Ilyena, is she reborn or not?

[OptimusPrime]

I'm allowed to dream. There is a part of Rand that is LTT, albeit memories.

So why was so much emphasis placed on LTT's torment, I'm only stating I would like to see closure on this.

Maybe it wont happen, but like I said.... I'm allowed to dream.

 

The thing is that the memories of Lews Therins torment is what drove Rand to seperate himself from them. Then in TGS Rand goes through his own version of that torment in the form of Semirhage making him hurt Min. Rands escape and his usage of the True Power, and the whole ordeal in general, made him sink deeper into his depression and, at the same time, the link to Moridin is getting stronger which made Rands depression very dark as you know. And just when Rand was at the bottom of the pit that was his Ishamael frame of mind, in VoG, the memories of his past life... past LIVES... which are represented by "Lews Therin", saved him when he was literally going to destroy the Pattern with the Choeden Kal. What happened in VoG is that in remembering the good things about Lews Therin, and not just the bad, Rand pulled himself out of the Ishamael frame of mind. So, without a shadow of a doubt, Lews Therin got his absolution in the form of memories in Rands head, because those memories stopped him from destroying everything again in the next life.

 

If that is not absolution, there is no such thing. Lews Therins memories saved the world from its saviour.

[DaughterOfNight]

 

I thought Ilyena to be Elayne for so long, if only because they were described similarly -- UNTIL Rand started choking the daylights out of Min.  And then I started to wonder if Ilyena was Min.  Even that I'm not sure of, though. 

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

We'll find out on the last page of the final book that she was the servant Rand ran past while chasing Rhavin in Caemlyn. That would be about as much book time as her character deserved.

[farthammer]

Ilyena was actually Ishamael in drag.  LTT forgot to perform the crocodile dundee gender check.

[OptimusPrime]

Ilyena was actually Ishamael in drag.  LTT forgot to perform the crocodile dundee gender check.

 

LEWS THERIN: Hey Ilyena, wana let me stab you with my knife? Yeah you like dirty talk dont you? Im going to unsheathe-

 

ILYENA: Thats not a knife. *drops pants* This is a knife.

[Senexx]

Ilyena or Elyena as spelling involves

 

Elyena rearranged equals Elayne.

[Luckers]

Rand neither looks like Lews Therin, nor is his name a funky alteration of Lews Therin--what makes people think Elayne's looks or name indicate anything?

 

Ilyena might as easily be a damane in Seanchan or mad witch living in a hut in the Land of the Madmen. In fact that is more probable since she's never been linked to the cycle of Rand's rebirth like, say Birgitte and Gaidal.

[Senexx]

Nor does it disprove that she is Ilyena. 

 

In fact I'm curious to know if Ilyena is a real name in the real world?  Or whether it is just another made up fantasy word like "muggles", as often fantasy words do have roots in history.

 

She may have been never linked to the rebirth cycle but the wheel spins these people out time and time again.

 

There is no fun in being absolutely correct.  All the fun is in speculating.

[Senexx]

Scrap the question whether Ilyena is a real name or not.  Turns out it is Helen Mirren's given name.

[Shadow Rider]

Mirren was born Ilyena Vasilievna Mironov. WoW...Ilyena lives!

[Luckers]

Nor does it disprove that she is Ilyena.

 

Nor does it disprove she's my aged aunt. Doesn't mean I think she might be.

[mb]

she's never been linked to the cycle of Rand's rebirth like, say Birgitte and Gaidal.

Actually, the books do not tell whether she was linked or not.

 

[Duskfire]

she's never been linked to the cycle of Rand's rebirth like, say Birgitte and Gaidal.

Actually, the books do not tell whether she was linked or not.

 

 

Thats true, but the fact that Rand loves three seperate women suggests to me that she isnt linked to him at all. How many legends are there of Birgitte, Gaidal Cain and some other guy?

[Ashaman Kovan]

You do realize the voice wasn't actually LTT don't you?

 

Says you in your opinion.

 

No says the books...CLEARLY. A soul can not be split or exist at the same time. The memories can be real while the voice actually being LTT is an impossibility.

