Demystifying the Song

[metaphor]

Maybe the talent of seed singing is(was) more common among the aiel than among the other people.

 

 

 

In the second age, with all their technological advancements they used seed singing to grow crops, even during wartime. This leads me to think that it's not only poetic, but also a very efficient method.

Given the recent problems with food in randland rediscovering that method might be essential to surviving the Last Battle.

Certainly rand knows of seed singing, and most likely so do most, if not all, of the clan chiefs  and wise ones.

The problem might be how to discover those with the Talent, but there are various possibilities:

Rand might know from the memories of Lews Therin. One of the wise ones or clan chiefs might know from their visit in the columns. They  go with a trial and error method, getting a bunch of people to sing to plants along with Ogier till something happens. Although this last method might take up years to give results  ;D

Maybe the system for discovering if somoene has the Voice is very similar in humans and Ogiers.

 

 

As for actually getting them to sing, there are the gai'shain for this. 

[Luckers]

Does the 'remnant of a remnant' prophecy only refers to Aiel, or do Tinkers fall into it too?

 

They do not. The Remnant of the remnant is out of 'those who call themselves Aiel', which the Tinkers do not.

[reson8]

Does the 'remnant of a remnant' prophecy only refers to Aiel, or do Tinkers fall into it too?

 

They do not. The Remnant of the remnant is out of 'those who call themselves Aiel', which the Tinkers do not.

 

I'm of the personal opinion that the remnant of a remnant will be either the shaido or the brotherless. Not totally convinced of that, but it would make sense.

[Luckers]

It seems unlikely that it will be either. The prophecy states that Rand will be the one who saves the remnant of a remnant, and neither are likely to be saved by him. It is possible of course.

 

I am more of the opinion that this prophecy refers to social change. I will be posting a thread on this some time soon.

[Shard]

Does the 'remnant of a remnant' prophecy only refers to Aiel, or do Tinkers fall into it too?

 

They do not. The Remnant of the remnant is out of 'those who call themselves Aiel', which the Tinkers do not.

 

Even though technically they are more True Aiel then the actual Aiel?

 

I didn't think the Prophecy meant that Rand would save them only that a remenant of a remenant would be left, period. That once TG was done whatever Aiel were left was what remained whether their Shaido, Tinkers or Brotherless.

[FallingBullets]

The Remnant is probably any of them that were struck by the Bleakness, since all the others will be fighting/dying.

[ravenfier]

we can also assume that due to the unwillingness of the shido to accept the revalation that rand gave that the clan will die out within 3 generations- as per the saying of the AS at Rhuidean.

[Luckers]

Does the 'remnant of a remnant' prophecy only refers to Aiel, or do Tinkers fall into it too?

 

They do not. The Remnant of the remnant is out of 'those who call themselves Aiel', which the Tinkers do not.

 

Even though technically they are more True Aiel then the actual Aiel?

 

I didn't think the Prophecy meant that Rand would save them only that a remenant of a remenant would be left, period. That once TG was done whatever Aiel were left was what remained whether their Shaido, Tinkers or Brotherless.

 

Absolutely even though they are more True Aiel than actual Aiel. The phrase 'those who call themselves Aiel' directly underlines this point. It is the ones naming themselves Aiel that are the ones Rand will save a Remnant of.

 

 

 

 

[Allenbird]

I believe very strongly that lews therin knows the song otherwise foreshadowed in the prologue of The Eye of the World. With so much stuff being recalled by Lews Therin in Rand's head, I feel it is only a matter of time before Rand wil meet the Tinkers again, be asked if he knows the song, and Lew's Therin answers..."yes, I do know the song", and thus gives the Tinkers there part in the last battle.

 

Just my theory and what I believe to be a logical progression of events.

[Lacanos]

I believe very strongly that lews therin knows the song otherwise foreshadowed in the prologue of The Eye of the World. With so much stuff being recalled by Lews Therin in Rand's head, I feel it is only a matter of time before Rand wil meet the Tinkers again, be asked if he knows the song, and Lew's Therin answers..."yes, I do know the song", and thus gives the Tinkers there part in the last battle.

 

Just my theory and what I believe to be a logical progression of events.

I'm afraid you rather missed the point of the thread

[Allenbird]

hehe I know this thread was created to Demystify the whole point of the song. I wasn't trying t5o add any mystery or power to the song in itself, just that I think that "the song" could be a link between Ran and the Tinkers.

[Charlz Fel]

The point of the thread is that "the song" does not and never did exist as such; the myth of the song among the Tinkers is based on the stories of the seed singing that were passed down among the Aiel.

[CUBAREY]

The point of the thread is that "the song" does not and never did exist as such; the myth of the song among the Tinkers is based on the stories of the seed singing that were passed down among the Aiel.

