Demystifying the Song

[Pandemonium]

1.  That the seedsong that the Daishain Aiel used is related to the One Power (it could be, but I haven't seen any confirmation of it yet)

 

Lacanos is correct. You did not read the theory. From the first post...

 

Farmland produced optimum yield through use of the One Power. In a method called "seed singing," Ogier (a separate race of beings gifted with the ability to aid and enhance growing things), Nym, and Da'shain Aiel worked as a team, focusing the One Power to insure perfect growth for every field they "sang."

 

Luckers, I actually did read your theory.  But your theory made it seem like people had to be able to channel in order to use the song (in quote below).  I see now that your were implying that seed-singing uses the One Power, and it could therefore learning to 'sing' could contain the same dangers as learning to channel.  I still would disagree with that assertion, if that is indeed what you were trying to say.  I don't think we heard of any of this happening with Loial and his singing.  This is definitely a gray area, and it is why I still think it would be a great question to ask to the WoT team. I don't want to speculate on that anymore, because I don't think there is any firm facts that would answer this question. 

 

 

Discovering it will not be as simple as having one of the Tuatha’an walk the Glass Columns, hear the words, and repeat it. They will need the Talent of the Voice, and even then it might take training with someone else with the Talent—this is the One Power we are talking about. It kills those that don’t know how to use it properly, and that’s presuming the Talent even remains in the gene pool—which, given the decline in Talents since the Age of Legends, may well be a pretty big presumption.

 

 

 

 

[CUBAREY]

However, that's not, IMO, what the break-off faction was talking about when the tinkers left the Aiel. It doesn't seem to fit.

 

I disagree it fits perfectly. One of the primary duties of Aiel was to help the groawth of crops through Seed Singing. By the time of the break-off the Aiel had forgotten much of what they were, they still had stories surrounding a miraculous "song" that they sung but they did not know much else about it. Thus, the song that Tinkers seek is the seedsong although they are not aware of that fact.

[Lacanos]

However, that's not, IMO, what the break-off faction was talking about when the tinkers left the Aiel. It doesn't seem to fit.

 

I disagree it fits perfectly. One of the primary duties of Aiel was to help the groawth of crops through Seed Singing. By the time of the break-off the Aiel had forgotten much of what they were, they still had stories surrounding a miraculous "song" that they sung but they did not know much else about it. Thus, the song that Tinkers seek is the seedsong although they are not aware of that fact.

No. They were not talking about a specific song, the original break-away faction spoke of "the old songs":

"Sulwin stepped back, then held his ground with his companions. “No, Adan. We are supposed to find a place of safety, and some of us mean to do that. My greatfather used to tell me stories he heard as a boy, stories of when we lived in safety and people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again.”

 

“Sing?” Adan scoffed. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do. The songs are gone, and the old days are gone. We will not give up our duty to the Aes Sedai to chase after what is lost forever.”

 

“Some of us will, Adan.” The others behind Sulwin nodded. “We mean to find that safe place. And the songs, too. We will!”"

 

The song has evolved in the tinker mythos over time into a miraculous thing.

 

[wipe]

And your quotes fit perfectly with what Cubarey is saying. Of course it has developed into mythos, but it seems pretty evident to me that the "old songs" are different kinds of seed songs- of course I can be very wrong. I hope we get an answer to this in the next book.

 

I think it's just a basic misunderstanding by the Tinkers, they mean Singing, but they call it the song because they have forgotten what they are seeking. I find it amazing that it hasn't evolved further away from the original quest in 3000 years. Just look at what happens to other belief systems... Not many of them have stayed so close to the core for 3000 years ;-)

[Lacanos]

And your quotes fit perfectly with what Cubarey is saying. Of course it has developed into mythos, but it seems pretty evident to me that the "old songs" are different kinds of seed songs- of course I can be very wrong. I hope we get an answer to this in the next book.

