Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Terez]

"You are washed clean of Nynaeve al'Maera from Emond's Field. You are washed clean of all ties that bind you to the world. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul. You are Nynaeve al'Maera, Accepted of the White Tower." Handing the chalice to one of the sisters, the Amyrlin drew Nynaeve to her feet. "You are sealed to us, now."

"You are washed clean of Egwene al'Vere from Emond's Field. You are washed clean of all ties that bind you to the world. You come to us washed clean, in heart and soul. You are Egwene al'Vere, Accepted of the White Tower." The last drop splashed onto Egwene's hair. "You are sealed to us, now."

Edited August 7, 2012 by Terez

[Thrasymachus]

Oooh, pretty words. I like that, and I did ask for it, but it doesn't strike me as particularly binding, you know? After all, Eggy won't marry Gawyn until they can get her parents up there. King Easar's sister is one of his advisers and Aes Sedai. Elayne is Aes Sedai and Queen of Andor and now Cairhein by heritage. So much for being "washed clean of all ties that bind you to the world."

[Mark Molzner]

"Washed clean of all ties..." as of that moment. And they are very binding. In a world where a certain oath is all but assumed to be absolute, so too would be the Amyrlin's words be absolutely binding to newly accepted.

[thisguy]

Anybody know what the explanation is for Verin being able to touch the ogier who had his soul stripped away by the machin shain in book 2 while she was in a stedding and know that he was empty?

Edited August 8, 2012 by thisguy

[Barid Bel Medar]

Oooh, pretty words. I like that, and I did ask for it, but it doesn't strike me as particularly binding, you know? After all, Eggy won't marry Gawyn until they can get her parents up there. King Easar's sister is one of his advisers and Aes Sedai. Elayne is Aes Sedai and Queen of Andor and now Cairhein by heritage. So much for being "washed clean of all ties that bind you to the world."

 

That is besides the point. You are correct in that, but in regards to testing, the Aes Sedai are not going to give Tinkers a handicap. After they pass, they can wear all the multi-coloured shirts they like, but in the tests, they are initiates of the Tower, and will not be shown any favour.

[thisguy]

They can act by wrapping up the enemy in air, they don't have to kill to be effective. Suian demonstrates this with Nynaeve and Egwene on the way to Tar Valon from Fal Dara.

A true follower of the way of the leaf will not raise a hand to defend even themselves. So, no bearhugs which seems the same to me as enveloping an enemy in air. At best a Tinker would put up a shield or something of that nature.

[Suttree]

Anybody know what the explanation is for Verin being able to touch the ogier who had his soul stripped away by the machin shain in book 2 while she was in a stedding and know that he was empty?

 

 

Ryan R.

 

This actually has no spoilers and is not in and of itself very interesting but since I have heard people speculating about Verin's using a Well back in The Great Hunt to "Delve" that Ogier, I'll mention it.

Robert Jordan

 

I asked Jordan if you need to channel to detect loss of soul, and he said no, it was obvious from touch. So Verin doesn't have a Well, or at least didn't use it.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Suttree

[thisguy]

Anybody know what the explanation is for Verin being able to touch the ogier who had his soul stripped away by the machin shain in book 2 while she was in a stedding and know that he was empty?

 

 

Ryan R.

 

This actually has no spoilers and is not in and of itself very interesting but since I have heard people speculating about Verin's using a Well back in The Great Hunt to "Delve" that Ogier, I'll mention it.

Robert Jordan

 

I asked Jordan if you need to channel to detect loss of soul, and he said no, it was obvious from touch. So Verin doesn't have a Well, or at least didn't use it.

Many thanks, Suttree.

[Queens blessing]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

[Suttree]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

 

Herid Fel? He understood the true nature of the wheel and knew this battle has been fought many times before. Fel was on the verge of giving Rand the information needed to seal the bore so a gholam was sent to kill him...

 

LoC Ch. 18

"What? Yes, exactly the point. It can’t be the Last Battle. Even if the Dragon Reborn seals the Dark One’s prison again as well as the Creator made it. Which I don’t think he can do." He leaned forward and lowered his voice conspiratorially. "He isn’t the Creator, you know, whatever they say in the streets. Still, it has to be sealed up again by somebody. The Wheel, you see."

