Victory Conditions for the Dark One

[rubbernilly]

Very simple question, what does the Dark One need to win?

 

What does God need with a starship?

 

Sorry, wrong universe. Back to the point...

 

We know what the DO would do if he were to win.

We know that in the past the champion of the light has gone over to the shadow, so that alone cannot be what the DO needs... else he wouldn't be trapped anymore.

 

So what is the DO's game? It seems he has been maneuvering for this particular Turning of the Wheel for several Ages now... maybe even several Turnings of the Wheel... to get the dominoes aligned just so.

 

What is he missing?

[MikeRiley]

Magnify the chaos in man's heart and disrupt the balance of the Wheel. All through the series we see the Forsaken working on his orders to stir chaos, and in nearly every major event we have the Light side fighting against the chaos itself rather than the Dark One's actual forces. I believe the chaos is his real plan of attack and it's not as simple as light vs dark. Verin suggests the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is.

 

So basically, the Dark One just needs to prevent law and order from ever being a possibility.

[Shadow Rider]

Bella!!! ;D

[rubbernilly]

Magnify the chaos in man's heart and disrupt the balance of the Wheel. All through the series we see the Forsaken working on his orders to stir chaos, and in nearly every major event we have the Light side fighting against the chaos itself rather than the Dark One's actual forces. I believe the chaos is his real plan of attack and it's not as simple as light vs dark. Verin suggests the war isn't being fought the way Rand thinks it is.

 

So basically, the Dark One just needs to prevent law and order from ever being a possibility.

 

The chaos seems to be a tool rather than an end in and of itself... you know, keeping the forces of the light off balance and unable to respond/retaliate when he makes his move.

 

But you have a good point that we might have to define the form of the battle in order to understand the victory conditions of the DO.

[Durinax]

all the shadow needs is for Rand to celebrate St patties day a bit too much and die from alcohol poisoning to win

[Agitel]

I've heard conflicting points about Rand ever switching sides.

 

But anyway, he just needs to unravel the Pattern.

[OptimusPrime]

Very simple question, what does the Dark One need to win?

 

What does God need with a starship?

 

Sorry, wrong universe. Back to the point...

 

We know what the DO would do if he were to win.

We know that in the past the champion of the light has gone over to the shadow, so that alone cannot be what the DO needs... else he wouldn't be trapped anymore.

 

So what is the DO's game? It seems he has been maneuvering for this particular Turning of the Wheel for several Ages now... maybe even several Turnings of the Wheel... to get the dominoes aligned just so.

 

What is he missing?

 

I have a theory on this, but I would be restricted in explaining it here. Long story short, I reckon the Dark One needs a Dragon that actually wants him to win. Say, if Lanfear was somehow the Dragon we would have a draw as RJ said; she "serves" the Dark One but isnt loyal to him. Yet, if Moridin was the Dragon, we have the right kind of Dragon that would result in a win and not a draw. He knows the Dark Ones plan, wants an end to the war via an end to existence.

 

As I said, theres more but I cant go into it here.

[Beer Rot]

What does God need with a starship?

 

Now I have Shatner in my head, thanks.

 

As for "Rand" ever going to the Shadow, I highly doubt it.  Just another lie told to make him waiver.

[TheBeerPatriot]

all the shadow needs is for Rand to celebrate St patties day a bit too much and die from alcohol poisoning to win

And if Rand doesn't do enough Jagerbombs to offset the Zima he accidentally drank..."I have won again, Lews Therin"

[Tom Sawyer]

 

 

We know what the DO would do if he were to win.

We know that in the past the champion of the light has gone over to the shadow, so that alone cannot be what the DO needs... else he wouldn't be trapped anymore.

 

 

When has a champion of the light gone over to the shadow?  Ishamael told Rand that he'd made that choice before, but then at the end of book 2 or 3, Rand said that that was a lie and he'd never served the DO in any of his lives.

 

I think that's what the DO needs.  If Rand wins, an Age of Light comes and the Shadow is defeated for a few thousand years until they're both reborn and do it again.  If Ishamael wins, he rules over an Age of Shadow for a few thousand years until Rand's reborn and they fight again.  This is what's been happening for a million or so lifetimes.  I think that Rand turning to the Shadow is the only thing that can release the DO.

 

Ishamael was always more interested in turning Rand to the Shadow than killing him and it was only after he rejected that that he got pissed off and tried to kill him.  Now that he's back, he's again wanting Rand to live to the Last Battle so he can turn Rand and the DO can be freed.

[mb]

Not sure if the Dark One would "need" anything to win because of the things he caused so far by himself. (weather, miasma, ghosts, shifting corridors, etc)

 

[rubbernilly]

I thought we had a quote from RJ that said basically that, yes, the Light's champion had gone over to the shadow in ages past... that Rand's defiant statement to Ishi was more belief than factual knowledge. I could definitely be wrong about that, because I also remember the quote from RJ that "Ishamael is a lying liar who lies." So, I'm not exactly sure.

 

That said, everything that the DO has managed to do by himself thus far is only color/texture to the greater goal of destroying-the-Pattern/ending-Time. If he can't do that from outside of the Pattern (or can't do that from solely outside of the Pattern), then what has to happen within the Pattern?

 

I guess it comes down to two questions...

 

What would let him win (ie, enable him to win)?

What would enable him to destroy the Pattern?