 

I think it's just a basic misunderstanding by the Tinkers, they mean Singing, but they call it the song because they have forgotten what they are seeking. I find it amazing that it hasn't evolved further away from the original quest in 3000 years. Just look at what happens to other belief systems... Not many of them have stayed so close to the core for 3000 years ;-)

The Seed Song in the BWB is one specific song. Therefore, I don't feel it's what they mean. "people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again"

[CUBAREY]

The Seed Song in the BWB is one specific song. Therefore, I don't feel it's what they mean. "people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again"

 

Your simply buying into Adan's error. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do." Adan has heard the stories that people came to listen tothe Aiel singing and presumes this must mean that there were multiple songs that that they sang. The truth is they did Seed Singng (to the extent that it can be called a song it was one song)but all they remember is that their singing was wonderous and associated with peace.

[Lacanos]

The Seed Song in the BWB is one specific song. Therefore, I don't feel it's what they mean. "people came to hear us sing. We mean to find a place where we can be safe, and sing again"

 

Your simply buying into Adan's error. “I have heard those old stories, too, that Aiel singing was a wondrous thing, but you know those old songs no more than I do." Adan has heard the stories that people came to listen tothe Aiel singing and presumes this must mean that there were multiple songs that that they sang. The truth is they did Seed Singng (to the extent that it can be called a song it was one song)but all they remember is that their singing was wonderous and associated with peace.

 

No, you absolutely cannot prove this. I'm sorry, but there's no evidence in what he's saying that that's true. Both of them mention "the songs", note the plural.

I think the question we should be asking is: was that RJ's intention? Certainly, it does seem a bit odd to have a break-off from the Aiel searching for some completely unheard-of songs, but that could be a false trail again.

[coreybickle]

Does anyone else see the impact of the ter'angreal that has thousands of fiction and non fiction books from the Age of Legends? Like, maybe a ...oh i don't know....SONG BOOK???? WITH LYRICS???

[FarShainMael]

Not to mention this:

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/ivory_box.html

 

I believe there have also been hints that Noal and / or Thom may know something about it.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

I think the whole point Luckers is trying to make (and I may be mistaken sorry Luckers ;D)

Is that the "Song" is not an actual song, but an ability or Talent (if it does indeed focus on the OP)

So its not a question of finding "A SONG" but the discovery of singing...If that makes sense.

Its like learning to play the guitar chords.

YOu dont launch straight in and try to play a song, you first learn "HOW" to play, so you can then play "ANY" song.

 

If thats not what Luckers is trying to say, well i suppose thats what I am trying to say haha ;D

 

Of course, any of the other theories here could be possible, but I doubt it would be (it is RJ here) as plain as finding a specific song that makes everything right again, sounds a bit lame.

[Luckers]

No, you got it.

 

The words don't matter, it's the Talent that is important. Simply making the same sounds will not give the Tinkers Seed Singing any more than them making the noises the Ogier make gave them Treesinging. Seed Singing is a vocalisation of power, not the power itself.

[Fains nose]

I reckon the seed singing Talent will just suddenly appear in a whole lot of Aiel/Tua'than, like how the sniffing talent just appeared in Hurin late in his life.

[Durinax]

I reckon the seed singing Talent will just suddenly appear in a whole lot of Aiel/Tua'than, like how the sniffing talent just appeared in Hurin late in his life.

very possible but I think that tua'than often visit ogier (place of safety) so they should have been recognized sooner. Aiel is a distinct possibility since they only sing dirges for the dead 'they only sing dirges for the dead, which could make a stone weap' EotW

[Skeeve the Great]

Luckers,

 

You've forgot another application of the Song. To soothe. In Rand's vision of the past there was a scene where Aiel were standing around mad male Aes Sedai singing. The effect of their singing was that much significant that at times mad Aes Sedai was just standing listening to them. But eventually, all Aiel died out and madman was unleashed to do the damage.

 

I think that this Song, which Aiel were performing, has very significant role. It may be the key to the whole thing.

