The Body Swap Theory - Updated. (Spoilers)

[thewalrus777]

Prophecy is meant to only be understood after the fact. Part of me says this because I have faith in both RJ and BS abilities as authors, and part because I absolutely DESPISE the body swap theory. But I can't wait until somethin none of us considered happens and the fits the criteria and we all go, "Oh, damn. good job, I never saw that comin."

 

*DESPISE*

 

Same here. The body swap theory is LAME. I would actually prefer to be blind-sided by something we the fans, have never thought of.

[randfandom]

Same here. The body swap theory is LAME. I would actually prefer to be blind-sided by something we the fans, have never thought of.

 

Ditto, Rand will not change bodies - I refuse to believe that RJ or BS will destroy the novel in this manner.

 

One more point to note that people seem to miss is that the people who did get new bodies were no longer their old selves. Sure they have the same memories and goals, but their personalities are definitely different. While we did not see enough of Aginor and Belthamel to compare, they do seem to act differently in their new bodies (especially Arangar). Moridin and Cyndane act very different from their old selves, as well. Obviously Rand himself is not the same than LTT.

Can you see Rand put in a new body and change personality yet again during the rush to TG - he already had his body swap - he was reborn!

[james2095]

Agreed, the body swap theory doesn't hold up, although I personally see nothing in it that would merit despite.  The substance of the balefire explanation has yet to be considered.  Remember, we have been told that we have not seen the last of Lews Therin.  Remember too that several of the prophecies have been close to literal when the have come to pass.  Remember all of the prophecies about Rand being marked when the series first begins?

[papertiger]

I think the Body Swap idea is brilliant. It dovetails nicely with both the cryptic answers of the Aelfinn and the various prophecies. Also, it's something unexpected that could turn the tide in the Last Battle. Rand, Alivia, and Moiraine linked through Callandor, channeling both the One Power and the True Power, sealing the Dark One's prison with the aid of some Tinkers and Aiel, who have discovered the Song, severing those crazy black lines from Ishamael again then celebrating with a coup de grace over Rand's old body, which may deteriorate in the same fashion as Ishamael's did. Rand himself is near death as a result of the transmigration, and what could possibly save him? Warder bond, just like Birgitte. I'm assuming, of course, that the bonds he shares with the girls would be snapped when the souls switched bodies. Besides, think of all the abuse that Rand's body has taken. He deserves a new ride.

[KefkaPalazzo]

What if the Aelfinn gave the answer as they would to two different people?  Rand was beginning to go into full swing of the second guy in his head at the time, so maybe the Aelfinn noticed in their searching of Rand's mind, and the answer went like this:

To Rand, since he asked the question: To live,

To LTT: you must die.

 

And LTT "died" in TGS, so could something that simple be "prophecy fulfilled"?

 

Just kinda tossing ideas around here.

[Owayn The Traveller]

Was listening to The Eye of the World today in the car and something caught my ear. I dunno if this has already been posted,so sorry if it has. Its in the chapter called I think 'Down the Arindalle(spelling?)'. Rand is having a dream, where yo guessed it, being chased by Ishy/Balazamon/Moridin. Near the end Rand is surrounded by mirrors and Ishy's face appears behind his. Growing and growing till its was only Rand's face. Balazamon's face.

Foreshadowing of the bodyswap?

There is a lot of foreshadowing in this book; Mat rubbing his neck where he nearly got caught by the Trollocs; Perrin waking up covered in twigs looking like a tree; I'm sure there is more.

The Perrin one is connected to Min's reading of him, where she has a vision of trees flowering all around him. Obviously this hasn't happened yet, maybe in Towers of Midnight?

[RembrandtQ.Einstein]

Rand dies, yet lives.

 

Easy. Rand as a personality dies, but LTT completely infests or possesses the shell that was formerly Rand's body. Thereby Rand died, but he is yet alive at the same time.

[Jillain Sanche]

I'm with the school of "we want to be surprised" in the resolution of the "to live you must die" conundrum.

 

Meanwhile, Perrin and Min seeing trees flowering around him. Could be he is the one to "find the Song."

[Duskfire]

Not sure why so many are against the body swap idea. We know that the DO can ressurect Forsaken by placing their souls into new bodies; thats already effectivily body swapping, except that the original is presumably dead when it happens. I think the idea is awesome myself.

[OptimusPrime]

I cant understand why people are so against the Dragon Reborn accomplishing his own version of reincarnation. I think it would be awesome to see the Forsaken reactions to "Moridin" hosting a meeting and then revealing that he is Rand, that he has an army of channelers around them, and that he is giving them one last chance to join him and fight the Dark One-and then do his Pattern-bending on them like he tried on Tuon.

