A Way to Evade the Oaths (Full Spoilers)

[Tom Sawyer]

 

I am pretty sure the BA hunters had it and not Mesanna though.  I don't think that Brandon was referring to modifying the oath rod with his statement, but instead a process/way to bypass/beat it's system as it currently stands.

 

Ya, what I got from his quote was that it was a logical puzzle to be solved, not a case of making up some random magic which happens to beat it.

 

[Druugan]

We know that the person being bound has to hold the Oath Rod in order for it to work.  It seems that contact with the skin is likely necessary.  What if she wore a "glove" of air, inverted weave obviously, so that it appeared that she was holding it... but without any actual contact?

[Casabamelon]

I think it would be much simpler for Mesaana to use a hidden weave and put another flow of spirit to cause the oath rod to both apply an oath and take it off at the same time so to speak.

 

I think thats the way to beat it. Use two flows of spirit so that the oath rod is conflicting with itself thus it would be disabled while everyone thought it was working

 

thats the fundamental flaw with the oath rod it can be used to both enforce oaths and to remove them, with a very simple weave of spirit. Thus overloading the Oath Rod is easy to accomplish, especially if the person who is taking the oaths is allowed to hold onto saidar.

 

I can't say I remember anyone suggesting that before. It would make perfect sense. Channel one end to make the oath, the other end to break the oath. Wait... we should have had a POV about the BA Hunters removing their oaths. Anyone have that handy?

 

It'd definately be simple and straight forward with a thread of inverted spirit.

[Tom Sawyer]

I think it depends on the wording that they make people use during the test.  If she says "I am not Black Ajah", then that's true, since she's not part of the Black Ajah.  If she says "I am not a Darkfriend", then that may be true, since Forsaken don't seem to consider themselves Darkfriends but a group unto themselves.  With the latter, however, there is the chance of the sentence catching in her throat if she starts thinking about how close to the line that's cutting things.  I think at least some of the people reswearing the Oath used the former, however.

 

[Aquarius]

I think it depends on the wording that they make people use during the test.  If she says "I am not Black Ajah", then that's true, since she's not part of the Black Ajah.  If she says "I am not a Darkfriend", then that may be true, since Forsaken don't seem to consider themselves Darkfriends but a group unto themselves.  With the latter, however, there is the chance of the sentence catching in her throat if she starts thinking about how close to the line that's cutting things.  I think at least some of the people reswearing the Oath used the former, however.

 

The whole thread, from the very begining, was about that choice : either you believe in the most simple and belivable solution: she "beat" the oath rod by really believing she's not DF and not BA and took her time to remove the oaths after. Many (most?) people believe this. Or you believe there's a very complex scheme involving special weaves, inverted gloves of whatever, double-think, foreign language, TelAranRiod or whatever, that allowed Messaana to swear to the Oath Rod and not be bound by it.

[StefanR]

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

 

Not beat one oath and then remove the rest, but beat the whole rod, as in: the oaths didn't actually bind Mesanna

 

Brandon's answer dispels the whole "i'm not a darkfriend, i'm a chosen" argument right there

[mb]

I doubt Mesaana modified the Oath Rod in any way at any time.

Even if Mesaana had such skill (and enough time to do it), obtaining the Oath Rod might have been difficult for her especially after the hunters obtained it.

Also, any modification likely would have raised suspicions; and it would have been quick to narrow down the suspect/suspects.

 

It being with the hunters seems to have turned out correct.  The books I think would have told if it was away from them.

 

 

Like I posted before, I doubt Mesaana did any kind channeling trick.

Each Aes Sedia present I take was watched by at least one non-Black.  Some watcher of each I guess was the one that did the channeling.  Each Aes Sedia probably was also shielded.  Not much chance of doing channeling tricks through those.

