Egwene's Reign (speculation & possible spoilers)

[Durinax]

how did she earn the position? Egwene did nothing to earn the position, the criteria for whom they chose was based on strength in the power, and them being young, leaving two candidates Egwene, and Nynaeve (not really an option with her temper). It was Suian who put her on the throne. She did nothing to earn the title, she did maneuver well with a large amount of assistance to gain the power that comes with the title

My bad, I guess I should have been clearer : she earned the job after getting it, but earned it nonetheless. earned it far better than Elayne. I couldn't have imagined you were talking about hte actual title which nobody cares about and not the real job that goes with it.

ah but titles go far, and although Egwene deserved the power that went with the title, so did Elayne, she too had to maneuver to find allies, but also deal with borderlanders, civil war, darkfriends burning grain stores, along with all the additional civil duties. They just earned the power in different ways

[azrael.1289]

Everyone is all praises for Egwene reuniting the tower, but what I don't understand is if Siuan was like her and thought to hell with the DR and the rest of the world as long as the WT is whole and strong, the WT would never have been broken in the first place. It was my understanding that Siuan understood how near TG is and did what she did knowing the risks. But Egwene seems to think that the TG will wait around till the tower is whole before it begins?!? I mean for all she knew, TG could have started when she was captured in the tower.

[FarShainMael]

Perhaps it did..

 

[azrael.1289]

Perhaps it did..

 

For all she knew, it could have been over by then too :P

[FarShainMael]

:D  :D

 

(intended to insert this in previous, sorry)

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,51018.84.html

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

Everyone is all praises for Egwene reuniting the tower, but what I don't understand is if Siuan was like her and thought to hell with the DR and the rest of the world as long as the WT is whole and strong, the WT would never have been broken in the first place. It was my understanding that Siuan understood how near TG is and did what she did knowing the risks. But Egwene seems to think that the TG will wait around till the tower is whole before it begins?!? I mean for all she knew, TG could have started when she was captured in the tower.

 

It's a calculated risk. A broken White Tower comprised of warring factions and battling against itself and the Black Ajah, is completely useless to the Dragon Reborn at TG. In that role, it can only hope to shatter itself further and undermine the DR's cause, if not turn against it entirely.

 

You have to remember that this is Mesaana's purpose to being in the Tower. She's not just there to make mischief and wreck the Tower, her purpose is to destroy one of the. most. powerful. potential allies the Dragon Reborn has. The same goes for Semirhage and the Seanchan.

 

This isn't the Dragon Reborn all alone against the Shadow with his petty minions set to scurry where needed - that path leads to ruin. Powerful allies are needed to fight powerful enemies. The Last Battle demands it.

[garion]

Yeah but a whole WT wanted to bind and make the DR serve their whims.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Yeah but a whole WT wanted to bind and make the DR serve their whims.

 

Elaida was never the Amyrlin over a "whole WT" and before she broke it, the Dragon Reborn was still boogeyman and rumor. One half wanted to bind him, the other half was too busy trying to take by the WT to have much to do with him until far later.

[Durinax]

has anyone noted that the vast majority of AS plans have gone to the dogs, the only successful one I can think of was finding Rand, and Verin has a few successful ones. The rest all ended up being disastrous.

[Dreamwalker]

has anyone noted that the vast majority of AS plans have gone to the dogs, the only successful one I can think of was finding Rand, and Verin has a few successful ones. The rest all ended up being disastrous.

 

Well, I'd say a little of that could be attributed to there being so darn many BA and they seemed to know everyone's business. But not all of it, people screwed a lot of stuff up too.

[thewalrus777]

90% percent of the Aes Sedai plans failed horrendously  due to their own misguidings. There was some hampering due to the BA influence, but seriously folks, it was mainly due to Aes Sedai believing the are always right and everyone else is wrong. That kind of arrogance leads to disaster 99.99% of the time, GUARANTEED.

[azrael.1289]

Everyone is all praises for Egwene reuniting the tower, but what I don't understand is if Siuan was like her and thought to hell with the DR and the rest of the world as long as the WT is whole and strong, the WT would never have been broken in the first place. It was my understanding that Siuan understood how near TG is and did what she did knowing the risks. But Egwene seems to think that the TG will wait around till the tower is whole before it begins?!? I mean for all she knew, TG could have started when she was captured in the tower.

