To make no weapon for one man to kill another...

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Light, but I feel like an idiot...  Whenever I heard that oath "to make no weapon for one man to kill another", I always thought of Rand's shiny swords, but that never made sense, why add a third oath to stop making swords no one needs to sharpen?  pointless...  I never gave it much thought untill last night, and now I finally get it...  The only thing that makes sense is that Shocklances (not to mention these other weapons that can reach miles...) are made, somehow, using the One Power.  An age that was, untill only a "little" bit ago a stranger to war and strife must have been horrified by the battles and death that raged once the DO broke loose, and so, when the dust settled, they chose to never again make such weapons to cause so widespread death and destruction.  And of course, later, when they founded the White Tower and swore the oaths, they engraved that fervent wish for the end of large scale killing into their very bones...

 

Anyway, can't believe I never stood back and looked at it like that before...  Anyone have a quote from Jordan or some such? 

[DemandredFO]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

[farthammer]

Could've easily just been some form of political concession when the AS reformed after the breaking.  It sounds like something the Aiel would come up with anyway.

[Druugan]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

 

What kind of weapon could they make that only a woman could use, but not a man? I guess they should also be able to make weapons specifically suited for killing Shadowspawn. Again though, how do you make a weapon for killing Shadowspawn that could not also be used to kill men? Or what if it was a weapon for one man to just rough up or maim another? Realistically, if you really wanted to, you could use just about anything as a weapon to kill someone by bashing them, smothering them, choking them, etc.; so it seems that they can't make any object at all. Perhaps that's why they haven't been able to make *angreal all this time. I guess we'll find out when Elayne tries to make a new ter'angreal after she takes the oaths; or Egwene makes something out of cuendillar.

 

Frankly, I think it's even worse if intent is the key. I hereby intend this super rod of instant death to only be used in ceremonies or be displayed on a mantel. If someone else distributes it to the army after the fact that's okay though, right? After-all, it wasn't my intent for it to actually be used as a weapon. You may say, "Druugan, surely you can't really claim that your 'super rod of instant death' serves any other purpose, your example is just too extreme."

 

At first glance it may seem that way, but even modern military forces in the real world have swords, guns, cannons, jet fighters, etc., that are only used in ceremonies. I've fired plenty of rifles while conducted military funeral honors. We only loaded them with blanks, and they never saw combat; however, you could load actual bullets in them and use them to kill, and even 'blanks' can kill at close enough range and placed just right.

 

Keep in mind, Robert Jordan served in the military as well; he must have considered this.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Ah, just found this while browsing the (rather outdated now...) MAFO list in tGS spoiler board.  I don't exactly know if I'm allowed to post it here, but I don't see any possible spoilers in it, and it is very relevent to this thread.  So if it is deemed not to be allowed, I will accept penelization and retract it, but here it is...

 

*possible (not likely) spoilers*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MAFO #4 - Was Ishamael partially, or was he responsible for the initiation of the three oaths. Was he a part of what brought them about?

 

Maria's Answer #4 - No.  What is now the second oath (To make no weapon with which one man may kill another) was the first one that the Aes Sedai adopted. “It grew from an impulse within the Aes Sedai themselves coming from tales passed down regarding the War of the Shadow. The other two oaths certainly grew out of the suspicion of ordinary people towards these Aes Sedai.” (That’s a quote from the notes, btw).  Sometimes things happen without an agent of the Dark One’s involvement, and sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

 

[mb]

What kind of weapon could they make that only a woman could use, but not a man?

A terangreal that can only be activated with saidar.

 

Elayne was among the first to rediscover how to make them; 3 others in the rebel camp also have the Talent.

And the Seanchan have at least one that has the Talent (there was 1 male adam, now at least 6).

 

[Caedn of the Taardad]

What kind of weapon could they make that only a woman could use, but not a man?

A terangreal that can only be activated with saidar.

 

Elayne was among the first to rediscover how to make them; 3 others in the rebel camp also have the Talent.

