[Discussion] Setup Design

[cosmicpanda]

Any mods up for a discussion on this? Got a theme game idea you want to run but you're not sure if anybody wants to play it? Got a game ready to run that you want to hype up and get people salivating at the mouth for?

 

To start, I'll post some thoughts I have about balance and swinginess that might help out inexperienced mods design their first games. (I also want to plug the mini theme queue, which needs mods. These games are supposed to be small, fast and fun, and can be used to test out any kooky setup ideas you have without waiting for the big game queue! What are people waiting for?)

 

 

Anyway, balance is the concept of ensuring that both town and scum have an equal chance to win. Why do you want to do this? Simply because as mod, you are supposed to be impartial. This means that if you invent a crazy but cool series of roles for town, scum had better have something that can match it; and vice versa.

 

Generally speaking, scum have it easy in a game without power roles - so much so that 10 townies to 2 scum actually favours scum, according to the good folks over at mafiascum. This means it's a good idea to have some town power roles; the most common are cop (finder) and doc (healer). Cops are very powerful, docs slightly less so. There are many other interesting roles that one might use. If a game has both cop and doc, it's not uncommon for the scum team to have a roleblocker. Common ratios of scum-town, assuming that some combination of cop, doc and mafia rolebockers are in play, are 2 vs 7 and 3 vs 9.

 

What about multiple scum-groups? These are interesting to play with, since scum have the chance of killing each other off. This means that scum need higher numbers in order to have a fair chance. In a 12-player game, this might be 2 vs 2 vs 8, for example. Of course, there will be two nightkills each night, which could mean a short game for town unless you have a doctor!

 

What about serial killers? These roles are notoriously hard to win with; essentialy, they are a like another scum group with just one person in it. It is tricky to balance their inclusion in a 12 player game, since a 1 SK vs 2 scum vs 9 town game makes it hard for the scum and relatively easy for the town, while 1 SK vs 3 scum vs 8 town makes it hard for the SK. Even then, putting an SK in a bigger game just makes it even harder for the SK.

 

 

As for swinginess, this is the measure of how much a game can swing in favour of one team or another through sheer chance. A game with lots of killing roles, for example, might be both balanced and swingy. Take a game with a serial killer, a scum team and a town vig; this has the potential for three townies dead in one night, which could obviously be quite catastrophic for town! Then again, the SK and vig could take out two mafia members in a single night, which would be catastrophic for scum! Swinginess is not a bad thing and these worst-case scenarios don't often happen, but mods should consider how different roles in their game might interact to make their game finish early. Players can feel cheated of a good game if a game they're playing finishes too soon, or in a way that makes them feel as if they had no chance.

[Red2111]

i think with a roleless set up or a set up with the bare minimum of roles (like most of the standards we have to choose from) who wins mostly depends on the players themselves.

 

for example.  if you have a 12 players stnd with 3 vs 9, and only a cop and finder and god father; you wouldn't want your town to be nothing but newbies or newish players while yoru mafia is nothing but skilled players. 

 

players themselves will make the difference in the game according to how skillful, devious and powerful their role.  so thats somethign always to keep into consideration.  the only way to really judge a players ability though is to play against them and with them ;)

 

 

also i think another way to get know how much one role will shift the balance in a game is to play (either by playing the role or by seeing how a role effects the game first hand), so honestly i think yoru best tool as a mod is to get out there and play, play, play.  it also allows youto see first hand other mods creativeness on roles and give you other ideas for more games :)

 

lily said it best when she said that this game is constantly evolving, which is why it makes it so damn addictive.

 

 

pandy, i've been thinking about the mini mafia, but i'd like some more instruction on how to run one first.  yours is an awesome new concept and i'd love to tinker with it soon, maybe using some of the themes i have stored on my flash disk.  i have an idea for a role that i think would fit best in this type of game but you will all have to PAFO how devious i can be ;)

 

 

the only thing i would like mods to consider doing differently with games, is trying to think up roles that spice up the first day.  the randomness of day 1 is natorious, but throwing in somethign like a frozen player, a day finder or a mysterious kill would really spice things up.  i think its one thing everyone agreed with liking on my Gilligan's Island game :)

 

i've also been thinking about the SK, how to better balance his character.  i've tinkered with his character in other games, like giving him a set number of kills and a freebee kill on the first day.  or allowing him a kill each day but giving the person the choice to kill in either the day or night cycle.