 

Well...No, it doesn't. There was no "soul splitting" involved. They were TWO facets of the SAME soul. And what do you mean "A soul cannot exist at the same time"?

The taint induced Rand madness, which induced him hearing the voice of LTT. Which as we know is a common form of madness. Which as we also know, doesn't automatically discount the voice being real. People can be insane and hear the real voice of the person they used be. In fact, that might make you even more crazy.

[Suttree]

You do realize the voice wasn't actually LTT don't you?

 

Says you in your opinion.

 

No says the books...CLEARLY. A soul can not be split or exist at the same time. The memories can be real while the voice actually being LTT is an impossibility.

 

Well...No, it doesn't. There was no "soul splitting" involved. They were TWO facets of the SAME soul. And what do you mean "A soul cannot exist at the same time"?

The taint induced Rand madness, which induced him hearing the voice of LTT. Which as we know is a common form of madness. Which as we also know, doesn't automatically discount the voice being real. People can be insane and hear the real voice of the person they used be. In fact, that might make you even more crazy.

 

OMG! Sorry I didn't know I was actually discussing the issue with Semirhage!!! Way to prove you can regurgitate lines from KOD and thanks for backing up the point I was making. While LTT's memories can be real, though a construct of Rand's mind there is no "facet" of the same soul actually existing that would need closure with Ilyena. It is a constructed VOICE in his head, no matter how true the memories it doesn't exist hence not real.

[Luckers]

Firstly, cool down Suttree.

 

Asha'man Kovan is quite correct in reciting Semirhage's comments. She does directly state that you may hear a real voice of a past facet personality--a real voice, of that personality, not a construct to give voice to real memories. She is quite specific in this.

 

Of course you may disagree with Semirhage, but if I may suggest you check out my thread upon this, it may better illustrate for your our position, and you might not be quite so angry with us for not immediately agreeing with you.

 

In the short though, get used to the fact that we do not respect the sacrosanctity of the Construct Theory. Getting angry with us and offering diatribical rants will not alter this.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Firstly, cool down Suttree.

 

Asha'man Kovan is quite correct in reciting Semirhage's comments. She does directly state that you may hear a real voice of a past facet personality--a real voice, of that personality, not a construct to give voice to real memories. She is quite specific in this.

 

Of course you may disagree with Semirhage, but if I may suggest you check out my thread upon this, it may better illustrate for your our position, and you might not be quite so angry with us for not immediately agreeing with you.

 

In the short though, get used to the fact that we do not respect the sacrosanctity of the Construct Theory. Getting angry with us and offering diatribical rants will not alter this.

 

 

Ok Ive not had chance to look at that thread yet Luckers, but in short... If you are with the "voice is real" side of this, then how do you explain that Lews Therin was gone after Rands therapy session, AND he experienced new memories from lives OTHER than Lews Therin?

[Luckers]

If you are with the "voice is real" side of this, then how do you explain that Lews Therin was gone after Rands therapy session

 

Integration, just as Semirhage states. Rand, in becoming suicidal, aligned with Lews Therin's mental state. From that similar perspective they both came to percieve hope--Rand in that there was a meaning to each struggle, because each time it gave you a chance to do things right, and Lews Therin in that Ilyena could live again.

 

From that joined perception they came to percieve they were not different men, but the same, and intergrated.

 

AND he experienced new memories from lives OTHER than Lews Therin?

 

Yes. I don't see that as problematic. In integrating the two facet personalities rejoined the greater cohesion of the soul, much like heroes between birthings.

 

 

[Suttree]

Firstly, cool down Suttree.

 

Asha'man Kovan is quite correct in reciting Semirhage's comments. She does directly state that you may hear a real voice of a past facet personality--a real voice, of that personality, not a construct to give voice to real memories. She is quite specific in this.

 

Of course you may disagree with Semirhage, but if I may suggest you check out my thread upon this, it may better illustrate for your our position, and you might not be quite so angry with us for not immediately agreeing with you.

 

In the short though, get used to the fact that we do not respect the sacrosanctity of the Construct Theory. Getting angry with us and offering diatribical rants will not alter this.

