The new dreadlords

[Guest Majsju]

Taim not being a DF fits very well with my theory of him being "Demandred of this Age".

 

Look at Demandred in the AOL. Born the day after LTT, always just one step behind LTT, which caused the jealousy that made him turn to the DO.

 

Then look at Taim. Almost the Dragon Reborn (if you look at his first meeting with Rand, where he talks about how it could have been him), he's almost as strong as Rand, the same pattern of Almost that was between Demandred and LTT.

 

Now, maybe Taim has had some contact with the Forsaken. Maybe he has turned to the DO.

But there is a possibility that he's just turned against Rand on his own, just planning to off Rand so he can get that greatness for himself.

 

It's all a big RAFO, but worth thinking about.

[Moric]

Ayup, it's worth thinking about, all right...

 

Myself I'd guess he's a darkfriend (allthough many of the "proofs" here has nothing to do with it, it's more of a "gut thing").

I'm pretty sure he's neither Demandred nor Moridin (or any other male Forsaken). The reason? Why share a power base with another Forsaken (Osan'gar)? It makes no sense considering how they plot and scheme amongst themselves and how suspicious they all are.

 

Moric of the Singing Wind Sept of the Miagoma Aiel

[alCal]

Taim not being a DF fits very well with my theory of him being "Demandred of this Age".

...

 

Now' date=' maybe Taim has had some contact with the Forsaken. Maybe he has turned to the DO.

But there is a possibility that he's just turned against Rand on his own, just planning to off Rand so he can get that greatness for himself.

 

It's all a big RAFO, but worth thinking about.[/quote']

 

Indeed, worth thinking about. But if he is the Demandred of this Age, remember that Demandred himself actuallty turned to the DO.

If he (Taim) wasn't a DF from the beginning, he is now.

[Woody]

I think we need to get off this topic of Taim, because we are getting nowhere. What does everyone think of the Sea folk and their mourning over the loss and do you think they will send ships to help Rand. Also what do think Rand and Tuon. Do you think they will reach an agreement? and what about Perrin or Mat. What does the pattern hold instore for them?

Finally do you think Egwene will make the white Tower whole or will her cause fail?

[Guest Majsju]

I think we need to get off this topic of Taim' date=' because we are getting nowhere. What does everyone think of the Sea folk and their mourning over the loss and do you think they will send ships to help Rand. Also what do think Rand and Tuon. Do you think they will reach an agreement? and what about Perrin or Mat. What does the pattern hold instore for them?

Finally do you think Egwene will make the white Tower whole or will her cause fail?[/quote']

 

May I suggest that you start a new thread if you want to talk about that stuff, this is about the new dreadlords after all.

[Moric]

Indeed.

 

M

[Kadere]

yeah I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I agree with Majsju, post another thread, this is all about Taim.

 

I'm not saying Taim is a Forsaken, there's WAY too much evidence pointing him NOT being a forsaken, so no I don't buy him being one. But saying he's not a DF, or least not working for the DO inadvertaintly, would be like saying Padan Fain isn't a DF cause at no point do we see him with the DO. I mean come on. That's just stupid.

 

RJ as implecated him as a suspicious character a number of times in the books, the book summaries, his blog, and conferences. Taim is in no way a good guy.

 

Just think about Min's viewings of Logain, or the colors in Taim's chamber, or the design on the door, or what's his name getting the same orders from Taim and a Forsaken. If you're right, and Taim just happened to catch the "Lord of Chaos" saying from some other darkfriend, that would mean that those darkfriends are running him, and thus he's working for the DO inadvertainly.

 

There's no way that RJ is going to build this character up as a DF for 5 books only to then turn around and go "And Taim showed up at the Last Battle with all of his Asha'man, and he helped Rand defeat all of the trollocs, and he was riding on a white horse, and despinceing goodness and justice to all the little children of the world. Yes, Taim was a good guy, and though his behavior was sometimes crazy, he was actually working for Rand the whole time. And because of Taim the world was saved! And this is why we praise his name above the Dragon Reborn, because Taim was always just and good, unlike Rand." No.... Just No. Taim's a bad guy, thus a DF, probably not a Forsaken, but DEFINATELY a DF.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Just think about Min's viewings of Logain, or the colors in Taim's chamber, or the design on the door, or what's his name getting the same orders from Taim and a Forsaken. If you're right, and Taim just happened to catch the "Lord of Chaos" saying from some other darkfriend, that would mean that those darkfriends are running him, and thus he's working for the DO inadvertainly.

 

That Taim is inadvertantly working for the Dark One is exactly what I am saying. That doesn't make him a Darkfriend just someone that is being used. They sit there, feed is ambition, and use that to manipulate him however then want. Don't forget, Darlin Sisnera and Caraline Damodred were in open rebellion against Rand, but they weren't Darkfriends. During the Ebou Dar campaign in Path of Daggers the two noble women were debating killing Rand or at the least letting him die, and they weren't Darkfriends either. All of them where inadvertantly working for the Dark One though.

