A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Sharaman]

Is there any reason Mesaana couldn't simply be one of those women petitioners who wants to see the Amyrlin?  At least with Alviarin still as keeper she could've kept herself in limbo waiting for quite a while with some made up story that isn't cause for urgency, but perhaps valid enough for her to remain there.  Hanging out in the library or something.

 

Both RJ and Brandon have said that we have enough information to identify Mesaana by end of CoT.

That means her secret ID has been mentioned with enough detail thrown in to correlate with what is known of her actions and appearances. We don't have that level of information about any non-AS in the Tower - in fact, we have very little info about most non-AS in the tower. 

So she's not Non-AS.

 

 

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

Guessing who Mesaana is would be like guessing who Asmodean's killer is. Yes, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson say we have enough information to figure it out, but that's easy to say when you already know the answer. No doubt we'll think it was obvious after we learn her identity but that doesn't make it so.

 

Mesaana would not have allowed herself to be bound by the three oaths. This is not something a forsaken would do. She would have fled if she would otherwise be forced to take the oaths and be bound. If she took the oaths and had an extra rod in her back pocket so she could immediately remove them, she still would not take them. There's way too great a risk involved. Not just discovery but in being dealt with by a rival forsaken or even by Rand in the meantime. She would be a sitting duck in a tower full of people who want to kill her. Faced with the option of taking those 3 oaths and risking death or exposure (and then death) or fleeing and gathering the Black Ajah to recover some of what she just lost.. she would flee the tower. If she is still in the White Tower then she obviously did not face the binding effect of the oath rod.

 

Further, "there is a way to evade the oath rod" more than implies that there is a way to evade it. It doesn't say "she took the oaths and did the generic Aes Sedai back pedaling to get what she wants." We should be looking for ways to beat the oath rod itself, not the individual oaths. If you are bound you did not beat the oath rod. It beat you. So the only possibility is holding the rod, speaking the oaths while channeling into it and not having the oaths take hold.

 

It could be a simple mask of mirrors trick. It'd probably be easy enough to do, but I still prefer my idea that she bugged the rod by using an inverted spirit flow while spirit touched it the normal way. It would essentially be telling the rod to do two conflicting things at once and it would crash, so to speak, and do neither.

[Casabamelon]

Guessing who Mesaana is would be like guessing who Asmodean's killer is.

 

Not really, unless you really just mean guessing and not using reason and logic. You should read the Mesaana thread. They've got her pretty well nailed down.

[mb]

Not really assume; but after considering the likely precautions (placed on every participant), that seems the most likely.

And that's where you lose people. That is an assumption, regardless of how you phrase it.

But it is a different assumption.

The assumption being that they took precautions, not necessarily that she believed it.

 

All of us have some assumption; it would not be possible to assume nothing and have an opinion.

 

[Hadilmir]

I assume nothing!

[mb]

I assume nothing!

The following quote contains/implies assumptions.

 

To quote Vlad Taltos, "No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style."

"No matter how clever the assassin, a trap within a trap disguised as a trap will seriously foil his plans."

 

-Egwene knows Mesaana is in the Tower.

-Egwene isn't half as arrogant as Elayne.

-Egwene has full access to angreal, Mesaana has no access.

 

Knowing Mesaana is in the Tower, Egwene is likely carrying an angreal with her at all times and certainly plotting Mesaana's destruction. If Elayne were Amyrlin (Light forbid that ever happens) then I'd agree with Vlad, but Egwene isn't the cliche'd wizard.

 

I still think Mesaana is going to survive the Last Battle, but she isn't going to kill Egwene on the way.

 

[Hadilmir]

You are strong in the humorless, young padawan.

[sumquy]

Getting around the swearing on the oath rod would have been easy for Mesanna. Assuming she is disguised as an Aes Sedai, she hears what is going on in the Salidar camp the same as all the BA did, so she changes her disguise to some random common woman and lays low for a few days. Once things in the tower become settled she could kidnap/replace an Aes Sedai that had already sworn, or not. She could change her disguise on a regular basis.

[Dreamwalker]

Getting around the swearing on the oath rod would have been easy for Mesanna. Assuming she is disguised as an Aes Sedai, she hears what is going on in the Salidar camp the same as all the BA did, so she changes her disguise to some random common woman and lays low for a few days. Once things in the tower become settled she could kidnap/replace an Aes Sedai that had already sworn, or not. She could change her disguise on a regular basis.