 

Not exactly. THe Seed Song was indeed a song. Further, while The Age of Legends may come only once in a cycle of Time that does not mean that the tinkers finding the "Song" and beng able to use it to grow crops (likely to do with Perrin and not Rand by the way) would not lead to a "Golden Age" of Advancement in the 4th Age.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Perhaps it's just misconception of something similar, interpreted by people of this Age because it's been gone so long.

 

For example...Aes Sedai say that in the Age of Legends, the Aes Sedai could fly - and I think it's Myrelle that says that an Accepted was so convinced she knew the weave that she lept from the top of the Tower and died.  Current Aes Sedai are unable to figure out how to use a weave on ones' self in order to make them fly.  Apart from Rand's battle with Ishamael in the sky, it seems like it's impossible.  But Aes Sedai DID fly in the Age of Legends by way of vehicles that transported them to the floating dome and other places.  Because such technology isn't even being thought of at this point, the Aes Sedai interpret "flying" as human beings soaring through the air by way of some weave.  Could the AOL Aes Sedai fly?  Yes.  Did it look like the current Aes Sedai's understanding of "fly"?  No.

 

So then, current Tinkers are looking for a "Song" but perhaps they are not looking for the song in its proper context, which brings in Lucker's interpretation of the Song being a Talent-slash-gift similar to or actually Seed Singing.  Will they find the Song?  Sure!  If they begin to understand that it's not actually a written melody-harmony-music type song, but an ability that people have to focus the One Power in order that things might grow properly.

[coreybickle]

I think the seed singing songs will be found in the smiling old man ter'angreal that Aviendha activated. The one with all the fiction and non-fiction books in it. After all, why wouldn't there be a book written about seed singing in the AOL? Maybe we'll even be able to find out what the First covenant is all about. Supposing they get Mat or Birgitte to translate for them. Elayne doesn't seem smart enough to think of that on her own.

[Luckers]

So then, current Tinkers are looking for a "Song" but perhaps they are not looking for the song in its proper context, which brings in Lucker's interpretation of the Song being a Talent-slash-gift similar to or actually Seed Singing.  Will they find the Song?  Sure!  If they begin to understand that it's not actually a written melody-harmony-music type song, but an ability that people have to focus the One Power in order that things might grow properly.

 

That is not my 'interpretation' of the Song. The Song does not exist as an actual thing. It is a symbol, a belief system the tuatha'an developed around their desire to return to the peace they knew in the Age of Legends. Outside their imaginations it is not real. The Singing is a different thing entirely, and if they do discover it they will not be happy.

[farthammer]

They still have the song it's just that they are currently using it to fix frying pans and kitchen silverware.

[CUBAREY]

The Singing is a different thing entirely, and if they do discover it they will not be happy.

 

That of course would depend on many things. If the 4rth Age becomes a ne "Golden Age" were relative peace reigns and they become an integral part of society I would think tht they would be content. The "Song" did exist as an actual thing in th past, and could again be a "real" thing. That the Tinkers have built a mythalogy around it does not mean that it did no exist, and that it existed ina very real way similar to the myth.

[Luckers]

That of course would depend on many things. If the 4rth Age becomes a ne "Golden Age" were relative peace reigns and they become an integral part of society I would think tht they would be content. The "Song" did exist as an actual thing in th past, and could again be a "real" thing. That the Tinkers have built a mythalogy around it does not mean that it did no exist, and that it existed ina very real way similar to the myth.

 

Again, no, a song which magically restores the world to a previous age has never, and does not currently exist. The Singing is a different thing entirely from the Song.

[Durinax]

That of course would depend on many things. If the 4rth Age becomes a ne "Golden Age" were relative peace reigns and they become an integral part of society I would think tht they would be content. The "Song" did exist as an actual thing in th past, and could again be a "real" thing. That the Tinkers have built a mythalogy around it does not mean that it did no exist, and that it existed ina very real way similar to the myth.

 

Again, no, a song which magically restores the world to a previous age has never, and does not currently exist. The Singing is a different thing entirely from the Song.

do they wish to find the song to return the world to the AoL or do they want to find it to be like the AoL

 

I think the second one, when they can finally stop their wandering, and rejoin the normal society in ways that are similar to the AoL

[Pandemonium]

I disagree with this theory.

 

The song is a real thing, as evidenced when Rand went on his journey in Rhuidean.  The Nym, Ogier, and Dashain Aiel all participated in the song.  Also, I don't think Luckers has any conclusive evidence that the singing the song is related to the One Power.  The song could be related to the One Power, but we do not have any confirmation of that yet (as far as I know).  Just because it is called a 'Talent' does not mean it necessarily has to do with the One Power.  As we have seen, the Ogier and the Green Man did not appear to be channeling the One Power.

