Personal opinions of tWoT series. *warning - highly negative*

[unassigned]

*********SPOILER ALERT*********

 

I finished The Gathering Storm yesterday after a second re-read of the entire series and I've come to some final conclusions about tWoT series that I'd like to share.

 

In my opinion, although TGS was quite good, it arrived too late in the series. Lord of Chaos is in my opinion where the series begins to run aground. The pace of the story deteriorates. Action is replaced by character focus and as a result the series suffers. During this period Mat, Perrin and Egwene become locked into situational patterns which in my opinion didn't make for very good reading and don't make a valid contribution to the series as a whole considering the time it took REMOVED SPOILERS for them to bear fruit. Mat has been in the vicinity of Ebou Dar for a period of 6 books the only truly substantial segment of which is the development of his relationship with Tuon and the rest of which is essentially inconsequential to the overall plot of the series. He is one of my favourite characters but I believe Jordan has been writing him in circles for sometime now and more so Perrin who becomes completely sidetracked on loose sideplots ( Masema, Shaido, Whitecloaks) which I feel have no true relevance to the overall story in their current quantities. Perrin isn't moving forwards, he is moving sideways. Egwene becomes bogged down in the Aes Sedai camp locked in political intrigues which I infact didn't find the least bit intriguing. The only thing I took away from that was an intense dislike for Aes Sedai in general. Aes Sedai are apparently the stewards of the world in tWoT series but at their core they are nothing but manipulators striving for personal gain. They pass judgement on rumour and usually get the wrong end of the stick. Personally, while reading the series I felt that Jordan captured the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends wonderfully. He doesn't say particularly much on the subject of them but modern day Aes Sedai are a farcry from the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends both in the Power and just the general ideal that they are something greater than petty squabblers and that is unfortunate for the reason that Jordan gives modern day Aes Sedai perspectives a lot of weight in book quantity which furthermore sets the tone.

 

The main example of this is their perspective of Rand. Every Aes Sedai in the series besides Moraine seems to see him; and in turn portray him in one dimension. Negatively. Its like jabbing him with ten thousand needles. One needle alone makes little difference. All of them together however.... These views of theirs which are made in ignorance more often than not are usually false and are expressed in substantial chapter quantities throughout the entire series which I personally find arduous.

 

It makes liking them difficult if not altogether impossible. Rand is the main character after all. Cadsuane is a character which I believe was a poor addition to the series. As a relatively late edition to the series I don't believe her character was developed very well. We still essentially know nothing about her. Her legendary status among Aes Sedai was conveniently shoved in. She's antagonistic, fulfilling the negative extension that Aes Sedai in the series seem to adhere to, which is made all the more worse by the fact that Rand's personality traits are written to facilitate her purpose there. Those character traits downgrade his status as a worthy hero in my eyes. REMOVED SPOILERS. Their negative interactions from Book 7-11 make for some arduous reading. I believe that situation should have been resolved in between a book or two and is noway worthy of expanding across 6 books. In principle it was an acceptable piece of character development, Cadsuane as a mentor, REMOVED SPOILERS.

 

Cadsuane never seemed to truly respect who she was dealing with unlike Moirane who was the only Aes Sedai who identified with who he really is even when she was criticrising him and as a result of that she degrades Rand's status in the story which I personally find irritating. She demands respect without showing any in return. Moirane was the only Aes Sedai in the entire series who's character interacted well with Rand complimenting him as the Dragon Reborn.REMOVED SPOILERS

 

A major disappointment in the series was the whole series of events following Rand's cleansing of the source. I was genuinely excited to see the reactions of all the characters following this pivotal point. I was dumbfounded, to say the least, to what it was we got instead. People either didn't believe that Rand cleansed the source, they just responded like you told them it stopped raining outside with a nod of the head ( Egwene's reaction) or most people didn't even know. He didn't even get credit for it. The cleansing was perhaps one of the most important moments in the series and it was lessened because the reaction to it was fumbled. And where the act should have broken down the walls of the Aes Sedai's distaste, suspicion and distrust regarding male channeler's it does no such thing. The Aes Sedai still see themselves as superior to the Asha'man. They still try to manipulate.

