Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Vardar]

I have a question:

 

In the Hunt for the Horn, Rand walks into the house and the whole "Blink...blink...blink" thing happens where he see the family who lived there get attacked by Fain's Trollocs and ends up covered in flies. How'd the blink thing happen when he wasn't by a portal stone?

 

It was a "time trap" set up by Fain.

 

I thought it was a bubble of evil?

 

What's a time trap.

 

Just saw the quote. Umm, ok odd. Wonder if that'll come back later. Fain can control time?

 

No, not really. At this point (and for a long time after) Fain can't really control his powers very well at all. He doesn't even understand them. The trap seems to have been mostly an illusion (if a deadly one), but it's not really clear what was going on there. I wouldn't take the words from the signing report too literally, either; people have been known to give very different accounts of the same questions and answers. The important thing is, Fain did it.

 

PS—As for thinking it was a bubble of evil, that's kind of funny because there was a bubble of evil in ACOS that most people thought was something Fain did. (The one in the rebels' camp in Cairhien, with the crazy fog.)

 

I just recall seeing that debated somewhere before and thought a quote about bubble of evil was brought up. I'm kinda shocked honestly.

[Sharaman]

IIRC in WH, Fain pulled a similar illusion of replaying something that had happened in the recent past when two rogue Ashaman climbed up the stairs into his lair in Far Madding.

Again, he nearly caught Rand. Analysis: Fain can't stop time but he can put together very vivid video playbacks of things that have happened relatively recently. it's not very clear how he would trapped Rand in TGH; in WH he was sidling into striking distance with his dagger while Rand watched the show.

Edit: Typos

Edited August 15, 2012 by Sharaman

[yoniy0]

people have been known to give very different accounts of the same questions and answers. The important thing is, Fain did it.

In this case, however, we have two separate accounts of the same signing, so I tend to trust their understanding. Then we've got what Sharaman and I have added, that this wasn't the only instance where we've seen Fain use similar abilities. Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

[Terez]

IIRC in WH, Fain pulled a similar illusion of replaying something that had happened in the recent past when two rogue Ashaman climbed up the stairs into his lair in Far Madding.

 

One might also say he did it with Zombie Sammael.

 

people have been known to give very different accounts of the same questions and answers. The important thing is, Fain did it.

In this case, however, we have two separate accounts of the same signing, so I tend to trust their understanding.

 

To the point that time itself was actually looping? In other words, my response was to the implication that Fain could control time. He's not controlling time itself (taking the 'time-loop' thing too literally) but rather controlling Rand's perception of time (at best).

 

Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

[Durinax]

Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

I wonder if this means that Fain was the one who sent the trollocs through the ways while masquerading as whoever.

[Durinax]

Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

I wonder if this means that Fain was the one who sent the trollocs through the ways while masquerading as whoever.

[Terez]

That's what I meant when I said earlier in that very same post that it might also be what happened with Zombie Sammael.

[yoniy0]

Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

I wonder if this means that Fain was the one who sent the trollocs through the ways while masquerading as whoever.

That's what she meant by the "Sammael zombie", I think. But, while Fain's now capable of corrupting Shadowspawn (that's an odd conjugation), he can't simply make them obey (in unconventional methods, i.e., by using something other than fear). Whoever impersonated Sammael, his mere order was enough to send 100K trollocs into the Ways, so I'm not sure that's very likely.

[Terez]

Your point about his lack of control early on is well taken, though. Even in Far Madding, he apparently had to kill Rand physically while Rand was caught in the vision, so that does raise a question as to the effectiveness of the trap from TGH.

 

Well, his illusion of Torval and Gedwyn was not really a trap—just a distraction, which Rand didn't buy because he had seen the bodies in the attic.

I wonder if this means that Fain was the one who sent the trollocs through the ways while masquerading as whoever.

That's what she meant by the "Sammael zombie", I think. But, while Fain's now capable of corrupting Shadowspawn (that's an odd conjugation), he can't simply make them obey (in unconventional methods, i.e., by using something other than fear).

 

It doesn't matter, because Sammael can.

[yoniy0]

Ah, that does make more sense, in some ways. Off the top of my head, though, Fain always wanted to have Rand for himself. Would he trust a Shadowspawn horde not to accidentally kill him?

[Terez]

Why not? He's crazy. He trusted the Whitecloaks not to kill Rand despite having ordered them to do exactly that.

[avernite]

So I was rereading tEotW for a bit, and noted Elayne saying 'by law and custom guests of the royal family can weart arms, even in the presence of the Queen' Ch40 (retranslated), but in ToM the Cairhienin lose their weapons before meeting her ToM ch 50 on Betrome 'he wore a lrge knife - swords had been fprbidden in the Queens presence'.

 

Rules change, of course, but are the Cairhienin not guests, did the rules change without a mention, or did I just find a very obscure inconsistency?

[Ashaman Kovan]

Pretty sure it's just to do with the rising danger. The rebellion, BA, TG coming, etc. Not taking anymore chances, even if she does have plot protection.

[yoniy0]

Not everyone visiting court is a guest of the Royal Family, else there would've been no meaning in being such a guest. No, you probably have to be personally invited for more than mere political business in order to be considered such a guest.

[TootThatHorn]

Also Birgitte; Birgitte would insist I'm sure.

[Sharaman]

Why not? He's crazy. He trusted the Whitecloaks not to kill Rand despite having ordered them to do exactly that.

 

The theory that Fain used zombie Sammael to order trollocs into the Ways in KoD hinges on several things, all unconfirmed.

1) Does the Chosen mark stay on after Sammael's been "eaten" by Mashadar? Else the Spawn won't obey him

2) Can a Fain zombie say coherent things? It has to give orders that spawn understand.