 

Think about it this way. Darkfriends need to stay hidden to survive and do there job. After all, even outside of Amador, death appears to be the universal penalty. Taim is blatantly flaunting his power and position and he does not like being the number two man to the Dragon Reborn. When Taim is around, all eyes are going to be on him and watching everything he does. No one is going to notice the people that are around him, or if they do, they are going to categorize them as just trying to emmulate their teacher. They can hide right in the open.

 

As far as Fain is concerned, in my opinion he's not a Darkfriend anymore. Rand may still call him that, but the Dark One and the Foresaken have no absolutely no control. That is why Slayer is supposed to be killing him. The lack of that doesn't make him any less evil. If anything, he is more evil now than he ever was before. He's been consumed by the evil of Shadar Logoth and that evil is born of a hatred for the Dark One and Darkfriends. There isn't much of "Fain the Darkfriend" left.

[Kadere]

Think about it this way. Darkfriends need to stay hidden to survive and do there job. After all, even outside of Amador, death appears to be the universal penalty. Taim is blatantly flaunting his power and position and he does not like being the number two man to the Dragon Reborn. When Taim is around, all eyes are going to be on him and watching everything he does. No one is going to notice the people that are around him, or if they do, they are going to categorize them as just trying to emmulate their teacher. They can hide right in the open.

 

As far as Fain is concerned, in my opinion he's not a Darkfriend anymore. Rand may still call him that, but the Dark One and the Foresaken have no absolutely no control. That is why Slayer is supposed to be killing him. The lack of that doesn't make him any less evil. If anything, he is more evil now than he ever was before. He's been consumed by the evil of Shadar Logoth and that evil is born of a hatred for the Dark One and Darkfriends. There isn't much of "Fain the Darkfriend" left.

 

So by your definition you can help evil and oppose good, but this doesn't make you a darkfriend.... Sounds like a dark friend to me. Just because Shadar Harran hasn't touched you like he did Alviarin, doesn't make you any less a friend of the dark. I know I sound a little Anikan Skywalker, "If you're not with us, you're against us," but as they say "Evil wins when good people do nothing."

 

On another point, Taim is not flaunting anything! He's sitting in the Black Tower planning! No one has any idea what he's been doing for 5 books! If any dark friend where hiding behind him, they aren't doing much with it. Just sitting around and acting mysterious.

 

As for Padan Fain no longer being a dark friend.... what? He's "beyond" dark friend? How wimpy do you think the Dark One is? He's not going to let his Hound rise above him! He CONTROLS evil! He owns Padan's soul! Yes, he's above many of the other dark friends, he is more powerful now, but he's STILL acting on the DO's orders.

[Guest cwestervelt]

So by your definition you can help evil and oppose good' date=' but this doesn't make you a darkfriend.... Sounds like a dark friend to me. Just because Shadar Harran hasn't touched you like he did Alviarin, doesn't make you any less a friend of the dark. I know I sound a little Anikan Skywalker, "If you're not with us, you're against us," but as they say "Evil wins when good people do nothing."[/quote']

 

It's not my definition, but the definition of darkfriend used in the books. If, every person who's actions advanced the Dark One's cause was a Darkfriend, which appears to be your definition, about 75% if not more of the characters would be Darkfriends.

 

Pedron Niall - Was was trying to turn public oppinion against Rand to make the Whitecloaks look better. He must have been a darkfriend.

 

All of the Shaido - Look at all that killing and mistrust everywhere they caused. Definitely must be darkfriends.

 

Elaida - She was taking orders for Alviarin, so she must have been a darkfriend

 

Gawyn - Was aiding Galina and he wants to kill Rand. He must be a darkfriend

 

Read the books. The true darkfriends are few and far between. The rest are just out for their own ends.

[Kadere]

Look, I just rest my case with the epilouge of KoD. The colors, designs, the line, and the complete and utter control of the asha'men is too much to simply be coincedence.

[Loreia]

Taim not being a DF fits very well with my theory of him being "Demandred of this Age".

 

Look at Demandred in the AOL. Born the day after LTT' date=' always just one step behind LTT, which caused the jealousy that made him turn to the DO.

 

Then look at Taim. Almost the Dragon Reborn (if you look at his first meeting with Rand, where he talks about how it could have been him), he's almost as strong as Rand, the same pattern of Almost that was between Demandred and LTT.

 

Now, maybe Taim has had some contact with the Forsaken. Maybe he has turned to the DO.

But there is a possibility that he's just turned against Rand on his own, just planning to off Rand so he can get that greatness for himself.

 

It's all a big RAFO, but worth thinking about.[/quote']

 

 

You have an excellent point. I didn't really think about him being this age's Demandred. It makes sense though. I think he is definately going to play a big part in TG. I still wonder if he is connected to the BA at all...

[Guest Majsju]

Now, for the sake of arguement, lets just say that I am right, that Taim is the Demandred of this age, set up to turn on Rand like Demandred turned on LTT.

 

What would be the most effective wau for Taim to do so, the way which provided him with the greatest chance of coming out on top? Of course by joining up with someone else with the same goal of removing Rand, namely the Shadow. Now, the DO's plan for Rand seems to be pretty much anything other than killing him, but Taim could not know that, could he?