[Durinax]

The Song is actually Attack by System of a Down jk

[DaughterOfNight]

 

I cannot give any specifics but my idea is that the Song is not a literal song but it will be symbolic of sorts.  I'm sure for you seasoned forum members you will roll your eyes at my so obvious theory but I shall announce it anyway:

 

Somehow Perrin, the Aiel, Ogier and the tinkers will all be involved with the Song.  The Aiel sing, the Ogier sing and the tinkers are looking for the Song.  Perrin, I forget how, is also involved with all this.  The Ogiers songs are geared toward growth, peace and nature...etc, the Aiel sing for the dead and such.  I think that there will be some sort of situation where there will be a 'spiritual enlightenment' of a sort and the tinkers will be captivated and moved by it. 

 

Where and when, I have no idea, but I do foresee it to be quite a spiritual and sentimental scene :)

[Durinax]

 

I cannot give any specifics but my idea is that the Song is not a literal song but it will be symbolic of sorts.  I'm sure for you seasoned forum members you will roll your eyes at my so obvious theory but I shall announce it anyway:

 

Somehow Perrin, the Aiel, Ogier and the tinkers will all be involved with the Song.  The Aiel sing, the Ogier sing and the tinkers are looking for the Song.  Perrin, I forget how, is also involved with all this.  The Ogiers songs are geared toward growth, peace and nature...etc, the Aiel sing for the dead and such.  I think that there will be some sort of situation where there will be a 'spiritual enlightenment' of a sort and the tinkers will be captivated and moved by it. 

 

Where and when, I have no idea, but I do foresee it to be quite a spiritual and sentimental scene :)

do you mean that the Ogier will sing a song of growing, say at the end of a battle to grow a grove of trees to commemorate it or some bs

then the Aiel will sing their dirges

and the tuathaan will be inspired to add their bit

and the combination of the three with create the song?

[Dazzling Urbanite]

I disagree with the premise of the initial poster - that the "Song" is not real - but i do appreciate the topic - its a great one.  I believe it is real - and Skeeve the Great - beat me to it.  Rand is going to go insane - and it will happen when he close to defeating the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon.  The Song will be found before that and the Aiel will sacrifice themselves and keep him sane through the Song - just as they did with Lews Therin.  And I believe (during Rand's trip through the eyes of his ancestors at Rhuidean) one of the Aes Sedai says that the Aiel saved many lives with that Song.  And it is my supposition that they will do so again. One of the reasons I think so is that in The Shadow Rising, after Rand has these visions in Rhuidean, a few chapters later,  the Tinkers show up in Emond's Field and, of course, in their greeting to Perrin, they discuss their search for the Song.  I think that this was Jordan's way of tying it all together in a way that doesn't slap you in the face with it.

 

The idea of the Song is such a cool idea and it is such a great plot device for it not to play a bigger role in this series.  Its barely mentioned throughout the series and I think that is because it will play a role in these last couple of books with the Aiel/Tinkers singing the Song to keep Rand sane in those last few moments before victory.

 

And - here's something that might irritate a lot of people.  Has anyone read the "Incarnations of Immortality" series by Piers Anthony?  There is an eerily similar concept of the Song and the search for the Song by a gypsy-like people (kind of like the Tinkers).  I tried researching the gypsy/Romani people and any possible mythology regarding a mystical Song - but found nothing. I even emailed Piers Anthony to see if there was any historical basis for how he used the Song in his books and he replied that the Song was his idea and that there was no historical basis. And therefore, the conclusion I reached - and I really hope that I am wrong - is that Robert Jordan bogarted this idea from Piers Anthony, as Anthony's books were written first.  Again - I really hope that I am wrong.  Can anyone out there help prove me wrong?