I take Mesaana was bound to the 3 Oaths when she told that she was not a darkfriend.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

 

Not beat one oath and then remove the rest, but beat the whole rod, as in: the oaths didn't actually bind Mesanna

 

Brandon's answer dispels the whole "i'm not a darkfriend, i'm a chosen" argument right there

 

The statement needs to be taken in context, though.  You can't just take the one part of the sentence and ignore everything around it which describes what that part means.  Beating the Oath Rod means beating the test they give to see if any of the people who take it are Darkfriends, which only tests the first oath.  That's the key thing that needs to have a way around it.

[Aquarius]

Brandon's answer dispels the whole "i'm not a darkfriend, i'm a chosen" argument right there

then we'll have to agree to disagree :) ... which is all the fun of a WoT forum, after all. THat Q&A doesn't dispels anything as far as I'm concerned. She DID beat the OR by not beeing caught by it, whatever the means.

... this doesn't mean that your understanding isn't the right one, we'll just have to RAFO.

[Wingendosering]

Personally, I took it to be a simple method of phrasing.  We're told over and over again that Aes Sedai can talk their way out of any conversation without promising anything, so that's what I assumed was done.

 

Egwene's quote, which all the other Aes Sedai say, is: "I am no Darkfriend."

 

Mesaana could have simply meant: "I am no [mere] Darkfriend."

 

That's enough in my opinion.

 

I also suspected the double spirit weave, through use of a well so nobody would see the glow of the power around her.

 

We also have to think about what actually makes the Oaths binding.  Does the Oath bind you in what you think you're swearing or does it bind you based on the actual words you used?  For instance, an AS might think "OOOhh, finally, everybody knows I can't lie" as she swears, so her oath becomes I cannot tell a lie, even though that wasn't the wording of her vow.

 

Mesanna, could simply think of it as, I will only speak true words, in other words, if Darkfriend is an accepted word, she can use it.

[MikeRiley]

3. Question: She could swear that she’s not a Darkfriend on the Oath Rod, right?

 

3. Answer: As long as she believed it to be true.  Every remaining Aes Sedai in the Tower has retaken the three oaths.  You should be thinking about ways to defeat the Oath Rod.  There is a way to do it.

 

 

Not beat one oath and then remove the rest, but beat the whole rod, as in: the oaths didn't actually bind Mesanna

 

Brandon's answer dispels the whole "i'm not a darkfriend, i'm a chosen" argument right there

 

The statement needs to be taken in context, though.  You can't just take the one part of the sentence and ignore everything around it which describes what that part means.  Beating the Oath Rod means beating the test they give to see if any of the people who take it are Darkfriends, which only tests the first oath.  That's the key thing that needs to have a way around it.

 

It's not ignoring the first part. This could be correctly paraphrased like this:

 

Q: If she was bound by the oaths, she could swear she wasn't a darkfriend, right?

A: Well, yes, but you should be looking for ways to defeat the oath rod. There is a way to do it.

 

The first line of his sentence was answering the question. The second part was saying the questioner was not really on the right track.

 

 

There is no reason to believe Mesaana allowed herself to be bound by the oath rod. This is completely against her character. I doubt she'd do it with a direct order from the Dark One. Consider the other two oaths, not just the one against lying. Those wouldn't just be a hindrance to her, they would be lethal.

[mb]

I am not sure about allowing herself to be bound being 'completely' against her character.  If she was told before the event, she probably felt confident about her cover not being blown.  Yet if she fled instead of stay, that might cast suspicion on whomever was her alias.

I am not sure either about the 2nd and 3rd oaths being lethal for her.  Since she managed pretending for about a year, she might be able to bear the actual thing; at least long enough to tell that she is not a darkfriend and/or long enough to be alone with the rod, I doubt any sooner than either.

 

 

Egwene probably had each Aes Sedia be watched by at least one non-Black which probably included shielding and another doing the channeling.

The best way for Mesaana to entirely avoid those precautions would be to flee.  Sanderson seemed to imply that Mesaana stayed; thus she was bound to the oaths when she told that she was not a darkfriend.