 

We are continuously reminded during the fraction of the rebels from The White Tower that the Tower is "broken". The truth of it is that the Aes Sedai have been broken for 3000 years with only female Aes Sedai since the Breaking. Saidin and Saidar are stronger together than they are apart and this should be seen as a symbol for both male and female channelers. But the female Aes Sedai see themselves as separate. They don't see that male channeler's should be Aes Sedai themselves. We get to see Aes Sedai and Asha'man interact through the warder bond. But the bond itself implies inferiority. It implies subservience. It highlights the true division. Siuan explains to Egwene that the Oath Rod is what makes them Aes Sedai. It is never said if the Oath Rod was used by Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends and if it wasn't what exactly did it mean to be Aes Sedai during those times. I just expected some development in this area but nothing really changed. The distrust, distaste and all the previous negativity remained. Yes, perhaps the gap between will be bridged in some measure or other but there is only 2 books left to do that. It just seems so natural to me that men should become Aes Sedai even when taking into account the 3000 years since it was last that way. It is hard to like the Aes Sedai as they are now. Aes Sedai means "Servant to All" or some such. I see it as a birth right that men should be allowed to become Aes Sedai if they so wish it. The White Tower in its current state is completely unlikeable. And obsolete in many respects now that men can channel safe of the taint. REMOVED SPOILERS.

 

I find many of Jordan's main female characters difficult to digest. Many of his main female characters have an unfortunate amount of negativity toward the male characters. Rand and Mat tend to bear the brunt of this. Rand as a character particularly suffers in this regard when large segments of the material are told from the female narrative. Their view of him is in my opinion very important and as such when characters like Nynaeve who are supposed to be his friend and characters like Elayne and Min who he is imtimate with express seemingly offhand negative attacks all characters involved suffer from it. I don't believe that Jordan intended for those comments to be light hearted or humourous. I in fact take the character views quite seriously and because of that it is hard to like some of his female characters. I feel Elayne subtracts quite a great detail from the quality of the series when she is in the narrative. She brings nothing to the table and is completely undeserving as a love interest for Rand. There are times during tWoT series where Elayne and Nynaeve seem to have good character development such as when they thank Mat in Ebou Dar for the time he rescued them from the Stone of Tear. But the moment they leave the room we discover that it was completely insincere. Elayne only did it because of Aviendha and it changes nothing about the way she acts in the future. Such reversions in character development incongruously occur with great frequency in the series. Progress becomes undone with an offhand negative thought in the narrative. Even Egwene is guilty of this at times, especially again in regards to Rand, in previous books of the series REMOVED SPOILERS. Rand truly is done an injustice by the main female characters in this series by undeserved remarks about his capability or supposed action or inaction on one thing or another. Even the times it seems that the women are right about some point or another the casual remarks come off as unnecessarily hostile and from out of nowhere. Aviendha seems to be the only one who cuts him some slack. Its strange how some of Jordan's female characters annoy the hell out of me in the narrative but others like Aviendha and Tuon I really enjoy reading. Faile isn't terribly interesting but then again she isn't terribly offensive like Elayne who dominates chapters.

 

Something which I found simultaneously bad and hysterically laughable regarding Elayne in Knife of Dreams was the chapter where she attempts to capture the two Black sisters in Caemlyn with Vandene, Careane and Sareitha only to in turn get captured herself and rescued by Birgitte and twelve thousand Queens Guard. During the whole affair she didn't feel any fear at all because Min had a viewing saying she wouldn't be harmed until her babies where born. So...she knew that either Sareitha or Careane was of the Black Ajah and yet decided to try capturing two others of the Black while putting her babies in danger but of course she believes her babies weren't in danger cause Min said so. She expresses a desire to keep the fact that Rand is the father of her children secret so she can keep them safe from his enemies then goes off and tries to apprehend two Black sisters in a group of 4 where 1 of the other 2 could also be Black. Oh! Good Job Elayne! I see why you didn't join the White! (This just goes to show how all kind of stupid Elayne really is. The image I get of her is of being lowered into a trolloc cookpot surrounded by hordes of trollocs feeling absolutely no fear while saying "I am in no danger because Min said so.") So she gets Vandene and Sareitha killed not to mention all of their Warders, then gets hundreds of Queens Guards killed just because she is a stone blind brainless idiot. Of course, she momentarily feels some small sadness for Vandene and Sareitha conveniently ignoring all the dead and dying soldiers who foolishly tried to save her while simultaneously taking no responsibility whatsoever for her actions. Those few chapters just about sum up Elayne and her total blemish on the series as a whole.