3) Can Fain reach out and control any victim of Mashadar (post the mordeth-Fain melding)? As far as we know, he was nowhere near Aridhol in ACoS at the time of the incident.

4) Whoever reported to Moridin on the KoD event of ordering spawn into the Ways didn't mention that Sammy looked strange in any way. Difficult to believe that a zombie Sammael who has been kept "on ice" for a longish period would not have tattered clothes, other more disgusting signs of beng zombied, etc.

 

Nice speculation however.

[Terez]

Why not? He's crazy. He trusted the Whitecloaks not to kill Rand despite having ordered them to do exactly that.

 

The theory that Fain used zombie Sammael to order trollocs into the Ways in KoD hinges on several things, all unconfirmed.

 

Not all. And it has more going for it than any other theory.

 

1) Does the Chosen mark stay on after Sammael's been "eaten" by Mashadar? Else the Spawn won't obey him

 

No reason to believe otherwise.

 

2) Can a Fain zombie say coherent things? It has to give orders that spawn understand.

 

Torval and Gedwyn were talking in Far Madding.

 

3) Can Fain reach out and control any victim of Mashadar (post the mordeth-Fain melding)? As far as we know, he was nowhere near Aridhol in ACoS at the time of the incident.

 

The assumption is that Fain's connection to the evil of Mashadar gives him that access, so his proximity at the time is irrelevant because it's a part of him wherever he goes.

 

4) Whoever reported to Moridin on the KoD event of ordering spawn into the Ways didn't mention that Sammy looked strange in any way. Difficult to believe that a zombie Sammael who has been kept "on ice" for a longish period would not have tattered clothes, other more disgusting signs of beng zombied, etc.

 

For an example, see Mordeth himself. His body was, according to Brandon, not exactly real, but not exactly illusion either.

[yoniy0]

2) Can a Fain zombie say coherent things? It has to give orders that spawn understand.

Torval and Gedwyn were talking in Far Madding.

These weren't zombies like the Shadowspawn we've seen in ToM. It was merely an illusion for Rand. Indeed, the ones from ToM were showing signs of no longer being 'ordinary'.

 

3) Can Fain reach out and control any victim of Mashadar (post the mordeth-Fain melding)? As far as we know, he was nowhere near Aridhol in ACoS at the time of the incident.

The assumption is that Fain's connection to the evil of Mashadar gives him that access, so his proximity at the time is irrelevant because it's a part of him wherever he goes.

But Mordeth's connection to Aridhol was broken when he became Fain:

The evil power in Padan Fain has neither decreased nor increased, nor has that in the dagger. The corruption in him was partly caused by the taint on Shadar Logoth, but it didn't constitute a real connection to the city.

So I see no particular reason to assume he could use Mashadar in the same fashion he did that new fog-thingy.

 

4) Whoever reported to Moridin on the KoD event of ordering spawn into the Ways didn't mention that Sammy looked strange in any way. Difficult to believe that a zombie Sammael who has been kept "on ice" for a longish period would not have tattered clothes, other more disgusting signs of beng zombied, etc.

For an example, see Mordeth himself. His body was, according to Brandon, not exactly real, but not exactly illusion either.

Again, those zombies from ToM were showing signs of being zombified, which as far as we know never happened to Mordeth. Why would they be the same thing?

[Vardar]

If Samm just died from Mash, why didn't the DL rez him?

[Vardar]

And I'll toss this in here from another thread, since it belongs here more:

@ Sutt; Concerning the BT, how long have they been around? (Talking about your RJ experimenting with the bond knowing more than AS quote). They've gotten a lot of new weaves for only being around for a year or so (or are my numbers off in my head)

[Terez]

2) Can a Fain zombie say coherent things? It has to give orders that spawn understand.

Torval and Gedwyn were talking in Far Madding.

These weren't zombies like the Shadowspawn we've seen in ToM. It was merely an illusion for Rand. Indeed, the ones from ToM were showing signs of no longer being 'ordinary'.

 

You are taking my usage of the term 'Zombie Sammael' way too literally. A friend of mine at TL has that username, so I have taken to using it to refer to this iteration of Sammael because Sammael is dead, and for no other reason.

 

3) Can Fain reach out and control any victim of Mashadar (post the mordeth-Fain melding)? As far as we know, he was nowhere near Aridhol in ACoS at the time of the incident.

The assumption is that Fain's connection to the evil of Mashadar gives him that access, so his proximity at the time is irrelevant because it's a part of him wherever he goes.

But Mordeth's connection to Aridhol was broken when he became Fain

 

It doesn't matter because Aridhol ≠ Mashadar.

 

So I see no particular reason to assume he could use Mashadar in the same fashion he did that new fog-thingy.

 

I see no reason to believe that the 'new fog-thingy' is not Mashadar.

[Terez]

If Samm just died from Mash, why didn't the DL rez him?

 

According to Brandon, his thread was corrupted by Mashadar, preventing the Dark One from resurrecting him (but presumably not preventing the master of Mashadar from using him).

[Vardar]

If Samm just died from Mash, why didn't the DL rez him?

 

According to Brandon, his thread was corrupted by Mashadar, preventing the Dark One from resurrecting him (but presumably not preventing the master of Mashadar from using him).

 

Well damn, guess the DO doesn't know everything. His whole, ONLY BALEFIRE CAN STOP ME (From rezzing people) line was totally wrong.

 

Cool, thanks again!

[thisguy]

There are certain things about Fain that kinda bother me. If he's at all powerful enough to take on the DO, I'm kinda bothered by that.

[yoniy0]

I see no reason to believe that the 'new fog-thingy' is not Mashadar.

Reading ToM (or, actually, the sample material), that was my initial thought as well. I'm under the impression I've since read a quote of Brandon's saying it isn't, but as it turns out I can't find anything of the sort.