 

How to evade any oath, I think by believing something seemingly contradictory to the oath.  A number of the other theories speculated about in this thread (mainly the ones involving channeling); if possible and if she had enough time, those might cast suspicion if someone else happened to also know them.

 

[Random Man]

Do we know, exactly, how the Power binds an individual through the use of the Oath Rod? I'm asking if the (meta)physics of it has been determined. Aside from the fact that Spirit is used and the effect is the forcing (or prevention thereof) of an action sworn, what else do we know about it? Is it Compulsion? Would an earlier oath prevent a later oath from taking effect?

 

We already know that:

-The oaths can be removed

-The oath rod is literal-minded, that is, if you don't believe an action is contrary to the oath, you can commit it

-Ideas for defeating it include a counter-weave, mental gymnastics and muttering "not" under one's breath

-There is a way to "defeat the oath rod" which implies preventing the Oath Rod from working.

 

What if one were to swear on the Oath Rod, "I swear to prevent any future oaths from having an effect upon me, and to make this oath irrevocable?" Can the Oath Rod be used to defeat itself?

[yoniy0]

That wouldn't work (and I've commented on this very issue before). When the Black-Ajah-hunters catch the first ferret (I forgot her name, again) her former Oath to say the truth doesn't protect her from her Oath of obedience when she's ordered to say something she believes to be a lie. Instead, the Oaths conflict, and she chokes nearly to death.

[Random Man]

That wouldn't work (and I've commented on this very issue before). When the Black-Ajah-hunters catch the first ferret (I forgot her name, again) her former Oath to say the truth doesn't protect her from her Oath of obedience when she's ordered to say something she believes to be a lie. Instead, the Oaths conflict, and she chokes nearly to death.

 

Well yes, but that's because she was fully bound by both oaths A and B before the Black Ajah hunters tried to force her through oath B to break oath A.  Oaths A and B could both exist simultaneously without there being any inherent contradiction until the BA hunters tried to force one -- and the "compulsion" to keep both oaths simultaneously nearly killed her. What I'm wondering is, depending on exactly how binding works, if someone can be bound in a way that prevents another binding -- person binds herself with oath C (for sake of this argument, "I vow to not take seriously any oaths I might take in the future") which prevents another true binding, so oath A has no effect, because for oath A to have an effect, it would create a state of inherent contradiction.

 

This is by no means my purported "most likely scenario" for what happened. The most likely one is Mesaana managed to stay hidden and never held the rod to begin with because no one knew her alias well enough (such as Siuan telling Gareth when they rescued Egwene that the other Aes Sedai would just think her another young Sister) and so no one went looking for her. But if there is a way to defeat the Oath Rod, I think we should look further into what we know about the binders and how they do what they do.

[makaveli422]

I think that Messy would not allow herself to be put under oath with a binder. It would cut her life short, and she couldn't be certain that she could remove it without exposing herself. If she did swear, she had to know how to defeat it. And not just with mental gymnastics. Remember she was a researcher in AOL and not a good spy. I mean look how badly she bungled the BA. So she had to be confidant that it would not matter if she swore. The only reason she stayed hidden so long is because of her superior knowledge of the OP and how it works. If you gave some of the current AS the knowledge of inverted weaves and masking ability no way she surviving for a year. 

[yoniy0]

I've promised not to repeat what I think the likeliest possibiliy is, but you guys do realize that the OR won't affect how long Mesaana lives, right?

[MikeRiley]

What if one were to swear on the Oath Rod, "I swear to prevent any future oaths from having an effect upon me, and to make this oath irrevocable?" Can the Oath Rod be used to defeat itself?

 

Swearing to prevent future oaths wouldn't work. That would be like swearing to not let a bullet hurt you. It isn't your choice because it's an outside force that works on you.

 

The most likely thing would be an inverted spirit weave that works to remove the oath as it's being put on. Sort of bugging the rod.

[thewalrus777]

I've promised not to repeat what I think the likeliest possibiliy is, but you guys do realize that the OR won't affect how long Mesaana lives, right?