[wipe]

I've stated a long time ago, and I am still of that mind; that Rand will die and go to TaR- then Nyn or somebody else will rip him back out. This will nicely tie into all the viewings, dreams and prophs. But I would not be entirely suprised if you're right either Luckers- I agree that your view is also valid, I just hope RJ and BS don't go that way. I just don't like it.

 

Luckers- what arguments against the TaR solution is there. He dies yet lives (as shown eloquently by quote mistress Terez earlier), women cry over him (probably, then Nyn remembers what she have seen and remembers that the Dragon is a Hero, and goes to get him out of TaR). On the boat they are probably sustaining him with warder bonds, like Elayne did with Birgitte; so he can come back to strength after being ripped out. And so on and so on. i feel that this ties in just as well (or better) with the storyline and foreshadowing as the body swap; but as I said- you might be right. But I have never actually seen you shoot down the theory I concur with (I don't know if I staded it first way back, so I will not claim it, Terez might know who stated it first  ;) ). Or do you actually find it plausible, and therefore don't shoot it down? Is it your second option?

[OptimusPrime]

I agree that the T'A'R solution is also a valid posibility and its the alternative I see happening should the bodyswap fail. Theres nothing that outrules the T'A'R solution at all either.

[wipe]

I agree that the T'A'R solution is also a valid posibility and its the alternative I see happening should the bodyswap fail. Theres nothing that outrules the T'A'R solution at all either.

 

It's how I see it also, only the other way around. I hope for T'A'R and see the bodyswap as the second option. I don't beleive in the balefire because to much must coincide. First the same person must kill Moridin and Rand (witout balefire, because then the soul disapears orthe creator must catch Rands soul before it does, or the balefire that kills them must be weaker than the one I describe later so they don't get burned out way back), then a person must balefire Rand's killer into oblivion to bring time back so dawn can dawn again, and rand will be back. Also if Rand is balefired, no body will remain for the women to mourn over. How can this tie to the "YET LIVES"-part. And so on and so on. Possible- of course, the writer can create the right scenario if he wants to, plausible- not so much in my mind.

[Luckers]

To my mind the major problem with the TAR theory is that it does not, in fact, fulfil the 'Dead Yet Lives'.

 

Within the world of the Wheel, death and life refers to body--the incarnation within the Wheel itself. This is shown countless times--the Forsaken die, and though the Dark One secures their soul and brings it back (much as you would suggest Nynave would), they still refer to being dead, then alive once more. Mat was dead when Rand's balefire pulled his soul back, yet was termed to be dead, then alive, and the heroes too refer to their time in TAR as 'between lives'--when your body dies, you are dead until you are next reborn or transmigrated. As such whilst Rand was dead in TAR he would be dead in truth, and then when he is pulled out he lives once more.

 

Yet the prophecy states that he will be dead, yet alive. Concurrent states. That is why it fits the body swap so neatly--the fact that he is already in his new body when his old physical body dies is what allows him to be concurrently dead and alive. This way would be like with Mat. He would be dead and then live again.

 

And I'm not looking to shoot down theories. Should the TAR theory come about I'll shrug off the language problem as an oversight or mistake, but all things being equal the phrasing of that prophecy within the understanding of death in the Wheel rules out this option--at least to my mind.

 

Also, whatever amalgamation effect happened at the end of tGS, the person that came out was still ruled by Rand's personality. I do not believe the greater TAR personality would be the same.

[Skeeve the Great]

My major problem with swap theory is that it cheapens all the love plot three girls have for Rand. it was mentioned many times that they love his looks, his body, eyes, etc. And suddenly they supposed to love him in some other body? I don't think I can accept such twist.

 

[Kathleen]

Are you saying that you don't think they love Rand's essence, just his looks? You think they would all be so shallow as to change how they feel about him just because his looks changed? He did loose a hand and I don't see any of them loving him less for it. (Not saying that you're wrong, just wanting to know your actual thoughts on it, valid questions, not accusatory) Perhaps they will be less physically attracted to him, find it hard to get used to to, but when do you think they will stop loving him for losing the looks if he keeps the personality and way of thinking and acting toward them?

[OptimusPrime]

My major problem with swap theory is that it cheapens all the love plot three girls have for Rand. it was mentioned many times that they love his looks, his body, eyes, etc. And suddenly they supposed to love him in some other body? I don't think I can accept such twist.

 

 

Its also mentioned that none of the girls want to share him. Doesnt cheapen the fact that they are going to share him does it. They may like his looks, but they are in love with his personality, no? Im willing to bet that if he did swap bodies with Moridin not one of the girls would leave him. It would be hard for them to come to terms with, of course, especially if they knew who had been using the body prior to Rand, but that doesnt matter either, or at least it shouldnt. If Rand won because he remembered love in TGS, then his women left him because he looked like someone else, what would that do to Rand?