 

The relationship between Rand and his three women is something I can accept if not entirely like not just for the (in my eyes) unorthodoxy of it but because of the balance between Rand and three of them individually. I'll repeat myself by saying I don't believe Elayne is a deserving love interest for Rand just because of the way she acts both in general and toward him. The situation as a whole is rather contrived but the balance between Rand and each of them isn't yet clearly defined. They are willing to share him and yet he has conveniently had each of them one at a time usually in different locations. The so far non-existant complexities of it in my opinion detract from the main story displaying only convenience and hence waffle, it might have been easier for him to have just one love interest but as it stands the complexities aren't fleshed out yet. We have only seen the convenience of it. Only once have they all been together in Caemlyn when they bonded him and that in itself showed the difficulties of the situation with his...feelings coming through the bond to Min and Aviendha, also showing the awkwardness between Min and Aviendha. My main problem with the whole situation is that it demonstrates more convenience than it does the true complexity of the relationships. Perhaps we will see more in the future two installments. But until then I believe that the creation of such a complex set of relationships between Rand and his women was a bad idea. Elayne has barely spent any time around him. Aviendha has been more physically intimate with him than openly emotionally affectionate. Min has been both physically and emotionally intimate with him and has spent a great deal more time around him than the other two. She has been constantly with him since around Book 6 making it look more like a one on one relationship than anything else. Min is the only one of the three who currently knows who he is and only because she is stuck to him 24/7. Balance?  Of course you could raise the question as to why they fell in love with him in the first place and him with them. The answer is convenience because no other answer was given. It just is. The same as the way they share him. It just is.

 

I think the relationships between Rand and his women is one aspect of tWoT series Jordan allowed to get away from himself considering that there are only two remaining books and both Aviendha and Elayne don't have the equally intimiate relationship that Min has with him and has had for a very long time in the series. Which is unfortunate for the quality to the series. Considering how much the last two books have to tie up in the series, I can't see much being dedicated to the relationships Rand has with Aviendha and Elayne. Perhaps quality will make up for quantity but if it doesn't there won't be an equal balance in those relationships before all is said and done.

 

A few final points. In Winter's Heart I can't say I much enjoyed how easily the Forsaken were held off by Asha'man linked with Aes Sedai. I believe Jordan made the Forsaken too weak at this juncture.

 

Sarene and Corele with the Asha'man Damer Flinn versus Demandred. And Demandred was instantly forced back. Consider for a moment that Elayne and Egwene had the best potential in the Tower for a thousand years and then consider what Moirane said of their potential next to Nynaeve. Like a candle beside a bonfire. Consider how weak Sarene and Corele must be to have already reached their potential. And linking with Damer Flinn isn't transferring all of that potential to whoever is leading the circle. So, an Asha'man who has been channeling for what, little over a year maybe. Versus Demandred, who lived in the Age of Legends, the pinnacle of civilisation and things done with the One Power barely dreamed of. You would think he would know weaves Flinn could barely dream of. And Flinn pushes him back instantly. Yes, Demandred isn't a soldier but still...I find it very hard to accept.

 

Nesune, Beldeine, Daigian linked with Eben Hopwil versus Aran'gar. Daigan, the weakest in the power leading. And only Hopwil, the strongest in the power in the link, is killed. Managing to hold saidan long enough for Daigan to force back Aran'gar. I also find this incredibly hard to believe.

 

Verin and Kumira linked with Shalon. Against Graendal. lol. Graendal who managed to use compulsion on both Lanfear and Moghedien and only Kumira is killed.

 

Why would Graendal stop there. Why would any of them. Makes no sense.

 

Elza and Merise were linked with Jahar who held Callandor. Elza being able to overpower Osan'gar aka Aginor by shear strength coming from Callandor is understandable but the only other thing they used Callandor for initially was for attacking opening gateways.