 

Except that Egwene would notice that they're missing an AS - at the end of tGS she has a list of all missing/unaccounted for AS, so one of those would have to have been Mesaana's original (pre-purge) alter ego - and I think Egwene as well as most of us are pretty sure that none of those on that list was Mesaana's disguise.

[sumquy]

Except that Egwene would notice that they're missing an AS - at the end of tGS she has a list of all missing/unaccounted for AS, so one of those would have to have been Mesaana's original (pre-purge) alter ego

 

That is correct.

 

and I think Egwene as well as most of us are pretty sure that none of those on that list was Mesaana's disguise.

 

I have no idea where you got that idea from.

[Paerish Swar]

Except that Egwene would notice that they're missing an AS - at the end of tGS she has a list of all missing/unaccounted for AS, so one of those would have to have been Mesaana's original (pre-purge) alter ego

 

That is correct.

 

and I think Egwene as well as most of us are pretty sure that none of those on that list was Mesaana's disguise.

 

I have no idea where you got that idea from.

 

Here's the quote:

The Gathering Storm: Epilogue - Bathed in Light.  Egwene's POV

 

That left the three names on the list in front of Egwene.  Nalasia Merhan, a Brown; Termina, a Green; and Jamilila Norsish, a Red . . . It seemed implausible that Mesaana had been impersonating one of them and doing it so well that her subterfuge hadn't been noticed . . .

 

Egwene had a feeling.  A premonition, perhaps.  At the very least, a fear.  These three names were the only ones who could have been the Forsaken.  But none of them fit, not at all.  That gave her a chill.  Was Mesaana still hiding in the Tower?

 

Also, BS and RJ said that we had enough info to figure out who Mesaana is by CoT.  None of those three women were ever really on scene between tSR and CoT.  BS also commented once that Egwene's reasoning was not incorrect, for what that's worth.  

 

Dreamwalker, I believe, is correct.  

[Durinax]

how does egwene know those three AS well enough that she can confidently say that those three cannot be mesaana

[DemandredFO]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but as to the replacement theory, pretty sure Danelle, who most think is Mesaana, was seen swearing.  So it's unlikely that Mesaana disregarded a persona, it's also likely that Mesaana was some in the room when Suian was taken.

[sumquy]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but as to the replacement theory, pretty sure Danelle, who most think is Mesaana, was seen swearing.

 

The only real evidence that Mesaana is/was Danelle is RJ's comment that we should be able figure out who she is by some book or another. Considering other RJ pronouncements, I don't really count that as evidence. This is a man who told us that Asmodean's killer should be "obvious". Personally, I think RJ had a lot of fun with statements like that.

 

it's also likely that Mesaana was some in the room when Suian was taken

 

Again, I don't know where you get that from. The only times we've seen her she was manipulating those in power, not wielding power herself. Ironically, considering the statement I just made, I think she is Tsutama, but I don't have any evidence of that. Just a hunch.

 

BS also commented once that Egwene's reasoning was not incorrect, for what that's worth

 

What he said was that she could swear she wasn't a darkfriend if she truly believed that she wasn't. He specifically answered the question that was asked, but he did not say that she had sworn anything on that rod.

[Duskfire]

how does egwene know those three AS well enough that she can confidently say that those three cannot be mesaana

 

Because they are all extremely weak in the power and have been at the Whitetower for years. It would be hard for Mesaana to pretend to be someone who was known by quite a few people. We saw the problem Halima had when she claimed to know Cabriana, and thats her just claiming she knew her.

[Casabamelon]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but as to the replacement theory, pretty sure Danelle, who most think is Mesaana, was seen swearing.

 

The only real evidence that Mesaana is/was Danelle is RJ's comment that we should be able figure out who she is by some book or another. Considering other RJ pronouncements, I don't really count that as evidence. This is a man who told us that Asmodean's killer should be "obvious". Personally, I think RJ had a lot of fun with statements like that.

 

Except it's not the same. RJ ALSO said that we should be able to figure out the Asmodean murder by such-and-such book, which means that anyone introduced AFTER said book cannot be the murder BY DEFAULT. So even an "Aes Sedai" style answer can provide useful information.

[Sharaman]

Brandon corroborated that in his opinion, there was enough evidence to deduce Mesaana's secret ID.