"I don’t see... " Rand trailed off.

"Yes, you do. You’d make a good student." Snatching his pipe out, Herid drew a circle in the air with the stem. "The Wheel of Time. Ages come and go and come again as the Wheel turns. All the catechism." Suddenly he stabbed a point on that imaginary wheel. "Here the Dark One’s prison is whole. Here, they drilled a hole in it, and sealed it up again." He moved the bit of the pipe along the arc he had drawn. "Here we are. The seal’s weakening. But that doesn’t matter, of course." The pipestem completed the circle. "When the Wheel turns back to here, back to where they drilled the hole in the first place, the Dark One’s prison has to be whole again."

 

LoC Ch. 50

 

The next day brought a note crammed onto a torn-off corner of parchment.

 

Belief and order give strength. Have to clear rubble before you can build. Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl. Too pretty.

Fel

 

This is why Min has been studying Fel's books and Rand has tasked her with finding the answer for him on how to seal the bore.

 

ToM

"You have to find out how. I cannot seal the Bore the way I tried last time. I'm missing something, something vital. Find it for me."

[Thrasymachus]

So far, I believe we've only seen Nynaeve test for the shawl, and her test was exceptional, and cannot be used to judge testing in general. The requirements for the test simply involve reaching the symbol on the ground and weaving the next weave in the list while maintaining an Aes Sedai's composure. All those weaves are supposed to be pretty much harmless and needlessly complicated. In fact, initiates are not supposed to be able to weave anything else. You'd think that putting something into the test that actually put the testee's life in danger and required defense would require penance given that handicap, if it weren't for the whole, "no talking about what happens in the test," rule. Again, Nynaeve's test is an exception, the testers weren't supposed to take things that far. Once she showed a willingness and capability to defend herself, in other words, once she showed she could break the rules and still do the required weaves perfectly, they pushed further until she was openly displaying emotion at the situations they created for her. There's no reason to believe that more standard testing would require the use of violence.

 

And those pretty words don't seem all that binding to me. Moiraine skedaddled out of Tar Valon within a couple weeks of gaining the shawl, knowing full well that the Tower wanted her to be sent to Cairhein and placed on the Throne, and stayed out after finding out that the new Amryllin had sent for her. Cadsuane spanked an Amryllin. Fully a third of the Tower sat out the split. Really binding them tight, that Tower. That ritual is even less binding than the Oaths. It's not like there were any weaves of Spirit to enforce it.

 

Further, I'm sure we've seen plenty of examples of cultural pride or mementos of heritage displayed among the personal effects of various Sedai. Plus, look at all those Sea Folk Sedai, the weak ones they sent, who never ratted them out to the Tower in all this time. There's apparently lots of room for sisters to keep to their cultural heritage, plenty of sisters who do and would therefore respect that, and lots of room for pacifist sisters to serve the Tower. So you'd expect there to be at least a few faithful Tinker Aes Sedai in some of the support Ajahs. On the other hand, the issue could be with the Tinkers, if their cultural practice is such as to disown or "free" their daughters born with the Spark from the Way.

[Barid Bel Medar]

@Thrasymachus

 

Again, nobody is disagreeing with what you are saying in regards to personal loyalties, yes, sisters display loyalties to their former homes.

 

In the eyes of the Amyrlin and the Hall, however, they are expected not to hesitate. Egwene tells Kriuna to fight against her brother, she is expected to do so. Egwene tells some former tinker to kill some Shadowspawn, she better damn well do it, or it is penance for her. (not that I am suggesting Egwene would do any of this, she would likely show compassion if she could, but in the end, they put the Tower above all else)

 

In addition to Nynaeve's test, we have Moiraine's in New Spring. Plus Nyneave and Egwene's accepted test. Taking this four into account, you can be damn sure that the woman's dedication will be tested.

 

Testing a former Tinker, there is no way they wouldn't confront here with violence and killing. The accepted test is used explicitly to do this, to test the woman's inner heart.

 

In all tests we have seen, all of the women are made to discard their own personal affiliation for the "greater good" (basically, the Tower protocol in form of rules of the test)

 

It could be that the woman manages to avoid violence somehow in these tests, and there is no reason pacifistic belief needs to be discarded completely, but you can be sure that her reluctance for violence will be tested to the extreme.

