A little Taim theory

[Mr Ares]

Very generous of you to forgive us for your unfounded accusation of RJ being a liar.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think that the many, many, many...

 

...many, many, many 'coincidences' that link Taim and Demandred, causing not just a few people to theorize the connection but rather MOST people to simply assume it as fact would be strong enough evidence. Strong enough for me, at least, and I make the point that this is my opinion and my disappointment.

 

But I will not insult RJ by suggesting he was ignorant of such obvious and repetitive instances of similarity, across a broad spectrum of physical, emotional, chronological and circumstantual traits. I can't tell you why he would make the change, nor could I guess as to why he downplayed the connection that was so obviously there if not to maintain the integrity of the current story... but I feel both comfortable and disappointed with my conclusion.

 

Ya, the coincidences were on purpose.  He was putting the Taim is Demandred thing into the storyline as a false flag to draw attention away from Dashiva being Aginor.  When it got to the end of Winter's Heart and he said that Dashiva was Aginor, he let the reader know that they were different people by having the DF Ashamen get orders from both of them which are obviously unaware of the others and having Deamndred not recognize an Asha'man that Taim knew quite well.

 

He never changed the story, he was just utting some false leads into it along the way for a very specific reason.

[farthammer]

Wouldn't Taim have been around in the world too long to be an escaped Forsaken?

[Yizun]

Wouldn't Taim have been around in the world too long to be an escaped Forsaken?

 

Yes but it could be one of the Forsaken using the Mask of Mirrors hence disguising himself. He could also invert the weaves so even Rand or anyone else couldnt detect it. It could also be the reason why Davrem Bashere didnt completely recognize him when he showed up in Andor. It may be that he didnt get the illusion quite right

[farthammer]

Mayhap lad mayhap.  Haha just joking, but anyway if you're a fugitive that can channel and pretty much everyone wants to exterminate you finding a way to change your appearance is probably a really important thing to go do.  So I don't think that hypothetical says one thing or another regarding Demandred and Taim.

[Mr Ares]

I think that the many, many, many...

 

...many, many, many 'coincidences' that link Taim and Demandred, causing not just a few people to theorize the connection but rather MOST people to simply assume it as fact would be strong enough evidence. Strong enough for me, at least, and I make the point that this is my opinion and my disappointment.

 

But I will not insult RJ by suggesting he was ignorant of such obvious and repetitive instances of similarity, across a broad spectrum of physical, emotional, chronological and circumstantual traits. I can't tell you why he would make the change, nor could I guess as to why he downplayed the connection that was so obviously there if not to maintain the integrity of the current story... but I feel both comfortable and disappointed with my conclusion.

Ya, the coincidences were on purpose.

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

Jordan: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

http://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_827ctcr5pgg&revision=_latest

Why would he be surprised if he put it in there to lead us astray? People just saw some similarities and ran with them in a direction RJ never intended. Now some of those people can't deal with the simple fact of them being wrong and insist that RJ changed the story just to spite them. Sure, of course he did.

[Tom Sawyer]

Ya, the coincidences were on purpose.

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

Jordan: I was surprised...but I wasn't going to disabuse you of it for a while. I like to watch you squirm.

http://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_827ctcr5pgg&revision=_latest

Why would he be surprised if he put it in there to lead us astray? People just saw some similarities and ran with them in a direction RJ never intended. Now some of those people can't deal with the simple fact of them being wrong and insist that RJ changed the story just to spite them. Sure, of course he did.

 

Well then, I'm going to have to go ahead and not believe him either.  The associations were just too blatant for me to buy them being a coincidence.  From things like their facial features like the nose being the same (suggesting a subtle use of illusion), to Taim's use of the Forsaken's "so-called Aes Sedai" term and then worriedly looking at Rand to see if he'd noticed, to Lews Therin freaking out about Demandred when Taim came in, to Bashere's not quite recognizing him, to Taim doing a lot of stuff just before Demandred asks the DO if he'd done well, etc.  Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head from the book where Taim and Demandred were first introduced and no speculation about Taimandred had occurred anywhere.

 

Now, it might be that that was all just coincidental and not intentional, but that stretches credulity a bit too far, IMHO.