 

when i include an FBI agent, i like to spice things up and make it where the SK automatically kills the detective if veiwed.  this i balance by giving info to the players like informing them there is a SK in the game, and making a player an alt finder.  take my GI mafia again.  Pete (the SK) was able to take Min (Finder) with him.  to give balance to the game, i made my Bruce (FBI Agent) the alt finder.

 

 

in bigger games, like these games we are seeing with 20 and up players, i've thought about including a one time recruiting ability for the SK.  a type of mentor situation if you will.  kinda like a cult/SK combo with only a onetime recruite.  the recruit is connected with the SK, meaning if the SK dies then so does the recruit.  but if the recruit dies the SK stays alive and is able to recruit again.

[Kivam]

Playing with setups can be a lot of fun.  In the next game I'm running, the mafia will have a chance to win by being lynched before all the townies are dead, in addition to winning by outnumbering the townies.  Should be fun  ;D

[Alys Kinch]

Rule of thumb: If you are planning new roles and you are not sure of how things might pan out, don't be afraid to ask for help or a co-mod. Just be sure you keep that player from interupting the flow of the game (playing) if the set up is secret. Barms and I had fun with a co-mod game.

[Pookie]

For a newb mod doing some planning, while some may find having to work within the standard set-ups constricting, I actually find it semi-liberating because if it's not balanced, it's not my fault.  ;D 

 

That said, I think Red has a very good point about the players making a huge difference in how the game is played, regardless of what roles you include.  For example, in a group of 12 with 3 mafia and a SK, if you randomly end up with 3 mafia who either people can read really well or who are normally considered "suspicious" by the masses, you might be down to town vs. SK rather quickly, especially if the SK happens to target mafia too.  Random assignments can also randomly assign people to the same team often enough that people automatically assume their allignment.  *cough* Lily is evil and Alanna is town *cough*  It's not as bad when you're town repeatedly since that helps you when you're not (as long as you don't have obvious tells) but when you're scum a lot, people are willing to jump on the smallest thing as a sign of your guilt.  So from the point of view of how different people play the roles and play the overall game and how random assignments place people, complete balance is more an ideal than a possibility.  The human factor can always screw up your game no matter how much effort you put into it.  :)  It makes it challenging to figure out how to assign roles in the game -- totally random?  random with some changes?  mod god mode where the mod makes all the assignments?  Random seems like the fair way to go, but if it filters everyone into their "normal roles" is it really fair?

 

When it comes to non-standard set-ups, I do think in some of the games with more complex and less standard roles it can be really hard to achieve role balance.  In Rey's Caesar game I played mafia with a framing power.  While it did cause some confusion for one of the players later in the game, I really only needed to figure out one person who was being viewed on one night to take out the finder and the lie detector.  Rey had back-ups built in, but it was a demoralizing situation for the town to find they'd lost their finder and their lie detector mostly due to that one single night action, though they didn't really know about my ability until endgame.  I don't know if that was more a balance issue or the fact that our mafia team put a lot of thought into trying to throw off the town after that action(our QT was 1000+ posts of mostly relevant material), but that night action definitely affected the overall course of the game.  However, it might not have ironed out that way if the LD hadn't revealed day 1.  There goes that human element again.  :) 

 

I do think it's easier to throw off the balance the more unusual the roles get, but people love to make and play unusual roles.  It gets to a point where you're deciding if people will be more excited by a new and different game, even if it lacks balance and they die early, or if they'd prefer balance in a more "normal" game.  If you can make a game where you think people will still avidly follow along even after they're dead, then in my opinion it's a good game even if it's skewed one way or the other.

[ed2funy]

*follows thread*

 

I'll read this later...

Red knows about the game I wanna Mod...but I will post later with some tidbits. ;D

Maybe get that salivating going. :D

[cosmicpanda]

I want to say, balance has nothing to do with player skill. Player skill is what mafia's all about, and if it causes one side to win, more power to them. Balance in an ideal world means that if you run a game 1000 times or so with any players, all teams win an equal number of times. Of course, the SK won't be able to do this, etc etc etc but hey.