 

 

Apologizes Ash & Luck, if you knew me personally you would have heard sarcasm with a smile not a "diatribical"(how many scrabble points for that one?) rant. Was just referring to Ash taking Semi words as his own not using the quote. Semi is quite clear in saying the "voice" is real. That doesn't rule out a construct with real memories by any means. In fact pulling past life memories for a construct seems like the most likely scenario. In regards to the Construct Theory being true...eh time will tell hopefully. The explanation of both coming to perceive hope simultaneously and shrugging off the other memories as "not problematic" is a stretch when the obvious answer is right there in front of us. LTT is long dead and gone...not real. It took a madman to construct his voice through true memories of past lives.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Firstly, cool down Suttree.

 

Asha'man Kovan is quite correct in reciting Semirhage's comments. She does directly state that you may hear a real voice of a past facet personality--a real voice, of that personality, not a construct to give voice to real memories. She is quite specific in this.

 

Of course you may disagree with Semirhage, but if I may suggest you check out my thread upon this, it may better illustrate for your our position, and you might not be quite so angry with us for not immediately agreeing with you.

 

In the short though, get used to the fact that we do not respect the sacrosanctity of the Construct Theory. Getting angry with us and offering diatribical rants will not alter this.

 

 

Was just referring to Ash taking Semi words as his own not using the quote.

 

I honestly didn't realize it was necessary to specify that it came from Semirhage. I also don't honestly think anyone else would think that I somehow came up with that off the top of my head or that I'd deluded myself into thinking BS confided in me. So sorry if you thought that.

 

To restate my original post though "Says you in your opinion." Then after that what Luckers said. :]

 

Actually, if IIRC BS said that it was one of the things RJ wanted to stay unresolved. Or maybe RJ said it I'm not sure. Not directly to me of course. ;]

[sonieb33]

I thought about that it's not true, a soul can be born either gender....take Balthamel for example...he's a woman now. But then he wasn't re-born just brought back....does it matter....

 

I just read a quote from RJ today where he says that genders don't swap when they are reborn...but Aginor and Osangar were remanufactured by the DO not spun out by the wheel.

[garryowen]

She may have been reborn at any point well before the series began and died already. The Third Age isn't a new one, and there is no particular reason that Ilyena would be reborn during the same time period as The Dragon. I don't think there is any rule that states that old lovers will necessarily be born in the same century. So, my answer is likely not. She is likely not alive during the story's timeline in all probability. This is especially true given the assumption that she has an equal chance of being conceived at any particular moment during the third age.

off topic:

And since the topic of the Lews Therin voice came up, I will throw my two cents in. Lews Therin's "voiced" contributions within Rand's mind are actually Rand's own thoughts imo. I believe Rand's madness manifestation is that rather than accepting the memories of Lews Therin as his own, he perceives it as a distinct voice and personality apart from his own thoughts and personality. When he struggles with Lews Therin, he is struggling with himself. When he argues with Lews Therin, he is contemplating something (like madmen do). Since Rand IS the Dragon (and since Rand Al'Thor and Lews Therin are part of the set of all incarnations of the Dragon) incarnate, technically they really are his own thoughts and memories.

 

As to whether the voice is real or a construct: Are your thoughts real or just constructs? That seems like a philosophy question that I don't have time to talk about, but I think that Rand definitely perceives the voice as real and distinguished from himself. Think about it. Suppose hypothetically that reincarnation is real for just a moment, and it is a widely understood fact of life. If you remember bits and pieces of your past life, they are your memories, aren't they? If parts of your personality have carried over from your previous life, and you have some of those memories from that time you may behave in part according to those facts.

[Val Mickey]

Ilyena is Alanna, of course. :D

[mossman87]

Whenever someone said Alivia I always thought that'd be very interesting.  Never bothered to research it at all though.

[mb]

she's never been linked to the cycle of Rand's rebirth like, say Birgitte and Gaidal.

Actually, the books do not tell whether she was linked or not.

Thats true, but the fact that Rand loves three seperate women suggests to me that she isnt linked to him at all. How many legends are there of Birgitte, Gaidal Cain and some other guy?

Link souls might have different kind of situations in different rebirths.

As far as I am aware, only part of Birgitte's rebirths were told.