[Mr Ares]

Most of that doesn't imply any Demandred/Taim link. Similarity in appearance, and not smiling. However, "so-called Aiel" doesn't link to Demandred, nor does LTT ranting as he makes the same comments about other Chosen, including Sammael. Nor does looking not quite like Taim - especially as RJ explained that was to do with the rigours of his journey (as much could be guessed anyway). As for Taim doing a lot of stuff, that would be what? Building Rand an army? Saving Rand? Thwarting a Shadow-backed plan to kidnap Rand? There are certainly oddities about Taim, and RJ probably did want us to pick up on them, but where are these extensive similarities to Demandred? Sure, there was enough to make it plausible, but not so many that it couldn't just be coincidence. And I want links to Demandred specifically, beyond big nose and doesn't smile. Because Faile has almost as much to support her being Demandred... Failandred, you read it here first.

 

Also, why would RJ lie? He has admitted in the past that he has changed his plans for the series, such as originally planning three books, but then having to expand as it became clear he had too much to fit in just three volumes, or Rand originally being an older character, like Tam. So if he did have a plan for Taimandred and later decided it was unworkable, why not just say? He has foreshadowed stuff that we guessed (Semi being Anath springs to mind), so why change this one specific thing because we guessed when he hasn't done so elsewhere? What about the disruptions to his plans (because RJ did plan the story, not just make it up as he went along) that would be caused by splitting one character into two? A lot of work required to make the change, a lot of planning wasted, because of some fit of pique? It makes absolutely no sense. What does RJ gain by lying? Why not just say it was red herring if it was? Why not just stick with Taimandred if that was the plan? No part of this makes sense. It is just pathetic the way people can't just accept what RJ said, and insist on clinging to their theory long after it was disproved, and trying to smear RJ for having the temerity to have different plans for his series to them. It's long past time to put this to rest. It is not the plan, nor was it ever the plan, to make Taim Demandred. If you think the "many, many, many, many, many, many" coincidences are too much, show us what they are. You have no substance to anything you say.

[Tom Sawyer]

Don't know why he would.  Just not buying it all being coincidental, though.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Don't know if it has been mentioned in the oficial thread (having come to Dragonmount too late, and unwilling and or unable to read so many pages of discussion to be part of it...), but my family leans a little toward Taim being Asodean -as made aparant through a few matching mannerisms...

[Lacanos]

Don't know if it has been mentioned in the oficial thread (having come to Dragonmount too late, and unwilling and or unable to read so many pages of discussion to be part of it...), but my family leans a little toward Taim being Asodean -as made aparant through a few matching mannerisms...

 

Welcome to Dragonmount :P

However, Asmodean is absolutely and utterly dead. He's not coming back either. He's gone for good.

[Caedn of the Taardad]

Don't know if it has been mentioned in the oficial thread (having come to Dragonmount too late, and unwilling and or unable to read so many pages of discussion to be part of it...), but my family leans a little toward Taim being Asodean -as made aparant through a few matching mannerisms...

 

Welcome to Dragonmount :P

However, Asmodean is absolutely and utterly dead. He's not coming back either. He's gone for good.

 

At the risk of reprimand, do you have a quote (preferably RJ/BS), or some such?  Time frame would allow a transferance to Taim's body, and my Father's firm belief in it forces me to keep an open mind...

 

Edit:  Forget that, I finaly (and randomly) found the one I was looking for again (and after all that time searching, I stumble upon it...). 

 

'WSB: Since you said at an earlier signing that the Dark One couldn't have brought back Asmodean if he wanted, was that at the time of Asmodean's death, or after that?

RJ: The Dark One couldn't bring back Asmodean because of the combination of 2 factors: HOW HE DIED and WHERE HE DIED. Not one or the other, both factors.'

 

 

So now I can finaly disprove that one for my poor, disconnected household...

[Mr Ares]

Don't know why he would. Just not buying it all being coincidental, though.

Why is it so hard to buy that a couple of similarities might occur by accident?

[Trib4l]

Because RJ had shown us that he meticulously plans EVERYTHING that has happened in the series. It's a hard pill to swallow to think that he would be caught by surprise that readers would see a link between them when Taim looks akin to Demandred and says things like:

 

"so-called Aes Sedai"

"so-called Aiel"

 

Based on what we see of female "wilders" in the series, he also demonstrates knowledge of the power that a person who is not trained would not have. Rand is a complete dunce for not catching ANY of those things.