 

It's a calculated risk. A broken White Tower comprised of warring factions and battling against itself and the Black Ajah, is completely useless to the Dragon Reborn at TG. In that role, it can only hope to shatter itself further and undermine the DR's cause, if not turn against it entirely.

 

You have to remember that this is Mesaana's purpose to being in the Tower. She's not just there to make mischief and wreck the Tower, her purpose is to destroy one of the. most. powerful. potential allies the Dragon Reborn has. The same goes for Semirhage and the Seanchan.

 

This isn't the Dragon Reborn all alone against the Shadow with his petty minions set to scurry where needed - that path leads to ruin. Powerful allies are needed to fight powerful enemies. The Last Battle demands it.

I totally agree that a whole WT supporting Rand would have been immensely helpful to him in the beginning. But with TG knocking on the door, what difference does it really make?

Egwene had a choice to either use the AS she had to help prepare the world for TG or use it to unite the tower. I don't see how her choosing to unite the tower is worth the risk that the shadow could win by the time it is achieved.

[thewalrus777]

Everyone is all praises for Egwene reuniting the tower, but what I don't understand is if Siuan was like her and thought to hell with the DR and the rest of the world as long as the WT is whole and strong, the WT would never have been broken in the first place. It was my understanding that Siuan understood how near TG is and did what she did knowing the risks. But Egwene seems to think that the TG will wait around till the tower is whole before it begins?!? I mean for all she knew, TG could have started when she was captured in the tower.

 

It's a calculated risk. A broken White Tower comprised of warring factions and battling against itself and the Black Ajah, is completely useless to the Dragon Reborn at TG. In that role, it can only hope to shatter itself further and undermine the DR's cause, if not turn against it entirely.

 

You have to remember that this is Mesaana's purpose to being in the Tower. She's not just there to make mischief and wreck the Tower, her purpose is to destroy one of the. most. powerful. potential allies the Dragon Reborn has. The same goes for Semirhage and the Seanchan.

 

This isn't the Dragon Reborn all alone against the Shadow with his petty minions set to scurry where needed - that path leads to ruin. Powerful allies are needed to fight powerful enemies. The Last Battle demands it.

I totally agree that a whole WT supporting Rand would have been immensely helpful to him in the beginning. But with TG knocking on the door, what difference does it really make?

Egwene had a choice to either use the AS she had to help prepare the world for TG or use it to unite the tower. I don't see how her choosing to unite the tower is worth the risk that the shadow could win by the time it is achieved.

 

You need a united WT because it represents a major ally to have in gaining other nation's support. And besides it does Rand no good to have the largest organization of channelers at each others throats. He needs that organization to be back to full health, because he needs every capable channeler he can get for TG.

[azrael.1289]

You need a united WT because it represents a major ally to have in gaining other nation's support. And besides it does Rand no good to have the largest organization of channelers at each others throats. He needs that organization to be back to full health, because he needs every capable channeler he can get for TG.

As I said this would be true in the beginning of the series, but now that TG is so near, there is no time to gain any new nation's support united WT or not. It's too late for all that now. And for all she knew it could have been even later?!?!?

[thewalrus777]

You need a united WT because it represents a major ally to have in gaining other nation's support. And besides it does Rand no good to have the largest organization of channelers at each others throats. He needs that organization to be back to full health, because he needs every capable channeler he can get for TG.

As I said this would be true in the beginning of the series, but now that TG is so near, there is no time to gain any new nation's support united WT or not. It's too late for all that now. And for all she knew it could have been even later?!?!?

 

Even if it doesn't get him any other allegiances, he still has to have those channelers available to him. And he wouldn't of had that option if the Tower isn't healed. He needed it whole again so he could have their full attention on TG. Egwene knew this as well. That's why she never stopped trying to right the wrong that had occured. The Aes Sedai are a pivotal group for the LB.

[azrael.1289]

Even if it doesn't get him any other allegiances, he still has to have those channelers available to him. And he wouldn't of had that option if the Tower isn't healed. He needed it whole again so he could have their full attention on TG. Egwene knew this as well. That's why she never stopped trying to right the wrong that had occured. The Aes Sedai are a pivotal group for the LB.

He has to have channelers available to him? Does this not mean that she should have made the more than half AS that are already with her help him instead of trying to unite the WT which could have happened too late?

How the hell could Egwene have known that the attention of the whole WT would be on TG when she doesn't even know when it will begin? By the time she united the tower, the time where Rand COULD have used the channelers help could have already come and gone.