[Barid Bel Medar]

I disagree with the premise of the initial poster - that the "Song" is not real - but i do appreciate the topic - its a great one.  I believe it is real - and Skeeve the Great - beat me to it.  Rand is going to go insane - and it will happen when he close to defeating the Dark One at Tarmon Gaidon.  The Song will be found before that and the Aiel will sacrifice themselves and keep him sane through the Song - just as they did with Lews Therin.  And I believe (during Rand's trip through the eyes of his ancestors at Rhuidean) one of the Aes Sedai says that the Aiel saved many lives with that Song.  And it is my supposition that they will do so again. One of the reasons I think so is that in The Shadow Rising, after Rand has these visions in Rhuidean, a few chapters later,  the Tinkers show up in Emond's Field and, of course, in their greeting to Perrin, they discuss their search for the Song.  I think that this was Jordan's way of tying it all together in a way that doesn't slap you in the face with it.

 

The idea of the Song is such a cool idea and it is such a great plot device for it not to play a bigger role in this series.  Its barely mentioned throughout the series and I think that is because it will play a role in these last couple of books with the Aiel/Tinkers singing the Song to keep Rand sane in those last few moments before victory.

 

And - here's something that might irritate a lot of people.  Has anyone read the "Incarnations of Immortality" series by Piers Anthony?  There is an eerily similar concept of the Song and the search for the Song by a gypsy-like people (kind of like the Tinkers).  I tried researching the gypsy/Romani people and any possible mythology regarding a mystical Song - but found nothing. I even emailed Piers Anthony to see if there was any historical basis for how he used the Song in his books and he replied that the Song was his idea and that there was no historical basis. And therefore, the conclusion I reached - and I really hope that I am wrong - is that Robert Jordan bogarted this idea from Piers Anthony, as Anthony's books were written first.  Again - I really hope that I am wrong.  Can anyone out there help prove me wrong?

 

I can.

 

Your theory is wrong.

[Dazzling Urbanite]

Wonderful! I'm glad to hear it.  What is the basis for your statement?

[Barid Bel Medar]

Wonderful! I'm glad to hear it.  What is the basis for your statement?

 

For reasons above stated, that thats one way to prove it, that your theory regarding the song, which seesm to be taken from this other piece, is not what actually happens in the next books.

 

"Singing" is a talent, or else anyone would be able to sing that particular song. It is not the song thats important, its  the talent or ability that the Dishan Aiel have, along with the Nym and Ogier that makes things grow.

 

I use the Ogier as a similar example. Loial does not sing a particular song, but it is "tree singing" as a talent/ability that allows him to produce sung wood.

Thus it is the same as the Tinkers, not a song, but an ability.

 

 

[Skeeve the Great]

For reasons above stated, that thats one way to prove it, that your theory regarding the song, which seesm to be taken from this other piece, is not what actually happens in the next books.

 

"Singing" is a talent, or else anyone would be able to sing that particular song. It is not the song thats important, its  the talent or ability that the Dishan Aiel have, along with the Nym and Ogier that makes things grow.

 

I use the Ogier as a similar example. Loial does not sing a particular song, but it is "tree singing" as a talent/ability that allows him to produce sung wood.

Thus it is the same as the Tinkers, not a song, but an ability.

 

I think it's semantics. You say "Singing", others say "Song". In my opinion it's the same thing. It refers to the effect the particular singing has on living beings(crops for one, Aes Sedai for another). "The Song", as it's used by me, for example, does not reflect only the words of the song. Otherwise it would be "The Poem" or something. The Song consists of words, music and the way the music is played and sounds. What the original post singling out is the last part - the way the music is played and sounds, or another word the Singing, the talent, or whatever. But I think it's more than that. It well may be that there are in fact many Songs, with similar effects, or maybe for different living beings there are different Songs. And yes, the Singing talent is obviously very important for the Song to have the intended effect.

[Barid Bel Medar]

For reasons above stated, that thats one way to prove it, that your theory regarding the song, which seesm to be taken from this other piece, is not what actually happens in the next books.

 

"Singing" is a talent, or else anyone would be able to sing that particular song. It is not the song thats important, its  the talent or ability that the Dishan Aiel have, along with the Nym and Ogier that makes things grow.