 

It would be a great question to ask Harriet/Brandon/Mariah at the next available opportunity. 

 

I also disagree that the Tinkers would be dissatisfied if they rediscovered how to grow crops with the song or use the song for other purposes.  Even though this wouldn't bring them back to the idyllic days of the AoL, it would give them a renewed purpose.  The song would also give the Tinkers a very special purpose before the Last Battle in spreading their message of peace.  Just think back to how effective some of the Dashain Aiel were at delaying an insane male Aes Sedai from destroying a city in the AoL just by singing. 

 

If anything, this current time period in WoT has shown us how fast certain talents can be resurrected.  Certain talented individuals with the right affinity are able to do things that were impossible even in the AoL.  An example is Nynaeve and healing stilling.  Aviendha has recently learned how to identify the function of various ter'angreal.  I think it is quite possible that the Tinkers, by necessity, relearn part of the song very quickly.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Tinkers relearned part of the song and adapted it ways that were unknown in the AoL. I think the Tinkers have a major role left to play before the Last Battle-- and it possibly has something to do with the song.

 

I do not think that the Tinkers would be disappointed in finding a clue to their past, and in finding a way to reseal the Dark One and help bring about a new age of peace.  There have been several hints that the Tinkers have an important role left to play.  Rand visiting the Tinkers in TGS is just one recent example. 

 

I wouldn't even be surprised if the hidden clues in books 4-6 had something to do with the Tinkers.  This is all speculation, but I wanted to present an alternate viewpoint to that of Luckers.

[Lacanos]

I disagree with this theory.

 

The song is a real thing, as evidenced when Rand went on his journey in Rhuidean.  The Nym, Ogier, and Dashain Aiel all participated in the song.  Also, I don't think Luckers has any conclusive evidence that the singing the song is related to the One Power.  The song could be related to the One Power, but we do not have any confirmation of that yet (as far as I know).  Just because it is called a 'Talent' does not mean it necessarily has to do with the One Power.  As we have seen, the Ogier and the Green Man did not appear to be channeling the One Power.

 

It would be a great question to ask Harriet/Brandon/Mariah at the next available opportunity. 

 

I also disagree that the Tinkers would be dissatisfied if they rediscovered how to grow crops with the song or use the song for other purposes.  Even though this wouldn't bring them back to the idyllic days of the AoL, it would give them a renewed purpose.  The song would also give the Tinkers a very special purpose before the Last Battle in spreading their message of peace.  Just think back to how effective some of the Dashain Aiel were at delaying an insane male Aes Sedai from destroying a city in the AoL just by singing. 

 

If anything, this current time period in WoT has shown us how fast certain talents can be resurrected.  Certain talented individuals with the right affinity are able to do things that were impossible even in the AoL.  An example is Nynaeve and healing stilling.  Aviendha has recently learned how to identify the function of various ter'angreal.  I think it is quite possible that the Tinkers, by necessity, relearn part of the song very quickly.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Tinkers relearned part of the song and adapted it ways that were unknown in the AoL. I think the Tinkers have a major role left to play before the Last Battle-- and it possibly has something to do with the song.

 

I do not think that the Tinkers would be disappointed in finding a clue to their past, and in finding a way to reseal the Dark One and help bring about a new age of peace.  There have been several hints that the Tinkers have an important role left to play.  Rand visiting the Tinkers in TGS is just one recent example. 

 

I wouldn't even be surprised if the hidden clues in books 4-6 had something to do with the Tinkers.  This is all speculation, but I wanted to present an alternate viewpoint to that of Luckers.

 

Try READING the theory.

Luckers isn't saying that the seedsong didn't exist. What he's saying is that wasn't what the Tinkers left to look for, as I understand - that scene you mention has them searching for the "old songs". These "old songs" have developed into a myth over time.

[Pandemonium]

I disagree with this theory.

 

The song is a real thing, as evidenced when Rand went on his journey in Rhuidean.  The Nym, Ogier, and Dashain Aiel all participated in the song.  Also, I don't think Luckers has any conclusive evidence that the singing the song is related to the One Power.  The song could be related to the One Power, but we do not have any confirmation of that yet (as far as I know).  Just because it is called a 'Talent' does not mean it necessarily has to do with the One Power.  As we have seen, the Ogier and the Green Man did not appear to be channeling the One Power.

 

It would be a great question to ask Harriet/Brandon/Mariah at the next available opportunity. 

 

I also disagree that the Tinkers would be dissatisfied if they rediscovered how to grow crops with the song or use the song for other purposes.  Even though this wouldn't bring them back to the idyllic days of the AoL, it would give them a renewed purpose.  The song would also give the Tinkers a very special purpose before the Last Battle in spreading their message of peace.  Just think back to how effective some of the Dashain Aiel were at delaying an insane male Aes Sedai from destroying a city in the AoL just by singing. 