 

I just found the entire battle unimaginative and making little sense to what we already know in how truly superior in weaves and power the Forsaken are supposed to be. Cadsuane holding up a shield over the hilltop...Even with an angreal her strength should have been insignificant in the face of the other Forsaken. Compare Cadsuane in this situation to Alivia who is stronger than Nynaeve in the power using an angreal plus various other ter'angreal and Lanfear as Cyndane defeated her in raw strength. If Lanfear can do that to Alivia who was using an angreal what hope had Cadsuane who is also using an angreal. All they used was a "strange form of lightning" on the shield. You would expect that from an Aes Sedai or an Asha'man man but not one of the Forsaken. Aes Sedai and Asha'man lived where they should have died and Cadsuane shouldn't have stood a chance with that shield.

 

I also found it highly convenient that the female access key melted. It was clear that Rand held and used far more saidan than Nynaeve could with saidar. I believe the comparison was put in terms of "Dragonmount next to a foothill" and yet the male access key wasn't destroyed. Considering how little of the power Nynaeve could hold through the female access key its obvious that it didn't reach its maximum potential. I don't believe it was mentioned in the book but other sources point to the fact that the access key melted because of the amount of saidar held. Doesn't make sense.

 

All of my views here are in the context of the series as a whole. Unfortunately, after having re-read the series a second time so it would be fresh in my mind when I read The Gathering Storm I've come to the conclusion that the series is at times unenjoyable to read out of pure frustration. As much good as it has going for it there is also a great deal the series is lacking. At times its Jordan's writing style which fails the series, at times its the characters or simply the lack of anything happening. Some have said that the series became too voluminous and I would have to agree with that. The best, in my view, that can be hoped for from the series now is for the final two books to recreate the success of TGS but I don't believe that many things will be changed at this point. The series is just going to play itself out but I will always, sadly feel, that it is lacking in quality in certain segments of the series. I know this thread is highly negative but it is just my personal opinion and I don't mean to offend. Its just for me tWoT runs along a lot of negative lines. Things that should be positive are negative and strife among characters for petty things are prominent. The characters I mentioned just annoy me to no end. I don't know why they are even in the series. They exacerbate everything around them and for no apparent reason other than to whine about things on general principle. They would fit the profile of sociopaths if they gave voice to their offhand thoughts more often, its unfortunate we need to read those thoughts every paragraph or two. They really have an unwholesome effect on events in my opinion.

 

Would enjoy reading some responses and viewpoints whether you agree or disagree with my points. Again, this is just my personal opinion. I really mean no offense. Truly just felt the need to express my frustration at some aspects of tWoT series. Aspects which I feel should or could have been absent.

 

 

Edit- Cleaned out all TGS spoilers, those are still not allowed on this board.

 

[mb]

Gathering Storm content is only allowed only in the two Gathering Storm sections.

 

[unassigned]

Apologies.  :)

[Balefire to da face!]

It makes liking them difficult if not altogether impossible. Rand is the main character after all. Cadsuane is a character which I believe was a poor addition to the series. As a relatively late edition to the series I don't believe her character was developed very well. We still essentially know nothing about her. Her legendary status among Aes Sedai was conveniently shoved in. She's antagonistic, fulfilling the negative extension that Aes Sedai in the series seem to adhere to, which is made all the more worse by the fact that Rand's personality traits are written to facilitate her purpose there. Those character traits downgrade his status as a worthy hero in my eyes. The situation between Cadsuane and Rand goes on far too long stretching from Book 6/7 only to be resolved in Book 12. Their negative interactions from Book 6-11 make for some arduous reading. I believe that situation should have been resolved in between a book or two and is noway worthy of expanding across 6 books. In principle it was an acceptable piece of character development, Cadsuane as a mentor, but the payoff came far too late and as such collapses under its own weight. Their interactions between their meeting and the outcome was always going to be tense and difficult but lasting that long it did more harm than good. Infecting large portions of the plots and characters involved with an unhealthy cast.