And what makes AS a pivotal group in TG? They are just a bunch of arrogant people who think they know better than everyone else about everything just because they can channel. I mean, if the Seanchan and all their army join Rand, AS become almost irrelevant now.

And I haven't read anywhere that the reason she wants a united WT is because it will be more useful for Rand in TG. For all we know, it could be because she wants AS position to remain strong after TG as evidenced by her repeated assertions that she wants every female channeler connected to the WT.

 

[Eht Slat Meit]

He has to have channelers available to him? Does this not mean that she should have made the more than half AS that are already with her help him instead of trying to unite the WT which could have happened too late?

 

It's not about having channelers for the sake of having channelers. He already has THAT. It's about having the White Tower. Let's face it - the Rebels did not constitute the White Tower. They were a fragment of the Tower, not even half of it, and they were KNOWN (by Egwene) to be infiltrated by the Black Ajah.

 

Egwene, as an untested and unproven leader, had to fight simply to get the sisters to war against the WT. She's not a ta'veren. How much success do you think she would have had getting the sisters to swear to the cause of the Dragon? The Gathering Storm is Egwene's proving ground, this is what will MAKE the WT see her as Amyrlin and follow her call to join the Dragon at the Last Battle. She could never have pulled it off before....

 

How the hell could Egwene have known that the attention of the whole WT would be on TG when she doesn't even know when it will begin? By the time she united the tower, the time where Rand COULD have used the channelers help could have already come and gone.

 

... but she couldn't have known and that's the point. She had nothing, absolutely nothing, to work with before. She didn't have half the Tower, and she barely had the Rebels. She created something new, and because of it she won the whole Tower to fight the Last Battle.

 

And what makes AS a pivotal group in TG? They are just a bunch of arrogant people who think they know better than everyone else about everything just because they can channel.

 

The same prophecies that call Rand the Dragon make the AS pivotal force. The Tower had to be broken for exactly that reason. The AS pride meant that the Tower could never serve the Dragon. Broken and remade, it can.

 

And I haven't read anywhere that the reason she wants a united WT is because it will be more useful for Rand in TG. For all we know, it could be because she wants AS position to remain strong after TG as evidenced by her repeated assertions that she wants every female channeler connected to the WT.

 

Re-read Knife of Dreams. She comments on it repeatedly that the Tower must be whole to fight at the Last Battle. Keep in mind that she's doing what a good long-term leader should. Looking to the future beyond the Last Battle. The Dragon's only role is for TG. The Amyrlin must see further.

 

[azrael.1289]

None of the prophecies mention AS at all except perphaps to say that thay will kneel in front of the DR. Their role in TG is not described in any prophecy and hence their importance is an educated guess at best.

Again...why is the WT united or not of any importance at all to Rand now? It would be important had there been time. But with TG so close the ramifications of an united tower has no effect on the grand scheme of things.

 

And if Egwene could use her bullying, threatening, blackmailing, manipulations etc. to convince SAS to lay siege to a place they almost hold sacred, I think she could have convinced them to help Rand if her mind was in it.

 

Looking at the future beyond TG? I mean there may not be a future at all. The shadow came this close to suceeding when Rand almost destroyed the world. She should concentrate more on how the world can survive TG before worrying about where AS will stand if and when they survive TG atleast IMHO.

[Eht Slat Meit]

None of the prophecies mention AS at all except perphaps to say that thay will kneel in front of the DR. Their role in TG is not described in any prophecy and hence their importance is an educated guess at best.

 

Both the Karaethon Cycle and the Jendi prophecies, as a matter of fact. "What is exalted is cast down; what is cast down is raised up." Part of the verse regarding the White Tower being broken and kneeling before him. Just happens to -perfectly- fit the prophecies. From that, we either take away that like Rand, they have a role to play at TG, raised up after being cast down, to serve him. I don't see how you can dismiss that as irrelevant or unimportant.

 

Again...why is the WT united or not of any importance at all to Rand now? It would be important had there been time. But with TG so close the ramifications of an united tower has no effect on the grand scheme of things.

 

It is not ours to question why; the prophecies say it will be so and it is. They are to serve him, and they will not do it as slaves.

 

And if Egwene could use her bullying, threatening, blackmailing, manipulations etc. to convince SAS to lay siege to a place they almost hold sacred, I think she could have convinced them to help Rand if her mind was in it.