 

Edit:

So far, I believe we've only seen Nynaeve test for the shawl, and her test was exceptional, and cannot be used to judge testing in general. The requirements for the test simply involve reaching the symbol on the ground and weaving the next weave in the list while maintaining an Aes Sedai's composure. All those weaves are supposed to be pretty much harmless and needlessly complicated. In fact, initiates are not supposed to be able to weave anything else. You'd think that putting something into the test that actually put the testee's life in danger and required defense would require penance given that handicap, if it weren't for the whole, "no talking about what happens in the test," rule.

 

I think you are mistaken in your assessment of these tests. We see both Nynaeve and Moiraine's tests. While Nynaeve's was exceessive, it was not that much worse in terms of danger. Moiraine had to endure some pretty grueling stuff.

 

As to the comment about not putting someone in danger, in fact, that is exactly what they do. Women are killed in these tests. The danger is real, and the Aes Sedai are expected to put the woman in very real danger. What is not expected is excessive danger. Not like 100 weaves of thousands of shadowspawn. But danger in itself is a part of the test. It is danger the woman can deal with, but if she doesn't, she will get hurt, possibly killed.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[TristanWebb]

But you aren't supposed to channel until you reach the sign and then you can only channel one thing. Faith in the Way of the Leaf would probably help you there rather than trying to hit anything that was sent against you. Of course they could just have some big guy standing in a doorway saying 'I won't move unless you kill me with that knife over there'.

[Barid Bel Medar]

But you aren't supposed to channel until you reach the sign and then you can only channel one thing. Faith in the Way of the Leaf would probably help you there rather than trying to hit anything that was sent against you. Of course they could just have some big guy standing in a doorway saying 'I won't move unless you kill me with that knife over there'.

 

They wouldn't go THAT far, I don't think. And yeah, it would help in that situation, but when they reach the point and they can channel, they would be tested.

 

Obviously I don't know the specifics of what each test involves, but my point is, Aes Sedai use these tests to make sure that these women are dedicated to the Tower above all else. No woman would be able to become Aes Sedai if she couldn't put her beliefs aside for the greater good of the White Tower. I mean, they wouldn't make them kill random people just to prove a point, but I am sure every former Tinker who is successfully raised to the Shawl would be capable of killing Shadowspawn.

 

When you have a former Tinker, with such a huge "weakness", you can be sure that they would make sure the woman could put aside her beliefs for the Tower.

 

Besides, they were thrown out of their homes by their families at like 14-16, I doubt they would have the Way of the Leaf so ingrained in their minds at that point, nor would they have much desire to follow it.

 

Overall point, not a big deal with Green former Tinkers.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Terez]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

 

Herid Fel? He understood the true nature of the wheel and knew this battle has been fought many times before. Fel was on the verge of giving Rand the information needed to seal the bore so a gholam was sent to kill him...

 

This is the common assumption, but I rather like the theory that Sammael had him killed because he believed that Fel was Asmodean in disguise. After all, Sammael was the one who found the gholam in his stasis box. He told Carridin the very next day that he would send the gholam to deal with the channelers going after the stash. And Sammael appears to care nothing for philosophy, so the Asmodean explanation is more believable. He never believed that Asmodean was dead.

[Suttree]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

 

Herid Fel? He understood the true nature of the wheel and knew this battle has been fought many times before. Fel was on the verge of giving Rand the information needed to seal the bore so a gholam was sent to kill him...

 

This is the common assumption, but I rather like the theory that Sammael had him killed because he believed that Fel was Asmodean in disguise. After all, Sammael was the one who found the gholam in his stasis box. He told Carridin the very next day that he would send the gholam to deal with the channelers going after the stash. And Sammael appears to care nothing for philosophy, so the Asmodean explanation is more believable. He never believed that Asmodean was dead.

 

Hmm interesting. I recall reading that at some point but never knew how much traction it had as a theory.

[capuga]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

 

Herid Fel? He understood the true nature of the wheel and knew this battle has been fought many times before. Fel was on the verge of giving Rand the information needed to seal the bore so a gholam was sent to kill him...

 

I think he's talking about the guy that made the looking glasses and telescopes. As far as I can remember he's still alive and making ever more powerful telescopes at Rand's academy in Cairhien.

