The Nature of the Dragon's Soul (Full Spoilers)

[Luckers]

I think TGS gives us some insight on the nature of the Dragon soul, as in, it seems like more than just a channeler Ta'veren, which was what I originally thought. How about a thread for that?

 

Go for gold Optimus.

[Nethran Thaimal]

He's the Creator's Champion.  Hasn't the Creator spoken to him?  He's more than ta'veren.  He's not born every hundred or four hundred years to be a hero.  He's only born when the Dark One needs to be bitch-smacked back into his hole.

[Leatherleaf]

One question I have is what happens when the Dragon chooses to turn to the Shadow, as is stated to have happened (although it may never actually have happened, I think Ishmael said this, and he isn't the most reliable source). Would possibly another hero step in to balance this huge switch out, such as Artur Hawkwing? We know from Hawkwing that he has fought both with the Dragon as well as against, I think possibly as a way to balance the Light with the Shadow.

 

By the way, I'm not saying the Dragon isn't the Creator's champion, I'm just saying the Dragon still has free will and could choose not to be Champion of the Light.

[Nethran Thaimal]

I personally don't know enough to answer thoroughly, but I think that if the Dragon chose the "dark side of the force," everyone would be effed.  It would be too late for Artur Hawkwing to step in and take over as the Champion of the Light, since he'd have to be born and come into adulthood.  And he can't channel, so he'd be dedd pretty fast.  13 Forsaken + Rand is a pretty big advantage for the Shadow.  The world's best hope would probably be the Aes Sedai.

[cleantoe]

One question I have is what happens when the Dragon chooses to turn to the Shadow, as is stated to have happened (although it may never actually have happened, I think Ishmael said this, and he isn't the most reliable source). Would possibly another hero step in to balance this huge switch out, such as Artur Hawkwing? We know from Hawkwing that he has fought both with the Dragon as well as against, I think possibly as a way to balance the Light with the Shadow.

 

By the way, I'm not saying the Dragon isn't the Creator's champion, I'm just saying the Dragon still has free will and could choose not to be Champion of the Light.

 

I don't think the Dragon has a choice, actually. Rand is right. He doesn't have a choice whether he wants to be the DR or not. He is and no matter what happens, the Pattern will steer him into it. The DR has NEVER fought with the DO before. Ishamael is a liar.

 

I firmly believe the Pattern simply would not let the DR turn to the DO and join him. If the Pattern sees stuff like that happening, Rand going dark...etc...it will correct it. And look what has happened.

 

Rand is sane again and was on the brink of dooming everyone. He wielded the True Source. The good side was at its lowest in TGS. But the Pattern, whether Rand realized it or not, put him back on track.

 

Tam is right when he said (paraphrased) "You may not have a choice in whether you fight or not but you can choose why you fight". I can't see any better way to describe the Dragon Reborn cycle. He will never be able to choose not to fight. He must.

 

The difference is how and why he fights it, not if he does.

[Vulgir]

Since the dark has never won the last battle in previous ages, it goes without saying that the Light has always won. Now if the Dragon has gone to the dark, i think it would be very interesting to see how the Last Battle would be won without the Dragon, or how the Dragon himself would be defeated.

 

 

[saidarisnowtainted]

i posted an idea in the new theories/tidbits thread but i think it works here too.

 

I think the Dragon can flex his taveren muscles consciously to bend the pattern to his will.

 

The whole fischer king/connection with the land stuff demonstrates the manner in which Rand's taveren nature passively affects the pattern.

 

But then in TGS we get a hint that perhaps Rand can bend the pattern at will--we see this where he threatens Cadsuane. 

 

If possible, what are the ramifications/possibilities?

[Crael123]

I am not sure if this belongs in this thread, but am i the only one that seems to notice that throughout the series Rand seems to be gaining strength in his ta'vern ness? I mean.... just look. Rand is in a bad mood for the entire TGS. the weather responds, and it isnt sunny again until the end, when rand laughs again, aka, he is happy. 

 

another example: the bargain with the sea folk. Rand is in the room, and he makes his demands. the sea folk ladies all say okay and seal the bargain before they know what they are doing. then, Rand leaves, aes sedai take over and then they fail epically at the bargaining.

 

Example: in Path of Daggers, Rand opened a can of kick ass on the seanchan, and an assasin tried to kill him. it was a shot from about 10 feet and the guy missed. anything weird about that?

 

do you guys see what im getting at? I do not think Rand's bad moods would have effected the weather if he got pissed off in tEoTW. but he did it in TGS. I think that Rands effect on the pattern has been growing ever since he proclaimed himself the dragon in the Great Hunt. has anybody else noticed this? just some thoughts.

[Crael123]

sorry for making the last bit bold, I couldnt figure out how to make the boldness go away  ;D

[mb]

Hasn't the Creator spoken to him?

Possibly during the scene at the Eye.

 

He's not born every hundred or four hundred years to be a hero.  He's only born when the Dark One needs to be bitch-smacked back into his hole.