 

I don't personally follow with these theories though I can understand why people would. I like to think that Taim was 13x13'd, but that doesn't make proof either. I also considered the possibility that he was an undocumented Forsaken since in the WoT compendium I believe it mentions that there were other "Chosen" than the main 13. It would provide a source for his contempt for the Aes Sedai and the Aiel, though the obvious link to Moridin and training from the Forsaken could do the same. I don't know how possible that is when you consider how the Forsaken typically treat one of their charges - knowledge isn't freely shared and questions are discouraged.

 

Either way, we know RJ said he's not Demandred so that's that. Also - I'm going to lay this out right now: I'm not calling anyone a liar. Start that crap with me and I will utterly marginalize you like so many others have.

[bubbified]

Ya, years ago I'd assumed that demondrad was taim because of the similarities, and there werent many seats of power and forsaken left unattached to each other. So...

1. 13x13, likely

2. always was a DF but otherwise unspoken for, could be

3. trained by ishy early on, likely

4. coincidence but a DF now, unlikely

5. an unmentioned Chosen, could be

6. a new Chosen, could be

7. a double agent, unlikely same reason as 8

8. a good guy, gotta be impossible after a never before heard by non-chosen "let the lord of chaos..."

So we got a taim training an army of dreadlords on this side...

And army of borderlanders, a new(to me) theory about aiel male channelers being grouped up somewhere, and the possiblity of the isle of madmen or shara being martialed by demondrad.  We know he's martialing some force somewhere according to his POV

[Mr Ares]

Because RJ had shown us that he meticulously plans EVERYTHING that has happened in the series. It's a hard pill to swallow to think that he would be caught by surprise that readers would see a link between them when Taim looks akin to Demandred and says things like:

 

"so-called Aes Sedai"

"so-called Aiel"

Yet most of those similarities do not link to Demandred, specifically. All you have is a couple of similarities, and it is not too big a stretch to believe that they could come up in more than one character. Coincidence. And hard pill to swallow or not, that he might not realise that a couple of similarities might cause people to think Taim is Demandred, it did indeed catch him off guard, by his own admission. Either you agree that he didn't do it intentionally, it did take him by surprise, or you call him a liar. Those are your options. Your not calling him a liar, so you must accept that it was just a coincidence that took RJ by surprise.

[Tom Sawyer]

It's just very out of character from the way that other things in the series are written.  One of the best parts about his writing is all the little clues and hints he weaves into the storyline that turn out to be important later.  It's doubly enjoyable how he does that, since it's fun to read and also fun to discuss all the little hints and clues that are scattered throughout the book.  The blatantness of the comparisons between Taim and Demandred, especially in LoC, fits perfectly into that style.  His not noticing it and all those things just being random simply strikes me as an implausible claim and i don't buy that it's coincidental.

 

[Mr Ares]

He's not omniscient, he's made mistakes before. Whoops, I intended to include such and such, whoops Lan is sharpening his Power wrought sword. If he's setting up, for example, Taim was trained by Ishy, then that explains some of his oddities, so it is not unreasonable that he overlooked that people might see one or two similarities and associate them with the two people being the same. He didn't intend the similarity to be meaningful, but it happened. It is hardly that out of character. What would be out of character is RJ lying, given that he has never been known to do so before or since in his interviews. Mistaken, yes, he has had to retract things said by mistake. But he said he didn't intend Taimandred, so given the complete absence of anything to the contrary, he never intended it.

[Owayn The Traveller]

I have to say the bit where he pins the dragon and sword on Taims coat and Taims reaction kinda reminds you of Demandred a bit when lews therin mentions that he just got more and more pissed off the more platatiudes and medals he slapped on him in the war of power, Demandred that is and he mentions Sammal aswell there though. That is one of the times that  you could be forgiving for thinkin they are one and the same but then the Lews Therin who says that about Demandred is the voice in Rands head and thats another debate again whether or not that is Lews Therin or just Rand trying to cope. I think its Lews Therin.

[OneDragon]

If Taim was one of the Chosen and protected from the taint or just protected as a dreadlord.

 

Then how comes Rand could not see the black strings tied to him by the DO?

[Cillian]

If Taim was one of the Chosen and protected from the taint or just protected as a dreadlord.

Then how comes Rand could not see the black strings tied to him by the DO?

 

I was sure this had been gone over in this thread, but I just checked, must have been a different thread.

Anyway, from what I remember, the only time Rand has seen them was when he wasn't in the "real" world, like Skimming after Asmodean.

He's never been in a place like that with Taim.