And the Seanchan have at least one that has the Talent (there was 1 male adam, now at least 6).

 

 

First off:  too true, too true...

 

Second off:  more then one for sure, here's the quote:'...Perhaps you will be

one of those who has the ability to make a’dam. If so, you will be pampered, you may rest assured."' -The Great Hunt, Damane

 

 

[Blackhoof]

Ways to circumvent the oath.

 

-make a saidar-only activated weapon

-Make a weapon that is only usable against women

-Make a weapon only shadowspawn can use

-make a weapon only a small girl/boy can use, neither are technically men

-make a weapon only usable against shadowspawn, like a gateway shooter, that doesn't have cutting edges. shadowspawn go through and die, ordinary people are unaffected.

-Make a automatic nail-breaker, used against men, they dont care, use against women, they have apoplexy.

 

 

See, is easy to evade this oath.

[ravenfier]

-Make a automatic nail-breaker, used against men, they dont care, use against women, they have apoplexy.

 

not true oh snap i just broke one oh noes the world is ending, I.... Broke.... A..... Nail.... dies. lol, to funny.

[Druugan]

What kind of weapon could they make that only a woman could use, but not a man?

A terangreal that can only be activated with saidar.

 

Elayne was among the first to rediscover how to make them; 3 others in the rebel camp also have the Talent.

And the Seanchan have at least one that has the Talent (there was 1 male adam, now at least 6).

 

 

I actually addressed the point of making *angreal or anything else with the power with my caveat that any object could be used by a man to kill another man, regardless of the actual purpose of the item. I, as a man, could pick up the oath rod and use it like a club to kill another man.

 

We can take it a step further though by bringing in the third oath.

 

"Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme defense of her life, the life of her Warder or another Aes Sedai." or "Never to use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends or Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending your own life, that of your Warder, or that of another sister." depending on the source.

 

Therefore, if the ter'angreal weapon that the Aes Sedai made required activation with saidar; it seems that the One Power is being as a weapon. Or is it? I am of the opinion that this might be a loophole that would allow them to do just that.

 

I also have another point to add to my original argument about if an objects intended purpose has precedence over the idea that someone could use the item as an improvised item. The second oath would not preclude an Aes Sedai from making a weapon that is designed to kill any woman who can saidar. Why would they make such a weapon? To use against the Seanchan of course.  Additionally, it could even be designed so that a man could use it, since it can't be used to kill another man.

[Dagon Thyne]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

 

The threes oaths are all flawed....

For one, an Aes Sedai can kill with the power as long as SHE feels her life is theatened...if you look at a very paranoid Aes Sedai the wrong way...you may get a fireball in your ass.  

 

Two, they can make weapons as long as THEY believe it can't be used to kill.  If they intend it only to be used to incapacitate..ythey can make it.

 

Three, they can lie all they want..as long as THEY think it's true.

[bubbified]

Also, the oath doesn't say that they cant make anything that COULD be used as a weapon.  That means they couldn't make a super death beam rod(purely ceremonial, really) if they knew any person at all considered for any man at all to use it as a weapon against any other man.  If it was just an object that could be used for a weapon, but the AS didnt personally believe it would ever be used as a weapon, then it could be made.  Like if an AS made a frying pan, sure someone somewhere has used a frying pan as a weapon to kill with at some point, but really, it doesnt happen much, usually if its being used as a weapon, its being used in defense when the user has nothing else to hand.  I think any AS that thinks about it too much might end up making herself unable to make it though...

 

Also, it seems to me that the oaths are bypassed so much based solely on what the AS in question believes, that an AS can break an oath just because they didn't realize they were breaking an oath.  Seems like any truly oblivious AS out there could break oaths all the time.

[Mr Ares]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

The threes oaths are all flawed....

For one, an Aes Sedai can kill with the power as long as SHE feels her life is theatened...if you look at a very paranoid Aes Sedai the wrong way...you may get a fireball in your ass.  