 

If anything, this current time period in WoT has shown us how fast certain talents can be resurrected.  Certain talented individuals with the right affinity are able to do things that were impossible even in the AoL.  An example is Nynaeve and healing stilling.  Aviendha has recently learned how to identify the function of various ter'angreal.  I think it is quite possible that the Tinkers, by necessity, relearn part of the song very quickly.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Tinkers relearned part of the song and adapted it ways that were unknown in the AoL. I think the Tinkers have a major role left to play before the Last Battle-- and it possibly has something to do with the song.

 

I do not think that the Tinkers would be disappointed in finding a clue to their past, and in finding a way to reseal the Dark One and help bring about a new age of peace.  There have been several hints that the Tinkers have an important role left to play.  Rand visiting the Tinkers in TGS is just one recent example. 

 

I wouldn't even be surprised if the hidden clues in books 4-6 had something to do with the Tinkers.  This is all speculation, but I wanted to present an alternate viewpoint to that of Luckers.

 

Try READING the theory.

Luckers isn't saying that the seedsong didn't exist. What he's saying is that wasn't what the Tinkers left to look for, as I understand - that scene you mention has them searching for the "old songs". These "old songs" have developed into a myth over time.

Maybe I didn't elaborate my points well enough.  I talked a lot more than just about the seedsong existing or not.

 

I spend a lot of time responding to 2 of Luckers ideas:

 

1.  That the seedsong that the Daishain Aiel used is related to the One Power (it could be, but I haven't seen any confirmation of it yet)

 

2.  This idea of Luckers:  "That is not my 'interpretation' of the Song. The Song does not exist as an actual thing. It is a symbol, a belief system the tuatha'an developed around their desire to return to the peace they knew in the Age of Legends. Outside their imaginations it is not real. The Singing is a different thing entirely, and if they do discover it they will not be happy."

 

What I was trying to say in my reply is that the Tinkers obviously have developed a mythology around seed-singing and the utopia of the AoL.  They call this the 'Song' and they have developed a lot of false misconceptions around what the 'Song' actually is.  However, I think they discover part of this seed-song (and I think it is highly likely that they will) that will not be unhappy like Luckers suggests.

 

The Tinkers may be initially disappointed that the 'Song' is the perfect peace that they thought it would be.  However, they will soon realize the power in 'singing' and that this power will help them reform the world to a world of peace.  I think the Tinkers will have a much better sense of mission, purpose, and identity once they discover what the 'song' really is. 

 

It could be said that Tinkers 'sinned' as a culture by leaving their true mission set by the Aes Sedai and resorting to a new mission of finding the 'Song.'  Likewise, the Aiel 'sinned' as a culture by abandoning the Way of the Leaf.  The Aiel have already dealt with the ramifications of learning that they were once part of the Way of the Leaf.  The Tinkers may also have to deal with some upheaval once they learned that that their 'song' is based around false mythology (just as Luckers outlined).  However, I think the Tinkers stayed more true to their cultural identity and the 'Way of the Leaf' than the Aiel and they will not have to deal with nearly the same amount of upheaval.  I think the Tinkers will be able to band together as a cohesive unit much better than the Aiel did when they learned the truth of who they really were.  It should be interesting to see how this plot progresses.

 

It will be interesting to see if their is ever a meeting between the Tinkers and the Aiel.  I really think the Tinkers should have a chance to visit Rhuidean and relearn the truth of their past.  The Aiel Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs have known for 3,000 years.  The Tinkers never had this advantage. 

[Luckers]

1.  That the seedsong that the Daishain Aiel used is related to the One Power (it could be, but I haven't seen any confirmation of it yet)

 

Lacanos is correct. You did not read the theory. From the first post...

 

Farmland produced optimum yield through use of the One Power. In a method called "seed singing," Ogier (a separate race of beings gifted with the ability to aid and enhance growing things), Nym, and Da'shain Aiel worked as a team, focusing the One Power to insure perfect growth for every field they "sang."

 

[The Guide; 3, The Age of Legends]

 

The rest, your ideas about the Tinkers reaction to the Seed Singing is fine. On that we are both only offering our opinions. I would however re-direct you to the first post once more in reguards to your claims that in your opinion it is very likely that the Tinkers will rediscover the Singing. It is far from impossible of course, but there are numerous problems which I'm not sure you've considered. Of course I may be misreading your certainty.

[Lacanos]

I still don't buy that they're searching for the seed song. They may find it, but I doubt it. However, that's not, IMO, what the break-off faction was talking about when the tinkers left the Aiel. It doesn't seem to fit.