[Skeeve the Great]

Are you saying that you don't think they love Rand's essence, just his looks? You think they would all be so shallow as to change how they feel about him just because his looks changed? He did loose a hand and I don't see any of them loving him less for it. (Not saying that you're wrong, just wanting to know your actual thoughts on it, valid questions, not accusatory) Perhaps they will be less physically attracted to him, find it hard to get used to to, but when do you think they will stop loving him for losing the looks if he keeps the personality and way of thinking and acting toward them?

 

No, I don't think they love Rand just for his looks. But, his looks were big part of it as we've seen in the books, when girls discussed Rand between themselves. And I just don't see how introducing new plot line (Rand changing his looks and girls reaction to that) would be beneficial to the latest books.

[OptimusPrime]

Are you saying that you don't think they love Rand's essence, just his looks? You think they would all be so shallow as to change how they feel about him just because his looks changed? He did loose a hand and I don't see any of them loving him less for it. (Not saying that you're wrong, just wanting to know your actual thoughts on it, valid questions, not accusatory) Perhaps they will be less physically attracted to him, find it hard to get used to to, but when do you think they will stop loving him for losing the looks if he keeps the personality and way of thinking and acting toward them?

 

No, I don't think they love Rand just for his looks. But, his looks were big part of it as we've seen in the books, when girls discussed Rand between themselves. And I just don't see how introducing new plot line (Rand changing his looks and girls reaction to that) would be beneficial to the latest books.

 

Then surely them staying with Rand despite him not looking like himself would strengthen the plot of their love story rather than cheapen it?

 

ELAYNE: I dont want you anymore

RAND: But Elayne, its still me, I fought and came back for our love...

ELAYNE: Yeah well I dont like black haired men do I?

RAND: I can dye my hair if you w-

ELAYNE: Natural only!

RAND: Elayne, how can you be like this after everything we've been through?

ELAYNE: I just can! And readers will defend me in this coz Im staying true to my character coz Im a spoiled little brat.

RAND: Hmm, thirteen books and an ongoing thing about me having three chicks, ending like this... expensiiive.

[Skeeve the Great]

Then surely them staying with Rand despite him not looking like himself would strengthen the plot of their love story rather than cheapen it?

 

Not looking like himself and looking as totally different person are not the same.

 

I just fail to see the need for inventing a new plot (body swap) that creates so many other sub plots (girls, for one, Aiel for another).

 

Sure you can explain out that girls would love him anyway. Sure you can explain out that his followers will somehow still follow him, etc. But why we need it? To explain "die, yet live"?

 

There are others, more possible explanations for that. For example, there is a chance that Rand would be almost dead, so the people would think he died and then Nynaeve comes and resurrects him. This was actually strongly hinted two  times in the book: a) when someone said that Nynaeve wouldn't rest until she Heals the death; b) Chief Clerk Norry hinted that he'll beleive Rand dead when he sees him dead three days. For me, that is most logical resolution of "die, yet live" stuff. It would also explain Egwene's dream of dead Rand body which felt apart. It may also explain Egwene's dread of a man "dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die".

 

ADD (as long as we making stuff up)

 

Elayne: Who the hell are you?

Rand in Moridin body: It's me! Rand!

Elayne: You look different. Are you wearing MoM?

Rand: No, this is how I'm going to look forever.

Elayne: Ah, ok then. (kisses him and drags him to bed)

 

Avi: Who are you?

Rand: It's me! Rand!

Avi: Carcaran?

Rand: Yeah!

Avi: Where are your tatoos and wounds?

Rand: Finally gone! I feel no pain and I'm finally healthy!

Avi: So you are telling me that you lost the marks of Chief of Clan Chiefs, you no longer have honor of bearing pains of the world, you are not even look like Aiel?

Rand: Yeah, isn't it great?!... (dies from the spear)

 

 

Min: Tell me, who are you again?

Rand: It's me! Rand!

Min: What?

Rand: Yeah, remember that viewing you had with me merging with someone else? I did it! That's how I'm going to look forever!

Min: Are you telling me that all those scratch marks on you back that I left during all the nights we spent together are gone?

Rand: Hmm, yeah...

Min: Pity... Btw, I liked you bottom before. Not it's kinda plumy for my taste.

Rand: But it's me

Min: Well, ok then. Bye.