 

Elaida destroyed the sacred esteem in which the sisters held the Tower by bringing death to the grounds. Keep in mind that while Egwene has displayed some skills at manipulation, she would have had to overcome the sisters fear of the Black Tower (something she was unable to do, they did it in her absence) and fight Elaida's destructive influence at every turn. She'd have lost and there'd have been no future.

 

[azrael.1289]

 

Both the Karaethon Cycle and the Jendi prophecies, as a matter of fact. "What is exalted is cast down; what is cast down is raised up." Part of the verse regarding the White Tower being broken and kneeling before him. Just happens to -perfectly- fit the prophecies. From that, we either take away that like Rand, they have a role to play at TG, raised up after being cast down, to serve him. I don't see how you can dismiss that as irrelevant or unimportant.

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

 

 

It is not ours to question why; the prophecies say it will be so and it is. They are to serve him, and they will not do it as slaves.

They after all this are still not even prepared to trust him. How will they help him let alone serve him without changing that attitude?

 

 

Elaida destroyed the sacred esteem in which the sisters held the Tower by bringing death to the grounds. Keep in mind that while Egwene has displayed some skills at manipulation, she would have had to overcome the sisters fear of the Black Tower (something she was unable to do, they did it in her absence) and fight Elaida's destructive influence at every turn. She'd have lost and there'd have been no future.

 

I think she could have had she tried. My gripe is she did not even think about it. It's like one second she wants AS to help Rand before she became Amrylin and then the next when she is Amrylin, she almost forgets about everything else and puts all her and the SAS's efforts into something that she had no idea at that point would even be helpful to Rand.

[yoniy0]

The prophecy mentions events leading up to TG, not what role the WT plays in it. No where in the prophecy says anything about the WT being important for Rand to win TG.

Everything in the Dragon Prophecies has to come true for the Light to have a chance at the Last Battle. You don't know how every little detail will turn out to be important, but you know that it WILL turn out that way.

 

They after all this are still not even prepared to trust him. How will they help him let alone serve him without changing that attitude?

RAFO. Really, if you still don't know by the end of AMoL, then I'll entertain the possibility that they won't. But somehow I doubt it.

 

Plus, you're only thinking of how the Tower could help Rand. Think of what it could do for the Shadow, should Egwene have left it to Aran'gar and Mesaana. Remember Mesaana's boast in the prologue of TGS.

 

[azrael.1289]

RAFO. Really, if you still don't know by the end of AMoL, then I'll entertain the possibility that they won't. But somehow I doubt it.

I know they will. But I would have preferred had the change happened somewhat earlier like in 10/11 book. 13th book is a tat too late for me.

 

Plus, you're only thinking of how the Tower could help Rand. Think of what it could do for the Shadow, should Egwene have left it to Aran'gar and Mesaana. Remember Mesaana's boast in the prologue of TGS.

I know her actions have done a lot of good now. But Egwene had no idea about any of this when she set about laying siege on TV. For all she knew, she chose to unite WT instead of helping the world and Rand prepare for TG.

 

[Aquarius]

I know her actions have done a lot of good now. But Egwene had no idea about any of this when she set about laying siege on TV. For all she knew, she chose to unite WT instead of helping the world and Rand prepare for TG.

 

"instead" is what's wrong here. She didn't have a choice here. In her situation, her only way to make a difference for TG is to bring a strong Tower for the Light's side. "helping the world nand Rand prepare for TG" by herself, or with just her fraction of the Tower is meaningless. There's no contradiction. A strong Tower is exactly what she CAN do to "help the world and Rand prepare for TG".

[azrael.1289]

"instead" is what's wrong here. She didn't have a choice here. In her situation, her only way to make a difference for TG is to bring a strong Tower for the Light's side. "helping the world nand Rand prepare for TG" by herself, or with just her fraction of the Tower is meaningless. There's no contradiction. A strong Tower is exactly what she CAN do to "help the world and Rand prepare for TG".

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. See, I think that Egwene and the AS with her(more than half if I remeber correctly) would have been far from useless for Rand. Infact if Rand and Egwene had worked together after she became Amrylin, so many problems could have been handled much better.

 

[Ataxia]

I like to give Egwene the benefit of the doubt. I think she does care about Rand and will fight by his side at the final confrontation, even if the rest of the Aes Sedai wont(I think shell get them to though). However, one of my problems is how she wants to punish Nynaeve for "running" off with Rand. I mean, seriously? Egwene becomes full blown Aes Sedai to the core as soon as she finds out she can become one, but Nynaeve sticks to her roots. I just dont get why she feels the need to punish her. Maybe shes envious?