[Lisa Campbell]

Ya Tovere's looking glasses that could see the moon (projected) was what I got. Can you clarify why you think he died Queen's?

[Thrasymachus]

It had been a while since I've read New Spring, so I wasn't sure whether or how much of Moiraine's testing we saw. I still maintain that it is some cultural aspect of the Tinkers themselves that's more responsible for the lack of Leafy Sedai than the Sedai. Not counting the Aiel, we know of two Tinkers who've left Tinker society, Aisling and Aram, and both, upon leaving Tinker society, went the diametrically opposite way, one joining the Battle Ajah, and the other becoming for all intents and purposes a blademaster, even though he never earned the heron. That hints to me that former Tinkers actively rejecting the Way of the Leaf when they are cast out of Tinker society has more to do with the Tinkers as a culture than with wherever the outcasts end up.

 

It strikes me as unlikely that the Aes Sedai wouldn't be accommodating for a Tuath'a'an initiate who wanted to maintain ties to her people and keep to the Way. The Tower makes use of the cultural heritage of their members when they can in order to advance the Tower's knowledge and influence. I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any interest in getting an "in" with the Tinkers to find out what their history is or to try to bring Tinker culture to greater acceptance around the world. They'd know pretty much certainly which ajah such an initiate would ask to join if she shawled, and since the tests are tailored, I see no reason the tests wouldn't be tailored with that ajah in mind. I can certainly see not letting a dyed-in-the-wool pacifist into the Greens or the Reds, or even possibly the Blues, but the Yellows, Whites, possibly the Browns and Grays, I don't see too much of an issue there. I wouldn't send a Yellow Tinker in as a battlefield medic, but there's plenty of use for her well behind the front-lines.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Thrasymachus

[Terez]

Question. Why was that guy who made inventions (tovere?) killed and do we ever find out who killed him? Anybody know who I am talking about? Maybe it was mentioned but either I missed it or I forgot

 

Herid Fel? He understood the true nature of the wheel and knew this battle has been fought many times before. Fel was on the verge of giving Rand the information needed to seal the bore so a gholam was sent to kill him...

 

I think he's talking about the guy that made the looking glasses and telescopes. As far as I can remember he's still alive and making ever more powerful telescopes at Rand's academy in Cairhien.

 

Since Kin Tovere wasn't killed, it's probably a pretty good assumption he meant Herid Fel.

[mb]

The "no talking about the test" rule, I take that applies to the test to become Accepted; not the test to become Aes Sedia.

 

Herid Fel's death; so far the books give no reason. And it seems that neither author commented on it.

[Terez]

Herid Fel's death; so far the books give no reason. And it seems that neither author commented on it.

 

You would be wrong about that.

[Suttree]

Herid Fel's death; so far the books give no reason. And it seems that neither author commented on it.

 

Considering the discussions he had with Rand, the last note he gave, and the quote below, the books hint pretty strongly at the reason...

 

ACoS

"I’m glad you came," he said suddenly, still staring at the ceiling. "I’ve been sitting here alone. Alone." He gave a bitter bark of a laugh. "Herid Fel is dead."

 

"No," she whispered, "not that sweet little old man." Her eyes stung.

 

"He was torn apart." Rand’s voice was so tired. So empty. "Idrien fainted when she found him. She lay in a stupor half the night, and was nearly incoherent when finally roused. One of the other women at the school gave her something to make her sleep. She was embarrassed about that. When she came to me, she started crying again and... It had to be Shadowspawn. What else could tear a man limb from limb?" Without raising his head, he smacked a fist down on the chair arm so hard the wood creaked. "But why? Why was he killed? What could he have told me?"

 

Min tried to think. She truly did. Master Fel was a philosopher; he and Rand discussed everything from the meaning of parts of the Prophecies of the Dragon to the nature of the hole into the Dark One’s prison. He let her borrow books, fascinating books, especially where she had to work to puzzle out what it was they said. He had been a philosopher. He would never lend her a book again.

 

We know Min is going to find the answer for Rand from Fel's books. So without discounting other theories it is readily apparent what most obvious reason is.

[mb]

That scene I count as just speculation on the reason.

[Suttree]

That scene I count as just speculation on the reason.

 

True, but when pieced together with all the rest?