 

But on the other hand, how big is Taim's ego? If he can't accept playing second fiddle to rand, could he stand joining the shadow, where he would be even further down in the pecking order? Well, if he truely is Mr Bighead, thinking that he can raise above most of the forsaken just because he's like, totally awesome, then maybe.

[Moric]

I agree with Cwestervelt. But I'd like to add ALL Whitecloaks (okay, some of them ARE Darkfriends, but I mean as an organization).

 

They're all working against, even hating the Car'a'Carn for calling himself the Dragon Reborn and for using the One Power. They're definitely NOT all darkfriends and would probably become quite agitated if you tried to tell them they're are.

The same goes for the Seanchan (the same goes here as about the Children). They wan't to imprison and control Rand. But they're definitely not ALL darkfriends.

 

Moric of the Singing Wind Sept of the Miagoma Aiel

[Woody]

Lets just say Taim is not a DF and not trying to kill Rand, maybe he is exactly like Mensana. Completely mad. Like Mensana he thinks that only he is allowed to channel and he is going after the nearst target, Rand. The other ashaman were not sent by him, but helped his cause. Mordin sent them or another forsaken, maybe. And him saying "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule". He thinks he is the lord of Chaos and he didn't know that that was a refference to the Dark One.

 

Or maybe one of the forsken have Taim under his/her controll he does everything he/she say. The forsaken knew who was a darkfriend in the ashaman and told Taim to send them to kill Rand.

 

Or maybe against eveyones thoughts in this forum. Taim is another forsaken i.e there were two Forsaken in the Black Tower. And they din't know about each other.

[Moric]

Two Forsaken in the same place without knowing it? Possible, I guess... But not very probable. They'd both go for the real power and that'd give problems...

And as for what in roleplaying would be called "metagaming". It doesn't fit that RJ put two Forsaken in the Black Tower. It doesn't fit with the story or his kind of narrating (just like "there has to be a way out of the dungeon, the GM wouldn't make a trap that would kill us without mercy if we stumbled into it").

Not a very glamorous way of solving that problem, but there it is. ;)

 

Moric of the Singing Wind sept of the Miagoma Aiel

[Bob T Dwarf]

Sorry, Kadere, but no, Padan Fain is not a DF per se.

 

He hates the DO for what has been done to him. He blames Rand, and to a lesser extent, Perrin and Mat for why it was done. He hungers and thirsts to kill all three. Because of being an amalgam of what the DO created and the soul of Mordeth, he creates chaos around him wherever he goes. In all of those ways, his actions and his presence serve the DO's purposes.

 

But, because he both hates the DO as Fain, and utterly opposes the DO as Mordeth, he will also take any opportunity he can find to thwart the DO as well. If he were to come across any of the Forsaken, he would kill them. If he can derail any of the DO's plans he will gladly do so.

 

He is so far out from under the DO's control that Slayer has been tasked to kill him.

[Thor]

too long, too long. :P taim is definitely darkfriend. padan fain is definitely going to ghollum someone.

[Guest cwestervelt]

In case anyone even cares to do so, which I doubt, if you look Padan Fain up in the glossary to Winter's Heart you will see that he is indeed a former Darkfriend. So while my oppinion earlier that he no longer is was just my oppinion, the glossary should be acceptable as fact.

 

He's a psychotic, equal opportunity hater who would kill either the Dark One or The Dragon Reborn with equal zeal.

[Moric]

Yeah. Cwestervelt has a point there. *nods*

 

M

[dalic]

Anyone think Padan Fain bears any similarities to Gollum(sp?) from Lord of the Rings.

[Moric]

Why, of course. Severeal, as a matter of fact. And some dissimiliarities (correct spelling? yes? no?) too, of course...

 

Moric of the Singing Wind Miagoma

[The Don]

I don't know if this was brought up or not yet... but about Taim being a Darkfriend... he had orders from both Demandred AND Moridin to kill Rand. I couldn't give you an exact spot, or even book (cause I don't have them with me) but its something I clearly remember. There was an order from someone else too... I'm thinking maybe Shaidar Haran... I'm willing to bet anyone taking orders from the big 3 of the Dark is a Darkfriend.

[Guest Majsju]

I don't know if this was brought up or not yet... but about Taim being a Darkfriend... he had orders from both Demandred AND Moridin to kill Rand. I couldn't give you an exact spot' date=' or even book (cause I don't have them with me) but its something I clearly remember. There was an order from someone else too... I'm thinking maybe Shaidar Haran... I'm willing to bet anyone taking orders from the big 3 of the Dark is a Darkfriend.[/quote']

 

You got things a bit mixed up, you're thinking about a POV from one of the Asha'man who tried to kill Rand, think it's Kisman. He is thinking about recieving orders from Taim, Demandred and Moridin to kill Rand (although Moridin didn't order him to kill Rand, just "do it if you have to".)

[The Don]

oh yeah, sounds about right. I just remember Taim's name in there... well at least it pretty much takes out the Taim=Demandred theory. Unless Dem wants to confuse his followers into thinking they have 2 bosses :)