  Could the prologue take place after Loghain is freed from Salidar?  Are the prologues of the series typically set on a timeline consistent with the rest of the story?  It still seems like a clever bit of misconception on Rj's part.  If D has any active lines or scenes not within TAR please let me know what book they are in so i can go back and disprove my own madness.^^

 

Demandred was second best at everything LTT did.  Maybe he places himself so close to Rand to see where he went wrong.  Maybe he's having second thoughts after the 3 thousand years imprisoned.  Maybe he wants redemption(Halo).  Can a chosen have second thoughts without the DO knowing?  Then again Loghain could be Loghain.  I just can't wait till November!! 

[Sharaman]

The prologue conversation between GLoD and Demandred is clearly occurring the day after Rahvin died.

Read it again.

Logain is healed and freed much later - the internal timing is absolutely off.

This is very easy to date chronologically - there are direct quotes and events.

Egwene is a good connecting factor - Nyn-Elayne meet with her in TAR after Egwene has recovered from the damage Lanfear did to her on the morning of the Camelyn attack.

 

 

 

[haloun]

also robert jordan HAS stated that we have NOT EVEN ONCE  seen demandreds alter ego.  so it CANNOT be taim.

[LewsTherinIsABeast]

I've really thought on this and im still reading CoT and I think that Taim will turn towards The Dragon. Before you start telling me off I have another theory; Rand will kill Taim at Tarmain Gaidon(I think I spelled it wrong)before he kills the Shadow and before his own death Just give it thought..

[sonieb33]

Shadowspawn can't go through gateways because they are constructs of some sort, right?  Constructs made with the TP? (I'm not sure about the specifics of this)

 

Might there be a difference between a gateways made with the One Power and a gateway made with the True Power?  Might a gateway made with the TP have a different effect (or NO effect) on a construct made with the TP?

 

I don't think it's likely, but what do you guys think about that?  I'm curious now.  Such a possibility could be a bit of a game-changer.

 

Maybe somebody already pointed this out idk but travelling with the TP tears a hole in the pattern whereas with the OP it's different, folding or some such. I am pretty sure it's been said for sure that the two are different but I don't have any exact quotes or references. I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[yoniy0]

I want to go back to something gambril and Vermillion discussed a few pages back, though apparently in a slightly different context. If my searching skills have failed me, and this has already been discussed, I'm sorry.

I'm referring to the following excerpt from WH's prologue:

[Taim] moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

Now, I just saw the following Twitter messages:

@BrandonSandrson Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

@BrandonSandrson "... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

@HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

So, Brandon as good as told us that Taim has used the True Power, right?

[mossman87]

Welp, certainly looks that way.

[sonieb33]

I want to go back to something gambril and Vermillion discussed a few pages back, though apparently in a slightly different context. If my searching skills have failed me, and this has already been discussed, I'm sorry.

I'm referring to the following excerpt from WH's prologue:

[Taim] moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

Now, I just saw the following Twitter messages:

@BrandonSandrson Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

@BrandonSandrson "... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

@HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

So, Brandon as good as told us that Taim has used the True Power, right?

 

Ok, so this MAY actually be significant. If Taim has used the TP it had to be before Moridin became Nae'blis (or however you spell it) because I know I've read at least once that ONLY Moridin has permission to use the TP now. Also, has anyone wondered why there were three extra chairs at that one Forsaken meeting? Maybe this implies there are, or will be, three new "chosen"? Also, he couldn't have been using the TP much because he'd be getting saa and there's no evidence of that.

 

Plus, I think a lot of people noticed it, they just didn't think it was significant. Certain things are just expected. We have a pretty good idea that Taim is 'off the reservation' (hope I don't offend anyone with my choice of idiom) so to speak. So that's just par for the course with Taim. We noticed it, Brandon, we just didn't mention it  :D.

 

I think Rand only was able to use it through his link with Moridin; whether permission was specifically granted Rand by the LotD or whether he got it by proxy through Moridin remains to be seen. It seems logical that the LotD would want Rand to use the TP because he can probably turn him to the dark side by getting him to use it...like I think was beginning to happen. Only after ONE time too! They aren't kidding when they say it's addictive and all that, eh? Sheesh. One time and he's already sucking the life out of the air around him.

[OptimusPrime]

I want to go back to something gambril and Vermillion discussed a few pages back, though apparently in a slightly different context. If my searching skills have failed me, and this has already been discussed, I'm sorry.

I'm referring to the following excerpt from WH's prologue:

[Taim] moved with something of a Warder’s deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light.

Now, I just saw the following Twitter messages:

@BrandonSandrson Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

@BrandonSandrson "... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

@HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

So, Brandon as good as told us that Taim has used the True Power, right?

 

Insert maniacal laughter.