 

Your right yoniy. Mesaana has absolutely nothing to fear from the OR shortening her life, because of her ties to the DO. He can transmigrate her soul if she dies or if the oaths become a hinderance. Not to mention, IMO the OR really wouldn't cut her life short due to her being bound by the DO himself.

[yoniy0]

I was aiming to the fact that she's immortal. If your life expectancy is infinity, half of that is still infinity. She won't die of old age.

Of course, the whole debate is moot - if the good guys win I doubt the DO would be in a position to extend her life, at which point she might drop dead on the spot (or not, I don't know what it is that he does for his Chosen). If not, there would be no more world for her to live in (but she of course doesn't realize that as of yet).

[MikeRiley]

I was under the impression that the fact she still lives now was a direct result of being caught in the sealing of the bore. They certainly feel time, Aginor and Balthamel told us that much. To suggest she's immortal because her soul would be transmigrated is also not that great an argument, because the Dark One is not likely to rescue one of his Chosen that was stupid enough to wield a binding rod without a trick up her sleeve.

[makaveli422]

was under the impression that the fact she still lives now was a direct result of being caught in the sealing of the bore. They certainly feel time, Aginor and Balthamel told us that much.

So was I. I don't think the DO could grant immortality in the same body. Channelers live for hundreds of years and when your body is ready to give out the DO gives you a new one.

To suggest she's immortal because her soul would be transmigrated is also not that great an argument, because the Dark One is not likely to rescue one of his Chosen that was stupid enough to wield a binding rod without a trick up her sleeve.

I think unless she betrays him he would. I mean the DO does not have that many AOL followers left and even if they are bungling idiots they still know more than third agers. All he would have to do is mind trap her like some other bungling idiot forsaken. This is getting away from my point that she would not want to be bound. How much life does she have left in this body? Would she want to risk finding out the hard way? I don't think so. Not at the risk of dying and maybe waking up in another body with a mind trap on her.   

[OptimusPrime]

It is possible for female channelers to hide their ability to channel. Is it possible to channel while doing this? If so maybe thats how Mesaana got rounnd it.

 

Sorry if thats already been said

[makaveli422]

Yes I think they can. What if she inverted the weaves? So we know it is possible to mask your strength partially or fully. Could she have been inverting weaves while swearing? Very possible. But I can't remember if the person doing the swearing has to be channeling or can someone else channel instead of the person holding the OR?

[Random Man]

What if one were to swear on the Oath Rod, "I swear to prevent any future oaths from having an effect upon me, and to make this oath irrevocable?" Can the Oath Rod be used to defeat itself?

 

Swearing to prevent future oaths wouldn't work. That would be like swearing to not let a bullet hurt you. It isn't your choice because it's an outside force that works on you.

 

The most likely thing would be an inverted spirit weave that works to remove the oath as it's being put on. Sort of bugging the rod.

 

Ok, so my first example was a bit flawed. I refined it a bit by calling it an oath where one swore to "not take seriously any future oaths taken" This oath would force someone to have a mental "fingers crossed" during future swearings (to use a crude schoolyard reference). I'm just trying to think of possibilities of how to defeat the rod, depending on how the binding works, specifically. An inverted spirit weave might work, but only if the metaphysics of the Oath Rod allowed for it -- can one Compel (or anti-compel) onself, for instance, or would it be like Healing?

 

I still feel the most obvious way to defeat the Oath Rod is to never have to hold it in the first place. I don't see that it would be too difficult for Mesaana to just be another nameless Aes Sedai in the Tower who keeps to herself -- everyone assumes her to be a new Aes Sedai that they don't personally know when she's out and about, so when the time to reswear the oaths come up, she doesn't exist on any list of known Aes Sedai and so she doesn't get sought out. Hiding in the background, she could have appeared "on screen" at any point during setting descriptions from one AS or another's POV -- of which, if memory serves right, there are a few.