 

Cadsuane never seemed to truly respect who she was dealing with unlike Moirane who was the only Aes Sedai who identified with who he really is even when she was criticrising him and as a result of that she degrades Rand's status in the story which I personally find irritating. She demands respect without showing any in return. Moirane was the only Aes Sedai in the entire series who's character interacted well with Rand complimenting him as the Dragon Reborn. Unfortunately what little progress was made in that chapter between Rand and Cadsuane reverted soon after. She goes back to call him, "a fool", "Al'Thor boy" and "young Al'Thor". Which many if not all Aes Sedai seem to do. There is only so many times you can read such things before tolerance is lost and you start to believe them, seeing him as he is portrayed in their eyes. Overall, Rands character was only diminished to facilitate Cadsuane's annoying presence.

 

I won't respond to the whole post because I agree with a good deal of it, or at least some of the points you make for each topic. This, however, I feel is a classic case of how many people misunderstand Cadsuane.

 

Moiraine's job was nothing compared to what Cadsuane has had to deal with. Moiraine guided an ignorant sheepherder to becoming the Dragon Reborn. Tried to teach him how to rule and make difficult decisions. That's...about...it.

 

Cadsuane has had to deal with a Rand that is losing his frickin mind. Has been tortured by Aes Sedai. Has a huge festering boil of guilt growing inside of him from killing women. And trusts no one...especially Aes Sedai.

 

You wanna know why Cadsuane doesn't show Rand "respect". Because she is trying to constantly keep Rand off balance so he doesn't just sweep her aside like he has everyone else. Along with trying to teach him a little bit of what he has lost. She is riding a lion and trying not to fall off. In this way, you can see that Cadsuane not only respects Rand, but probably respects him more then any other Aes Sedai out there.

 

You have to read between the lines....past the superficial mask that Cadsuane weaves....and look at her actions around Rand. She respects him plenty. Because she knows that she has to tread carefully around him. She knows she can't just order him around. She has built up his trust by offering advice, and letting Rand make his own decisions. Letting him figure out for himself that her advice is usually good advice.

 

And while I agree that some storylines were dragged on too long, I felt the interaction with Cadsuane was done just right. It wasn't an overwhelming storyline. It was in the background of many other storylines, so it didn't dominate the story. It served just as it should. As a slow build up to one of the biggest issues of the entire series; what exactly will Rand be at TG, a hero or an empty shell who almost might as well be a villian?

 

A couple of sidenotes, I am almost sure you are wrong about book 6. Cads was introduced in book 7. And the idea that thier relationship could be resolved "inbetween books" is hard to imagine. Whether you like it or not, it is vital that that storyline has had a slow build. Like I said, I totally agree with storylines like Perrin went on for far too long, but in the case of Cads....the storyline had to simmer. A quick fix would have been absolutely pointless.

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

We are continuously reminded during the fraction of the rebels from The White Tower that the Tower is "broken". The truth of it is that the Aes Sedai have been broken for 3000 years with only female Aes Sedai since the Breaking. Saidin and Saidar are stronger together than they are apart and this should be seen as a symbol for both male and female channelers. But the female Aes Sedai see themselves as separate. They don't see that male channeler's should be Aes Sedai themselves. We get to see Aes Sedai and Asha'man interact through the warder bond. But the bond itself implies inferiority. It implies subservience. It highlights the true division. Siuan explains to Egwene that the Oath Rod is what makes them Aes Sedai. It is never said if the Oath Rod was used by Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends and if it wasn't what exactly did it mean to be Aes Sedai during those times. I just expected some development in this area but nothing really changed. The distrust, distaste and all the previous negativity remained. Yes, perhaps the gap between will be bridged in some measure or other but there is only 2 books left to do that. It just seems so natural to me that men should become Aes Sedai even when taking into account the 3000 years since it was last that way. It is hard to like the Aes Sedai as they are now. Aes Sedai means "Servant to All" or some such. I see it as a birth right that men should be allowed to become Aes Sedai if they so wish it. The White Tower in its current state is completely unlikeable. And obsolete in many respects now that men can channel safe of the taint. Because Jordan put so much time in setting Egwene up as Amrylin I don't truly believe that any intention to "reforge" the Tower as it should be reforged will occur and things will just go on as before.