[ed2funy]

*is not in the mood to actually read this now*

Maybe later. :D

 

But....I want to run a Lives game (idea on the Wiki). I hope it is fun, and I don't know if anyone has ever done it here before.

I am pretty sure I got it balanced, but so much could throw the balance off, in-game changes would most likely have to be made.

[Red2111]

  Quote

I want to say, balance has nothing to do with player skill. Player skill is what mafia's all about, and if it causes one side to win, more power to them. Balance in an ideal world means that if you run a game 1000 times or so with any players, all teams win an equal number of times. Of course, the SK won't be able to do this, etc etc etc but hey.

 

i think in a game, depending on what type, who is on what team or has what role makes all the difference.

 

 

for instance, look at the mafia team in Rey's game.  given that our powers helped out its was mostly player skill that won that game.  there have been 2 games now where pete and lily have been mafia together (Rey & Min) and both times their mafia team won.

 

 

some players, when allowed to work together can be more of an unbalance to a game than any role.  so if you have pete and lily on a mafia team together, i would strongly suggest giving the town a really strong power to counteract what chaos they can cause ;)

 

:-*  i luv them both though. and Rey's game was absolutley epic

[Alys Kinch]

I think which people fill what roles does matter- a LOT, BUT I don't think a mod should alter the random role give outs to accomodate that. Just because someone is a great finder does not mean they should be given that role a greater number of times. Each player can only grow when they are given roles that cause them to work from a new angle or from a position that they find difficult. I think it's better to play the variety rather than become too well aquainted with any one given role.

[Red2111]

^ yep :)  i couldn't agree more.  its one reason why i find myself signing up for so many games.

[cosmicpanda]

  Quote

some players, when allowed to work together can be more of an unbalance to a game than any role.  so if you have pete and lily on a mafia team together, i would strongly suggest giving the town a really strong power to counteract what chaos they can cause ;)

 

I respectfully disagree. You're confusing player skill and a theoretically balanced game. If a player or combination of players are more skilful than others, why should you stack the game against them just because you feel that others need a chance to win?

[Guest dragonsworn1991]

With some roles I have created I assign roles to players to see how they will play them. Other then that I leave my roles to chance. The mod god rule pretty much makes balance not an issue, to a watchful eye. Or anticipation of an action and tweaking a role with certain previsions also does the trick. I have even given little powers to help keep a game running smoothly. No one wants to play a dominating or boring game. I also watch who I give some roles to since like I said I want my games to be fun to mod and fun to play. 

[Pookie]

Do you folks avoid giving key rolls to players who are prone to inactivity or have LOA's planned or do you just let the random do as it will?  I think that would be the hardest part of assigning roles randomly for me... knowing I'm making the healer someone who has a LOA mid-game and would miss a night phase or capping my frustration if the randomly assigned Vig barely manages to remain within the post-per-day-game rule. 

 

Do you ruthlessly kill those roles if you have to modkill for some reason or do you pass the role on to someone who is active, especially in the first day or two?  Does it depend on the reason for the modkill?  Just as an example, if the healer edits a post on day 1, is that goodbye for the healing role for the town?  I can understand the need to be unwavering with following the rules, but is there a use for giving leeway in some situations? 

[Red2111]

pandy - i wont stack the game against a skillful player.  but i might take measures to ensure they can't just go in and bulldoze the game. 

 

i agree alot with what pete said about handing out roles.  i also have a soft spot for newbies to the game, so i try to make the game really fun for them if i can (that way they get hooked and keep commign back for more ;) )

 

 

with me Pookie, i try to ive players the benifit of the doubt when handing out roles.  if a game is going on and a player has to go on LOA and that player has an action, i'll mostlikely ask the person to go ahead and submit their action before they leave, especially if its a role blocker, or protection role or a killing or recruiting role. 

 

if the god father for the mafia is goign on LOA, i'd simply leave it up to the othe member of the mafia team to submit the nk and maybe temporarily assign any roles on the scum team to another player of the team to submit their night action.  like if the role blocker, freezer or recruiter is on LOA. 

 

 

i really havent seen any single player that sign up for a game then just flat out don't play.  but the crowd that is playing now has a habit of lynching off those that just lurk anyways.  also the new rule that mods are using "random lynch from non-voters" helps with detering people who wont play from signing up.