 

Two, they can make weapons as long as THEY believe it can't be used to kill.  If they intend it only to be used to incapacitate..ythey can make it.

 

Three, they can lie all they want..as long as THEY think it's true.

If you believe it to be true, then it isn't a lie. Truly, the Oaths are flawed, but not for the reason you suggest - they are flawed because they give the impression the AS need to be restrained. If you need to reassure people that you won't lie, how honest can you really be? If you need to reassure people that you won't go around killing people, doesn't that sort of give the impression you're really rather violent? You shouldn't need to go around saying that you can't lie, make weapons or kill people with the Power in order to get people to trust you.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

A true headache there, Egwene had a similar thought I believe, let me pull up a quote...  Rather long, sorry, but it holds the entire arguement:

 

"Better for us if they believed," she muttered. "I wish there was something forthem to

believe. If I do nothing else, Siuan, I hope at least I can free us from the Three Oaths."

"No!" Siuan barked. She sounded scandalized. "Even trying could be disastrous, and if

you succeeded... The Light help us, if you succeeded, you would destroy the White

Tower."

"What are you talking about? I try to follow the Oaths, Siuan, since we’re stuck with

them – for now – but the Oaths won’t help us against the Seanchan. If sisters have to be

in danger of their lives before they can fight back, it’s only a matter of time before we are

all dead or collared." For a moment she could feel the a’damaround her throat again,

turning her into a dog on a leash. A well-trained and obedient dog. She was glad of the

darkness, now, hiding her trembles. Shadows obscured Siuan’s face, save for a

soundlessly working jaw.

"Don’t you look at me like that, Siuan." It was easier to be angry than afraid, easy to

mask fear in anger. She would never be collared like that again! "You’ve taken every

advantage since you were freed from the Oaths. If you hadn’t lied in your teeth, we’d all

be in Salidar, without an army, sitting on our hands and waiting for a miracle. Well, you

would be. They’d never have summoned me to be Amyrlin without your lie about Logain

and the Reds. Elaida would reign supreme, and in a year, nobody would remember how

she usurped the Amyrlin Seat. She’ddestroy the Tower, for sure. You know she’d

mishandle everything about Rand. I would not be surprised if she had tried to kidnap him

by now, except that she’s concerned with us. Well, maybe not kidnap, but she’d have

done something. Likely, Aes Sedai would be fighting Asha’man today, and never mind

Tarmon Gai’don waiting over the horizon."

"I have lied when it seemed necessary," Siuan breathed. "When it seemed expedient."

Her shoulders hunched, and she sounded as though she were confessing crimes she did

not want to admit to herself. "Sometimes I think it’s become too easy for me to decide

that it’s necessary and expedient. I’ve lied to almost everyone. Except you. But don’t

think it hasn’t occurred to me. To nudge you toward a decision, or away from one. It

wasn’t wanting to keep your trust that stopped me." Siuan’s hand stretched out in the

dark, pleading. "The Light knows what your trust and friendship mean to me, but it

wasn’t that. It wasn’t knowing that you’d have the hide off me in strips, or send me away,

if you found out. I realized that I had to hold on to the Oaths with somebody, or I’d lose

myself completely. So I don’t lie to you, or to Gareth Bryne, whatever it costs. And as

soon I can, Mother, I will swear the Three Oaths on the Oath Rod again."

"Why?" Egwene asked quietly. Siuan had considered lying to her? She wouldhave had

her hide for that. But her anger was gone. "I don’t condone lying, Siuan. Not normally.

It’s just that sometimes, it really is necessary." Her time with the Aiel flashed through her

mind. "So long as you’re willing to pay for it, anyway. I’ve seen sisters take on penance

for smaller things. You are one of the first of a new sort of Aes Sedai, Siuan, free and

unbound. I believe you when you say you won’t lie to me." Or to Lord Bryne? Odd, that.

"Why give up your freedom?"

"Give up?" Siuan laughed. "I’ll be giving up nothing." Her back straightened, and her

voice began to gain strength, and then passion. "The Oaths are what make us more than

simply a group of women meddling in the affairs of the world. Or seven groups. Or fifty.