Not sure about either of those comments.

In the scene where the Heroes appear, Hawking told that he fought with Rand/Lews-Therin.  That seems to indicate that the soul is a Hero; which in turn seems to indicate that the soul is born more times than just at the end of each Age.

A number of prophecies also seem to indicate this:

-Great Hunt Header (born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end)

-Dragon Reborn Header (And his paths shall be many, and who shall know his name, for he shall be born among us many times, in many guises, as he has been and ever will be, time without end.)

-Shadow Rising Header (and to he who shall be born again)

 

 

From what I read so far and from parts I have skimmed, I think I agree that Gathering Storm gives insight to the Dragon soul.

Mainly the scenes that tell of their (Rand's/Lews-Therin's) memories.

 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

In the interview that BS did with that guy in the car does he not let us know some more about this sort of thing...? My memory = 0.

[lordofsoup]

i posted this on another thread. 

Couldent Lew Therin be the Dragon?  The first dragon, and the primary name that the soul carries while it is the dream world.  Why does Artur Hawkwing calls him Lew Therin, not any of the other names that he used during all of his past lives?  Just like Brigitte is the hero of 1000s of legends, they were really either made up, or the name Brigitte's soul was using during the time that she was reborn.  All of her deeds are credited to Brigitte, but not to the person who she was at that time.  Could Rand al'Thor just be the name that the Dragon, Lew Therin is using, and he feels the Lews Therin personality over all the others because that is the primary person that his soul is?  After a thousand years is it possible that people always remember the Dragon's name to be Lews Therin?

[NetSlider]

You know, I have to agree that I don't think the pattern would actually give Rand a full set of choices. Have anyone else notice that when Rand was about to get more and more darker (and thus possible using bale fire) the sickness would be more and more present. It is as if the patter itself has safeguards to ensure its own survival and do not actually let Rand destroy the existence. I tend to believe, though, that over time, after so many fights, the DO adapts and in each age creates something new to set his grand assault on. for example, before the Khal keys were made nothing was really powerful enough to threaten pattern itself (or at least nothing we know of. and according to rand's mountain revelation, he remembered DIFFERENT lives so it is save to assume that the battle is never the same). but in the AoL the thing was made with ability to destroy the actual pattern. yet it was not used in that age, but instead in the next one. moridin is right to some degree, DO will eventually win by simply adapting to the battlefield and setting him self up for the victory two or three ages ahead. but the dragon also has the ability to implement previous lives' knowledge in order not to give the DO that advantage. maybe this is really why Dragon so different - eventually he remember EVERYTHING and thus able to see DO moves ahead of the time. (plus the whole series is filled with lost memories, old bloods' memories, other men's memories, and memories from the past lives). and even the title itself - THE MEMORY OF LIGHT?! COME ON!!! :)

[Rocky_Outcrop]

It has been noted that once dead heroes go by their name from their latest incarnation. Therefore Hawkwing is calling him LTT as that's the name of his buddy from TAR

[lordofsoup]

It dident seem like Brigitte went by the name of her last incarnation.  She was called something different, Maerion maybe?, when she was alive during the war of the power when Lews Therin was fighting the DO, she died to stop one of Moggy's attempts on his life. 

[Rocky_Outcrop]

And boom there goes that theory. If it had been you reading the thread that I was reading you'd have said that and furthered the debate, since I operate in the world of quotemisquote and conjecture I have nothing further to add and shall just tip my hat to you, good Sir.

[lordofsoup]

And boom there goes that theory. If it had been you reading the thread that I was reading you'd have said that and furthered the debate, since I operate in the world of quotemisquote and conjecture I have nothing further to add and shall just tip my hat to you, good Sir.

 

lolz, im 17 dont call me sir it makes me feel like an old geezer

[Rocky_Outcrop]

Ha ha ha!

 

 

[CTM]

Birgette has had lives since the war of power iirc.

 

KOD  chapter 17:

 

 

"Most of her memories of past lives had vanished as surely as the winter's snow. Nothing remained before the founding of the White Tower, and the four lives she had lived between then and the end of the Trolloc Wars were beginning to fragment. Little seemed to frighten her, yet she feared losing the rest, especially her memories of Gaidal Cain"

 

[lordofsoup]

ya, she also always used the name Brigitte when whe was in TAR.

[OptimusPrime]

Guys I didnt get chance to post my thoughts yesterday but I WILL join in at some point tonight

[Nethran Thaimal]

But Rand has no memories from between the Age of Legends and the "present".  The voice in his head- which despite what other people may think, I believe it's a real voice(because why would Rand create a seperate personality with its own completely different level of sanity and be consciously aware of it lurking in his head to the point that he talks to it and it to him?)- is Lews Therin Telemon, not some other incarnation of his soul.  I have a hard time believing he wasn't born any time in that 3000 year gap just by happenstance.