 

also, imo if a player has a role they are more likely to want to play the game because they can impact the game and having a role is always fun :) 

 

 

 

as for the alt's if a power role is mod killed.  yeah i think if you have a game that has alot of roleless players and you have to modkill a player with a power role, you should be able to re-assign that role.  i'm talking a modkill for breaking the rules, this doesn't include a random lynch from non-voters.

 

 

 

how do people feel about the "Dead Thread"  personally i like them, but Rey's game shows how badly they can be abused lol

 

[Alys Kinch]

When I ran games, (not many) I tried to ensure that everyone playing was going to be available. I think I only ever changed one player from a role. I think that players should NOT sign up if they KNOW they are going to be going on LOA in close proximity to a game. Unexpected LOAs are quite different. This is something mods were heavy on stressing when I was here before.

 

But there is also another way around this. If you have the no activity mod kill in play, you should always try to grab some back up players to refill those important roles. That said, if you only ever fill important roles, you give the game away, so keep 2 or 3 in reserve.

 

Dead threads (if it means what I think...) can be fun. It also means that people who have died aren't getting all of the information about the game, so they can maybe continue to help their teams. Means that people don't just die and give up and quit reading too. I think DPR ran a game in Illuminators that was my first experience. Sira rocked that thread.

[Pookie]

I don't like dead threads and I'll use Rey's as an example since it was my first experience with it.  The mafia was using the dead thread to distract the town and maybe throw them off, but Talya started to counter-balance that.  I could see a scenario in which the people in the dead thread started giving direct advice to the people still playing (this didn't happen, but I think that was because Talya has restraint *grins*).  IMO that negates a rather important fuction of the night kill -- being able to get rid of people who are too suspicious of the mafia.  They can just continue to broadcast what they know on the dead thread and essentially keep playing the game by leading the town. 

 

Red's Gilligan game also had a dead thread with these rules:

- absolutley no revealing info that has not been discussed in game, the time to reveal info you have learned was while you were alive.

- you may however comment on others still playing in the game

 

I understood this to mean a finder can't reveal unrevealed findings, but I couldn't figure out how to comment on others without throwing off the game play.  So I just didn't comment, but that doesn't mean other people would have the same ideals.  :)

[Alys Kinch]

The rules of a dead thread are very important. If you aren't allowed to reveal information that was revealed on thread before your death, it helps to protect the game. But someone catching a move from the audience could quote that section and avoid inserting too much insight. Such as saying this quote seems like a signal for someone or something.

 

Also helpful for the dead players to point out stats the other players might over look. If we have x mafia left that means x town which means we have x days left.

 

Also, yes, it does negate the mafia kill as a shut up tactic, but dead mafia also get to continue to subvert other players. Tit for tat. And I think that is shadowed by the effect of allowing dead players to still play.

 

This type of thread is best used with a no reveal on death (what's the term I am looking for???). It's all about subversion and keeping the game interesting. If you listen to this or that dead player, how do you know their alignment?

[DPR]

 

How did I miss this thread?

 

And I gotta go now, but for the sake of posterity, I use a six-point spindle top design to balance games. And I will modkill at the bat of a lash...heh

[Verbal32]

  Quote

Do you folks avoid giving key rolls to players who are prone to inactivity or have LOA's planned or do you just let the random do as it will? 

 

I have to say that I have done this.  In a game I ran on another site (MJ), a random player was assigned the roleblocker role, which I then moved due to that player commonly being a deserter or totally inactive.  So that player got the vanilla role, while an active player got the roleblocker role.

 

I assign them randomly, and then tweak a few as needed.....but I won't play favorites.

[Jeran]

I just saw this rule on another website:

 

"You must vote every day. If you do not vote, I will consider it a self-vote."

 

I thought it was kind of interesting.  Any thoughts on whether it is good or bad or indifferent?

[cosmicpanda]

If it's a standard game, I can sense why the mod would do it. However, the mod is supposed to be impartial and not impose his views on how to play mafia on the players, and as such I don't like it.

 

I suppose though that there could be some crazy theme game that requires this rule to work.

[LilyElizabeth]

This is a good thread to bump. Good stuff here.