[farthammer]

Mostly expect the DO/Shadow turn out to be the manifestation of a 'dream' in a sense similar to the idea of Tel'aran'rhiod, rather than necessarily being a sentient entity.  I don't think anyone or anything is singularly responsible for it, although I think someone like Moridin is the closest towards being any kind of driver.  There seems to have been some foundation even if it was a small one prior to the making of the bore.  Lanfear and Moridin existed beforehand seemingly not quite so different than as we know them in the series.  The idea that humanity or the world could conquer evil through direct battle is flawed in the context of the story and that winning the last battle will require the kind of stepping back from it all and reexamining the truth of what is happening.  That sounds fairly vague but I believe the foundations have been laid throughout the books to sort of witness on an epic scale that sort of struggle.  The Shadow is winning because it has managed to corrupt and distract the world away from justifying why they should even win in the first place.

[Crael123]

he needs all barriers to be broken so he kan kill the pattern!!

[rubbernilly]

he needs all barriers to be broken so he kan kill the pattern!!

 

OK, but that's part of what I'm trying to understand. There was plenty of time from the drilling of the Bore to the seals being put into place where the DO had unmitigated contact with the world -- if only through the Bore. All of the Forsaken eventually turned to the shadow, and then earned their various nicknames destroying cities, or raising street urchin armies... you know, like you do when you're an uber-baddie.

 

What are we to expect when the seals are finally broken? Are you thinking that the Bore is going to be bigger than it was when the seals weren't stopping his access? Big enough to finally let the DO do something Pattern-destroying? Or does he need something else at the same time?

[MikeRiley]

That's why I think the chaos itself is his objective. The Wheel balances good and evil. If the Dark One stepped in and magnified the evil in man's mind it would tip the balance in favor of evil and the Wheel would no longer be able to turn. The specks of light trying to fill the dark in Min's visions. The Wheel is using its three ta'veren to try to keep the balance in place.

[divinorum]

The victory conditions were suggested in the prologue of Path of Daggers when Moridin was playing Sha'rah:

1 - "When the Fisher (The Dragon) was yours, you tried to move him to a square of your color behind your opponent's end of the board. That was victory, the easiest way, but not the only one." Maybe meaning chaining the Dragon to serve the Shadow with the 13 + 13 trick?

2 - "When your opponent held the Fisher, you attempted to leave him no choice for the Fisher but to move onto your color. Anywhere at all along the goal-row would do; holding the Fisher could be more dangerous than not." Probably means manipulating Rand into sewing chaos, scaring and threathening people, making him a tyrant, balefiring people, or letting him wreak havoc with the Access Key.

3 - "Of course, there was a third path to victory in sha'rah, if you took it before letting yourself get trapped. The game always degenerated in a bloody melee, then, victory coming only with complete annihilation of your enemy." Sending trollocs, myrdraal and dreadlords to kill everyone on the Light side.

 

The talk about the Dragon serving the Shadow in the past may be a lie, or it may simply mean that the Shadow controlled him for a while before the Light could win back control over him.

[Beer Rot]

This has probably been discussed in the past but;  I think the Dragon/Fisher/Jesus/Skywalker Reborn is just as essential for the DO's victory as it is for his defeat.. otherwise why the pretense and 13 books of failures for the Shadow.  Ishy could've just balefired Rand from the get-go and won the game.

[MikeRiley]

It was stated somewhere in one of the books that the Dragon was not necessary to win the Last Battle, it would just be almost impossible to win it without him. The Dragon's well-being has a direct influence over law and order in lands he controls. When he steels himself and becomes less-human, people go hungry and chaos ensues. Whatever he will do in the Last Battle, others could do as well. Just his presence could make it infinitely easier.

 

Going the other way, when his mood grows darker, the land becomes less fertile and he causes that chaos. Being less trusting he is only doing the Dark One a favor by carrying out his plans. "Let the Lord of Chaos rule." During this time, Rand would be aiding the wrong cause and would be making it much easier for the Dark One to win.

[Durinax]

The dragon is tied to the land

when he lost a bit of a his humanity and became cold and hard that was when food spoilage really started to rise. This Helps the shadow alot because in times of trial people would turn either to the shadow or light for aid

[MikeRiley]

Yeah, I wanted to include that but wasn't sure if I was able to in this section of the forum yet.

[Beer Rot]

The dragon is tied to the land

when he lost a bit of a his humanity and became cold and hard that was when food spoilage really started to rise. This Helps the shadow alot because in times of trial people would turn either to the shadow or light for aid

 

I never thought about that.  It makes sense.  Makes me look forward to the next book even more.

[dokfeelg00d]

The dragon is tied to the land

when he lost a bit of a his humanity and became cold and hard that was when food spoilage really started to rise. This Helps the shadow alot because in times of trial people would turn either to the shadow or light for aid

 

This is really cool.  It makes me wonder how much the DO is a concept kind of like the pink goo from Ghostbusters 2 that tries to rot away humanity.  Or when he breaks free of his prison will he turn into a humanish bad guy that gets in a mind bullet fight with Rand/Logain.  I am really interested in how the quote about the fight against the shadow isn't being fought the way Rand thinks will turn out.

 

/apologies for my grammar - stream of consciousness.

[Bridge]

I don't think that the DO would win only by breking the seals. Contrary, Rand must break the seals in order to win the Final Battle, but this time with the aid from women Aes Sedai. The 100 Aes Seday who aided Lews Therin to seal the DO were all men, thus they failed to succed.

[mb]

Contrary, Rand must break the seals in order to win the Final Battle

It seems to me that neither side needs to break the seals to win since they are already breaking.

 

The 100 Aes Seday who aided Lews Therin to seal the DO were all men, thus they failed to succed.

From what I recall from the Guide, I take Lews Therin and his companions did win/succeed since they accomplished their plan.