The Oaths hold us together, a stated set of beliefs that bind us all, a single thread running

through every sister, living or dead, back to the first to lay her hands on the Oath Rod.

Theyare what make us Aes Sedai, not saidar. Any wilder can channel. Men may look at

what we say from six sides, but when a sister says, ‘This is so,’ they knowit’s true, and

they trust. Because of the Oaths. Because of the Oaths, no queen fears that sisters will lay

waste to her cities. The worst villain knows he’s safe in his life with a sister unless he

tries to harm her. Oh, the Whitecloaks call them lies, and some people have strange ideas

about what the Oaths entail, but there are very few places an Aes Sedai cannot go, and be

listened to, because of the Oaths. The Three Oaths are what it is to be Aes Sedai, the

heartof being Aes Sedai. Throw that on the rubbish heap, and we’ll be sand washing

away in the tide. Give up? I will be gaining." -Path of Daggers, Chapter 15: Stronger than written law

[Mr Ares]

Indeed, and it is a shame Egwene later changes her mind to agree with Siuan. There were AS before the Three Oaths, so that is only the core of their identity because they changed their identity to make it so. As it is, if an AS says something, it is not taken on trust, it is scanned to see how the AS is deceiving you. Their assumptions is that just because they can say anything provided it's true, they have carte blanche to do so. They can, therefore they should. The Wise Ones and Windfinders are a trusted part of their respective societies without the Oaths. A Roofmistress doesn't worry that a Wise One will lay waste to her Hold, nor a Sailmistress that a Windfinder will sink her ship. As for Siuan's claim that the worst villain is safe in the company of an AS provided he doesn't try to harm her, this is false. Just because she cannot kill him with the Power, doesn't mean she can't just kill him. Like saying "I promise not to kill you with my sword", while saying nothing about the knife at your belt. They are not trusted, not any more than they have to be. A sad state of affairs, but one they have brought on themselves.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

It all comes down to honor in the end, thus why I love the Aiel most...  Ji'e'toh is the best way to govern the self.  At least the oaths are better then the A'dam for "controling" the channellers...

[Blackhoof]

I fnd Ji'e'toh silly, as the Aiel mentality that "if you dont have honour, you have nothing". Sure honour is all well and good, but living your life by it is silly.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

I fnd Ji'e'toh silly, as the Aiel mentality that "if you dont have honour, you have nothing". Sure honour is all well and good, but living your life by it is silly.

 

True, and I agree with you on that point, but I yet retain more admiration for the Aiel as a culture then any but the Borderlanders, and even above them in some ways.  But that's just my little eccentricity talking again... Still wonder if we'll ever see an Aiel Asha'man...

[bubbified]

Ya the AS who restarted the white tower were mostly lame excuses for human beings.  Thats why it was necessary to make the 3 oaths.  It would've been better to just go about making the world around themselves better than trying to run everything and be absolute rulers.  The other societies channelers just tried to make things better, and thats what happened, things got better.  Now they're all respected.  AS tried to rule everything, and now no one trusts them to do anything but attempt to lie to you or hurt you in some fashion.  The same happened in Seanchan, only the seanchan AS fought so hard that when they betrayed themselves, everyone jumped on the opportunity to collar them all and never looked back.

[nolirion]

i might be mistaken but the three oat was made in the third age but after spécific event like the siege of Tar Valon by Artur Paendrag Tanreall . In fact I do remember the oat road to be discover after the trolloc war or the war of the hundred year .

I find it quiet laughtable the action of most actual aes sedai mostly helping ishamael  a lot like the Seanchan's Karaethon Cycle .

 

[mb]

Seanchan's prophecy is Essanik Cycle, not Karaethon.

 

From checking Encyclopaedia and Ideal Seek, the books do not tell when the Oath Rod was discovered.

 

[Dagon Thyne]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

The threes oaths are all flawed....