I don't think RJ would have made either statement (Asmo or Messi) without having written in zero evidence.

In the Asmo case, there's an excess of suspects and too much detail, which confuses the issue.

 

We actually have less in the way of textual detail about Messi. 

1) We know she's been in the Tower at least since TDR (Verin met her twice before leaving for the Two Rivers).

But we only learn this in TGS -- according to RJ and Brandon, her id can be deduced post-CoT.

2) We have the various Alviarin- meeting descriptions of her appearance, clothes and masking

3) We have Messi's vibes with the other Chosen at their several meetings.

4) We have Sheriam's meeting in the rebel camp

 

That makes it much easier to narrow down suspects.

How many non-AS in the Tower have been described in any details that you can match?

Zero, except for Laras, where the details don't match.

Plus, you have Graendal's PoV.

So it has to be an AS.

If you don't like Danielle for whatever reason, find another AS as prime suspect.

 

We haven't IIRC, seen any of the White Tower AS re-swearing. Even in the rebel camp, we're only described Romanda and Lelaine reswearing. The rest is offscreen.

 

 

[Aquarius]

Don't know if this has been mentioned but as to the replacement theory, pretty sure Danelle, who most think is Mesaana, was seen swearing.

 

The only real evidence that Mesaana is/was Danelle is RJ's comment that we should be able figure out who she is by some book or another. Considering other RJ pronouncements, I don't really count that as evidence. This is a man who told us that Asmodean's killer should be "obvious". Personally, I think RJ had a lot of fun with statements like that.

 

Except it's not the same. RJ ALSO said that we should be able to figure out the Asmodean murder by such-and-such book, which means that anyone introduced AFTER said book cannot be the murder BY DEFAULT. So even an "Aes Sedai" style answer can provide useful information.

I may have misunderstood, but I think Duskfire was saying that those statements by RJ were just lies, and funny ones at that (for RJ). And I tend to agree, at least partially.

[mb]

Guessing who Mesaana is would be like guessing who Asmodean's killer is. Yes, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson say we have enough information to figure it out, but that's easy to say when you already know the answer. No doubt we'll think it was obvious after we learn her identity but that doesn't make it so.

So far the books have not contradicted anything Robert Jordan told.  I doubt Robert Jordan would lie about his own series.

 

Mesaana would not have allowed herself to be bound by the three oaths. This is not something a forsaken would do. She would have fled if she would otherwise be forced to take the oaths and be bound. If she took the oaths and had an extra rod in her back pocket so she could immediately remove them, she still would not take them. There's way too great a risk involved. Not just discovery but in being dealt with by a rival forsaken or even by Rand in the meantime. She would be a sitting duck in a tower full of people who want to kill her. Faced with the option of taking those 3 oaths and risking death or exposure (and then death) or fleeing and gathering the Black Ajah to recover some of what she just lost.. she would flee the tower. If she is still in the White Tower then she obviously did not face the binding effect of the oath rod.

Where & how would Mesaana have gotten the extra rod?  The only oath rods know to characters I take are the White Tower's and the Shaido's.  Both I take have been tightly guarded.

And even if Mesaana had an extra rod besides the 2 (or at least besides the White Tower's), she would have needed to wait till she was alone to bring it out; otherwise it would have raised suspicions.

All participants I take were bound when they told they were not darkfriends.

 

Further, "there is a way to evade the oath rod" more than implies that there is a way to evade it. It doesn't say "she took the oaths and did the generic Aes Sedai back pedaling to get what she wants." We should be looking for ways to beat the oath rod itself, not the individual oaths. If you are bound you did not beat the oath rod. It beat you. So the only possibility is holding the rod, speaking the oaths while channeling into it and not having the oaths take hold.

Sanderson did not explicitly say that Mesaana evaded the rod.  Until Sanderson clarifies, his comments would be no more than a matter of interpretation.

The other methods have not been tested on-screen in the books.  Until the books show and/or until Sanderson confirms/denies any of them, they shall be just theory.

 

It could be a simple mask of mirrors trick. It'd probably be easy enough to do, but I still prefer my idea that she bugged the rod by using an inverted spirit flow while spirit touched it the normal way. It would essentially be telling the rod to do two conflicting things at once and it would crash, so to speak, and do neither.

All participants were likely shielded as a precaution.  If so, Mesaana would not been able to do any channeling.