 

I think his soul is the Dragon.  It's born into the world many times, but only when the Dragon is needed, at the end of an Age(assuming every bout with the DO results in the end of an Age).

 

Just because Artur Hawkwing remembers fighting with and against him a certain amount of times doesn't mean that every time he wasn't acting as the Dragon.

[Dakota]

One question I have is what happens when the Dragon chooses to turn to the Shadow, as is stated to have happened (although it may never actually have happened, I think Ishmael said this, and he isn't the most reliable source).

RJ, however, has said this, and I think that he would be a much more reliable source.

 

Since the dark has never won the last battle in previous ages, it goes without saying that the Light has always won. Now if the Dragon has gone to the dark, i think it would be very interesting to see how the Last Battle would be won without the Dragon, or how the Dragon himself would be defeated.

Again, RJ has said that the light hasn't always necessarily won.  The times that the Dragon has gone over to the dark before, the Last Battle ended essentially in a tie.  If the last battle ends in a tie or the light winning, the cycle continues.  If it ends with the dark winning, then the world ends.  So that we know that the Dark has never won, but the Light hasn't always won either.

 

But since even in a tie, the world lives on, I suppose you could say that even a tie is a victory for the light, even if it isn't a victory with everyone standing in celebration.

[OptimusPrime]

So, first I'd like to thank Luckers for accepting the topic. I always like analysing things like this, I do it with Heroes (bring on Saturday) and while I used to think the Dragon was just a maxed out channeler Ta'veren, TGS definitely gave me the impression that the Dragon is much, much more than any Ta'veren or channeler could be.

 

Let me quote something I mentioned the other day, one of the old prophecies.

 

"There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he one with the land. Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield. He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow. Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love."

 

From a much-disputed translation of The Prophecies of the Dragon

by the poet Kyera Termendal of Shiota

believed to have been published between FY 700 and FY 800

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/prophecies/karaethon.html

 

It smacked me in the face as soon as I read Veins of Gold, when Lews Therin reminded Rand that love was what made them fight-the Dragon remembers love, a prophecy has been fulfilled. Then I saw the rest of the prophecy.

 

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow, for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn.

 

Do you not see it? The Pattern is becoming loose because the Dragon is faltering.

 

We all saw Rands darkness books before even KoD, where I think all the Rand-True Power theories began. For a very long time Rands obsessiveness with being invulnerable has been very obviously wrong. We saw him turn hard, becoming a tyrant, start losing control of himself, and eventually stop caring how dark he became. And in synergy with this we started seeing food rot, ghosts appearing, structures altering and even people being devoured by parasites materialising within them. Why? Because the land is one with the Dragon, and he is one with the land.

 

It all slides into place. The Dark One needs the Dragon to turn dark, whether willingly, unwillingly, or subconsciously, in order to break free. Rand is not officially dark, but the Dark One doesnt care either way; whatever the case is, the Dark One will be as big a fool as any Forsaken if he denies Rand the True Power without giving it long enough to see what happens. Just look at Rand in TGS! When they catch the boy who was Compelled by Graendal/whoever, when Rand said to the boy "Do you believe I could kill you?" I instantly thought the Dark Ones pants would be wet with amusement.

 

Listen. Rands will makes a difference-it affects events, TGS proves it. First we saw Tuon almost say EXACTLY what Rand wants beforehand, when Rand concentrates on her. Yes, we saw similar things happen to the Sea Folk, but Im thinking a) Tuon is much stronger minded, and b) Rand concentrates very hard on Tuon when that happened. She resisted, and it grew much stronger, and stopped as soon as she said no. Second, we see Rand pull a name out of someone whose mind was destroyed by Compulsion. Impossible. No way would Rand have gotten that answer from a destroyed mind. Not unless he willed it. Remember when he got loads of food to Arad Doman? He couldnt bring order to the city so he coldly decides to abandon it, and just before he steps through the gateway to Tear someone tells him all the food he brought-ALL OF IT-had instantly rotted.

 

The weather Im not counting in this because Moridin notes that the Dark One had done the seasons over. But if you also remember that Moridin thought to himself that Rand was moving according to Moridins plans, and look at what Im saying about Rand vs the Pattern, you might make the same of it as me.

 

Im pretty sure Im not the only person who originally thought that prophecy at the top referred to Rands destructive nature-I always thought it meant the good things in the world would be destroyed after Rand. Not that it literally meant Rand being one with the world made things happen like they are.

 

What does everyone think? I may be wrong but I dont think I am. I think Rand laughing at the end is the start of both him AND the world/Pattern recovering.

[SheaththeSword]

Optimus have u posted this in another thread? As i'm sure i've seen this idea before and everyone agreed with it. Some even feel the bubble's are incorrectly attributed to the DO, that they are more directly an effect (affect?) of the dragon's presence. But definatley that all the wierd incidences were  due to Rand becoming darker, and many of the food spoilages and the wards (incl. the ones that keep out vermin) failing. Though i hadn't really considered the giant one in Arad Doman to be a result of that before.