 

[Kathleen]

It would take time to convince so many people, the girls, the Aeil, all of his followers that he was infact Rand, and not one of the forsaken trying to confuse them (which anyone who has seen Moridin would believe) They have moved somethings along faster than I thought they would that seemed to big to be fixed so quickly or agreed on so quickly in the passed that they may be able to do the same here, but I agree it does seem like a big plot that has more chance of being too long for the good of fulfilling one prophecy. Though they could have Alanna say its him she helped him do it, the girls could ask him to prove it, he could tell them something only they would know and they may still feel the bond (i'm sure how the bond works if the its connected to the body or soul) but if it is still there that would be a good convincing point, then with the his main possie saying it him, Avi could convince the Wise Ones, so they would accept it, and if they do the Aeil do. And if everyone else does the rest of the world could take up easily enough, if his goal stays the same...It doesn't have to take for ever to get people to accept it, but it also seems like a lot of work for one prophecy that could be done a number of other ways.

[OptimusPrime]

Plus theres Mat and Perrin who see Rand when they think of him. I doubt that will stop if/when Rand took Moridins body.

 

For example, there is a chance that Rand would be almost dead, so the people would think he died and then Nynaeve comes and resurrects him.

 

There is no chance of that, because you cannot ressurect someone who isnt dead.

 

This was actually strongly hinted two  times in the book: a) when someone said that Nynaeve wouldn't rest until she Heals the death; b) Chief Clerk Norry hinted that he'll beleive Rand dead when he sees him dead three days. For me, that is most logical resolution of "die, yet live" stuff. It would also explain Egwene's dream of dead Rand body which felt apart. It may also explain Egwene's dread of a man "dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die".

 

How would Nynaeve resurrecting Rand from near death explain a body that looks like Rand but isnt? Egwene said Rands face shattered when she touch it. That doesnt hint at anything to do with Nynaeve resurrecting people from near death. Id say it is either a hint that the body was fake altogether, or it was Shadowspawn or some such. Or someone else died in it. And we have four examples of a person dying and then someone else inhabitting that body. Also RJ said a Nyms soul is borrowed from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth, so we can definitely be sure a bodysap is possible.

[Skeeve the Great]

There is no chance of that, because you cannot ressurect someone who isnt dead.

 

Ok, I'll use Heal then.

 

How would Nynaeve resurrecting Rand from near death explain a body that looks like Rand but isnt? Egwene said Rands face shattered when she touch it. That doesnt hint at anything to do with Nynaeve resurrecting people from near death. Id say it is either a hint that the body was fake altogether, or it was Shadowspawn or some such. Or someone else died in it. And we have four examples of a person dying and then someone else inhabitting that body. Also RJ said a Nyms soul is borrowed from the supply of souls awaiting rebirth, so we can definitely be sure a bodysap is possible.

 

It was dead body in the dream, that isn't. Not just body. If you are not actually dead or if you have faked the death or such, I could easily see Egwene's dream of dead body that felt apart when touched explained as detail investigations into death (touching dead body) may reveal that it's not death (felt apart).

 

As for body swap, no. Nym souls are not explaining the body swap. Because you need a swap operation. Not value assignment. :) Nyms are new constructs which have souls of already dead persons, presumably dead Ages ago. Body swap theory tries to tell us that somehow a living person's soul got transfered to another body and that body's soul is transfered back to the person's body. We've never seen this before in the book.

[Duskfire]

It was dead body in the dream, that isn't. Not just body. If you are not actually dead or if you have faked the death or such, I could easily see Egwene's dream of dead body that felt apart when touched explained as detail investigations into death (touching dead body) may reveal that it's not death (felt apart).

 

As for body swap, no. Nym souls are not explaining the body swap. Because you need a swap operation. Not value assignment. Smiley Nyms are new constructs which have souls of already dead persons, presumably dead Ages ago. Body swap theory tries to tell us that somehow a living person's soul got transfered to another body and that body's soul is transfered back to the person's body. We've never seen this before in the book.

 

"Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand's body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet. "

 

I think its really pushing it to suggest that a corpse who broke apart like a paper puppet is symbolism of someones death being investigated. Its possible, after all dreams are always ambigious. However just doesn't seem to suit the mood of the dream, with Logain laughing and so forth.

 

And we have never seen it happen in a book, but theres no reason to assume its impossible. The main reason why it would be possible here is because of the link established between Rand and Moridin. They can almost feel each other touching. I just think theres too many dreams and so forth of Rand merging with another and that person dying for me to think the body swap won't happen.

[farthammer]

Well Egwene made extra sure that Verin was dead, so it's not a weird idea or anything.

 

Ishamael's body rotted and fell apart very quickly which is pretty weird.  I never read anything that explained it personally, so I don't know if that is something that's exclusive to the Shadow or not.  The idea seems to rhyme with Egwene's dream, to me anyway.