And previously, the rod was likely in the possession of the Black Ajah hunters.  Thus she would have been unable to bug it.

 

[MikeRiley]

Guessing who Mesaana is would be like guessing who Asmodean's killer is. Yes, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson say we have enough information to figure it out, but that's easy to say when you already know the answer. No doubt we'll think it was obvious after we learn her identity but that doesn't make it so.

So far the books have not contradicted anything Robert Jordan told.  I doubt Robert Jordan would lie about his own series.

 

I did not say he lied, nor did I say the information wasn't there. Think of it like a riddle, look at it the wrong way once and you probably won't solve it. Once you know the solution you'll believe it was very easy. Sanderson and Jordan know who Asmodean's killer is and who Mesaana is disguised as. They know where the clues are and can say "Yes, the clues are there." That does not change that nobody's going to figure it out for sure before it's fully revealed. It plain and simple is not possible without insider information. The clues are all there but we don't know where to look and we still have to base things on assumption that both Sanderson and Jordan don't need confirmed for themselves.

 

Where & how would Mesaana have gotten the extra rod?  The only oath rods know to characters I take are the White Tower's and the Shaido's.  Both I take have been tightly guarded.

And even if Mesaana had an extra rod besides the 2 (or at least besides the White Tower's), she would have needed to wait till she was alone to bring it out; otherwise it would have raised suspicions.

All participants I take were bound when they told they were not darkfriends.

 

Re-read the part you were responding to. I said "even if she had one she still wouldn't take the oaths." I did not say she had an oath rod, nor was I suggesting she had access to a second one. I was saying even if she could immediately remove those oaths through the use of a second oath rod she still would not do so because of the massive risk involved during the tiny time frame in which she was still bound.

 

Sanderson did not explicitly say that Mesaana evaded the rod.  Until Sanderson clarifies, his comments would be no more than a matter of interpretation.

The other methods have not been tested on-screen in the books.  Until the books show and/or until Sanderson confirms/denies any of them, they shall be just theory.

 

I disagree. There is a huge difference in "evading the oath rod" and "evading the oaths." "There is a way", Sanderson told us. We already know there is a way to evade the oaths themselves. It's called lying by omission. Sanderson wasn't telling us the sky is blue, he was telling us we should be thinking of something else.

 

All participants were likely shielded as a precaution.  If so, Mesaana would not been able to do any channeling.

And previously, the rod was likely in the possession of the Black Ajah hunters.  Thus she would have been unable to bug it.

 

Supposition that they were shielded. The first Aes Sedai we see re-take the oaths were not shielded and there's no reason they would add an extra insult to having to swear them over again. They were all prepared to stop any sister that tried to run. Mesaana would also not allow herself to be shielded. Her pride would get in the way almost as much as her sense that it would be really, really, really stupid to let her enemies shield her while she was running a disguise that relied on the power. You can tie that weave off but anything can happen and she would not put herself in that position.

 

My suggestion that Mesaana bugged the oath rod does not require that it be done beforetime, nor would it work if it happened that way. It would require for Mesaana to simply channel an inverted spirit weave into a different part of the rod while she was channeling the spirit into the proper part for taking the oaths. This would be giving conflicting instructions to the oath rod, activating both parts and would in a sense shut it down. Of course that's supposition too.

[michael1941]

i think she evaded the oaths because she isnt a dark friend, shes one of the chosen which makes her be able to lie since she believes that she isnt a darkfriend but something better than that

[MikeRiley]

That's evading one oath, but what about the other two?

[farthammer]

Use the fact that that one oath is the only oath AS use to verify you're not a DF to buy enough time to go ahead and remove the oaths using the oath rod or whichever way black ajah have been using. 

[Fains nose]

I just dont see any way Mesaana took the oaths unless she was directly ordered to by Shaidar Haran or Moridin to help her blend in more. IMO theres no way she took the oaths

[johthohar]

Personally, I think Lucker's theory of using the mask of mirrors and compulsion is the most likely.

 

Another way she might have done it, although I find it highly unlikely, (Also, sorry if this theory was already put forward. I am new to the Forums and didn't have time to read the whole thread) is to simply stop imitating whoever she was posing as and pose as another AS who had already resworn the oaths. One major hole in this theory, however, is that she would have to take the time to learn that person's history, mannerisms, etc. Thought I'd put it out there for discussion anyway though.