 

I use the Ogier as a similar example. Loial does not sing a particular song, but it is "tree singing" as a talent/ability that allows him to produce sung wood.

Thus it is the same as the Tinkers, not a song, but an ability.

 

I think it's semantics. You say "Singing", others say "Song". In my opinion it's the same thing. It refers to the effect the particular singing has on living beings(crops for one, Aes Sedai for another). "The Song", as it's used by me, for example, does not reflect only the words of the song. Otherwise it would be "The Poem" or something. The Song consists of words, music and the way the music is played and sounds. What the original post singling out is the last part - the way the music is played and sounds, or another word the Singing, the talent, or whatever. But I think it's more than that. It well may be that there are in fact many Songs, with similar effects, or maybe for different living beings there are different Songs. And yes, the Singing talent is obviously very important for the Song to have the intended effect.

 

That may indeed be possible, however, that is not what others have been posting. From what I gather, people are suggesting that the song is exactly that "A Song" that will heal everything, but the point is that there are many songs that do similar/same/different things, and that it is the "Singing" that is the real key.

 

Thats what this post is about, the actual presence of "a Song" is not the point, it is the skill of Singing that the Tinkers are looking for.

 

In any case, Loial doesnt sing the same song every time he produces sung wood, its not a set thing, its the act of SINGING, the talent, whatever actual chord/rhythem or whatever you want that is not important, its the fact he has the talent to make sung wood from "SINGING"

 

So Singing and the Song are no where near the same theory, they are widely different.

[Skeeve the Great]

That may indeed be possible, however, that is not what others have been posting. From what I gather, people are suggesting that the song is exactly that "A Song" that will heal everything, but the point is that there are many songs that do similar/same/different things, and that it is the "Singing" that is the real key.

 

Thats what this post is about, the actual presence of "a Song" is not the point, it is the skill of Singing that the Tinkers are looking for.

 

In any case, Loial doesnt sing the same song every time he produces sung wood, its not a set thing, its the act of SINGING, the talent, whatever actual chord/rhythem or whatever you want that is not important, its the fact he has the talent to make sung wood from "SINGING"

 

So Singing and the Song are no where near the same theory, they are widely different.

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

But I also think there is a possibility of existence of one particular Song that may be very close to Heal everything. For example, consider tree-signing. True, Loial uses different songs to do differnt things. But for me that opens possibility that depending on need, there is a particular Song that does stuff. And if the need is great, like peace, or make things right, or heal every living being, there may be a Song for that.

 

Edit: And yes, without discovering the Singing talent, it's not possible to find the particular Song

[Barid Bel Medar]

That may indeed be possible, however, that is not what others have been posting. From what I gather, people are suggesting that the song is exactly that "A Song" that will heal everything, but the point is that there are many songs that do similar/same/different things, and that it is the "Singing" that is the real key.

 

Thats what this post is about, the actual presence of "a Song" is not the point, it is the skill of Singing that the Tinkers are looking for.

 

In any case, Loial doesnt sing the same song every time he produces sung wood, its not a set thing, its the act of SINGING, the talent, whatever actual chord/rhythem or whatever you want that is not important, its the fact he has the talent to make sung wood from "SINGING"

 

So Singing and the Song are no where near the same theory, they are widely different.

 

I understand what you are saying.

 

But I also think there is a possibility of existence of one particular Song that may be very close to Heal everything. For example, consider tree-signing. True, Loial uses different songs to do differnt things. But for me that opens possibility that depending on need, there is a particular Song that does stuff. And if the need is great, like peace, or make things right, or heal every living being, there may be a Song for that.

 

Edit: And yes, without discovering the Singing talent, it's not possible to find the particular Song

 

Well I cant really argue with taht, even though I think that a particular song isnt needed, but anyway, it is as good a theory as any. I suppose we will find out later, and see who is right.

 

If you are, then thats fair enough  ;D