For one, an Aes Sedai can kill with the power as long as SHE feels her life is theatened...if you look at a very paranoid Aes Sedai the wrong way...you may get a fireball in your ass.  

 

Two, they can make weapons as long as THEY believe it can't be used to kill.  If they intend it only to be used to incapacitate..ythey can make it.

 

Three, they can lie all they want..as long as THEY think it's true.

If you believe it to be true, then it isn't a lie. Truly, the Oaths are flawed, but not for the reason you suggest - they are flawed because they give the impression the AS need to be restrained. If you need to reassure people that you won't lie, how honest can you really be? If you need to reassure people that you won't go around killing people, doesn't that sort of give the impression you're really rather violent? You shouldn't need to go around saying that you can't lie, make weapons or kill people with the Power in order to get people to trust you.

 

 

Anyone with as much power as Aes Sedai have need to be restrained.  PPower corrupts even the noblest of intentions.  There must always be some type of balance.  People mistrust anyone with that much power and the three oaths are a way to let the Aes Sedai regain trust.  After the breaking, people beleived as the Children of the Light do, that all Aes Sedai helped in the breaking and the Aes Sedai needed a way to help get the people to trust them again.

[Mr Ares]

Now that you brought your thought up, something occured to me.  The oath is flawed, I don't have a book to check but I believe you quoted it correctly.  So my question is what about women, It says no man to kill another, not no one or neither man nor woman.

The threes oaths are all flawed....

For one, an Aes Sedai can kill with the power as long as SHE feels her life is theatened...if you look at a very paranoid Aes Sedai the wrong way...you may get a fireball in your ass.  

 

Two, they can make weapons as long as THEY believe it can't be used to kill.  If they intend it only to be used to incapacitate..ythey can make it.

 

Three, they can lie all they want..as long as THEY think it's true.

If you believe it to be true, then it isn't a lie. Truly, the Oaths are flawed, but not for the reason you suggest - they are flawed because they give the impression the AS need to be restrained. If you need to reassure people that you won't lie, how honest can you really be? If you need to reassure people that you won't go around killing people, doesn't that sort of give the impression you're really rather violent? You shouldn't need to go around saying that you can't lie, make weapons or kill people with the Power in order to get people to trust you.

Anyone with as much power as Aes Sedai have need to be restrained. Power corrupts even the noblest of intentions.  There must always be some type of balance.  People mistrust anyone with that much power and the three oaths are a way to let the Aes Sedai regain trust.  After the breaking, people beleived as the Children of the Light do, that all Aes Sedai helped in the breaking and the Aes Sedai needed a way to help get the people to trust them again.

And to that end the Oaths are a failure - people do not trust AS. If one says x, people instantly start trying to wonder how she is trying to pull the wool over their eyes. "The truth you hear isn't the truth you think you hear." The Wise Ones, the Windfinders, the Kin, all manage without the Oaths. The Wise Ones in particular are powerful members of their society, respected, unfettered by oaths but still trusted by their people. Also, the Oaths were not introduced for a long time after the Breaking.

[bubbified]

Yes, it was the fact that AS connected to the white tower were so vile that they needed the oaths.  It had shown over a period of time AFTER the breaking that they werent the same 'servents of all' that they were in the age of legends.  They were less vile than the seanchan AS, who needed to be leashed.  The kin/wise ones/windfinders were the opposite of vile, and as Mr ares said, were then and now, respected.

[Dagon Thyne]

Yes, it was the fact that AS connected to the white tower were so vile that they needed the oaths.  It had shown over a period of time AFTER the breaking that they werent the same 'servents of all' that they were in the age of legends.  They were less vile than the seanchan AS, who needed to be leashed.  The kin/wise ones/windfinders were the opposite of vile, and as Mr ares said, were then and now, respected.

 

 

THe Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends were not a political group.  They were a guild of sorts called the Hall of Servants.  The War of Power is what drove them to become what they are in the third age.  In a way, defeating evil, corrupted their ways so that people would not trust them fully ever again.