 

Seriously?  Would you really expect 3000 years of distrust and hatred to disappear over night based on one event?  Do you know nothing of human nature?  I'm sorry but no matter how monumentious an event may be it is not simply going to erase 3000 year of prejudice.  Moreover, we are talking about an event that the female channelers can't even be sure really occurred.   The AS can neither channel not detect saiden and therefore they have no way of verifying that the male half of the source has really been cleansed.  Therefore it is understandable that they continue to distrust the Asha'man.  For them to suddenly embrace the men who can channel would be egregiously unrealistic.   The progress they have made in bridging the gap between AS and AM is astounding when all things are taken into consideration.

 

Aes Sedai are apparently the stewards of the world in tWoT series but at their core they are nothing but manipulators striving for personal gain. They pass judgement on rumour and usually get the wrong end of the stick. Personally, while reading the series I felt that Jordan captured the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends wonderfully. He doesn't say particularly much on the subject of them but modern day Aes Sedai are a farcry from the Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends both in the Power and just the general ideal that they are something greater than petty squabblers and that is unfortunate for both the reasons that Jordan gives modern day Aes Sedai perspectives a lot of weight in book quantity which sets the tone.

 

I think one of the things that Jordan has attempted to do in this series is bring to realism to fantasy.  I believe he intentionally made the AS this way so as to reflect the so called "stewards" or mankind that exist in the real world ie political parties, governments, and even some religious organizations.   All of these things were initially set up to be altruistic guardians of the people but over time become greedy, self serving and corrupt.   Over the 3000 years since the AOL much the same thing has happened to the AS.  I think some progress will be made in reforming the White Tower but to expect all the greed and self-service to go away in such a short period would again be realistic.  I do think the Egwene will set the back on the right track, but even when the story ends they will have a long way to go in returning the AS to their true purpose.   I also think that Jordan wrote the AS this way in order to thumb his nose at all the convenient and unrealistically altruistic stewards that exist in other fantasy novels.

 

As for the battle at the cleansing of Saidin, I think this was meant to be a microcaseum of what needs to occur at TG.  The forces of the light prevailed during this battle because they were united and cooperative while the Shadow functioned as individuals and approached the battle in an unorganized and chaotic fashion.   The Shadow is by nature chaotic and the only order can defeat it.  This is why north and east must be one, south and west must be one, the two must become one.  The theme of the book is order triumphing over chaos.

 

I agree that Cadsuane's appearance in the novel was rather sudden.  It would have worked much better if there had been storiesof her circulating since TEotW, as opposed to the legendary AS just appearing out of nowhere with no prior mention.   I do think that a large part of her purpose in the story is to function as a poor man's Moiraine, that is to say that Moiraine truly is the one and only AS who can properly guide the Dragon Reborn to TG.  Even the legendary Cadsuane falls short in this area.   Therefore, Cadsuane's failure only emphasizes the importance of Moiraine and show just how much is at stake in Mat and Thom's attempt to rescue her.  Not that Cadsuane is totally useless, the is just an imperfect mentor for the Dragon Reborn.

 

Something which I found simultaneously bad and hysterically laughable regarding Elayne in Knife of Dreams was the chapter where she attempts to capture the two Black sisters in Caemlyn with Vandene, Careane and Sareitha only to in turn get captured herself and rescued by Birgitte and twelve thousand Queens Guard. During the whole affair she didn't feel any fear at all because Min had a viewing saying she wouldn't be harmed until her babies where born. So...she knew that either Sareitha or Careane was of the Black Ajah and yet decided to try capturing two others of the Black while putting her babies in danger but of course she believes her babies weren't in danger cause Min said so. She expresses a desire to keep the fact that Rand is the father of her children secret so she can keep them safe from his enemies then goes off and tries to apprehend two Black sisters in a group of 4 where 1 of the other 2 could also be Black. Oh! Good Job Elayne! I see why you didn't join the White! (This just goes to show how all kind of stupid Elayne really is. The image I get of her is of being lowered into a trolloc cookpot surrounded by hordes of trollocs feeling absolutely no fear while saying "I am in no danger because Min said so.") So she gets Vandene and Sareitha killed not to mention all of their Warders, then gets hundreds of Queens Guards killed just because she is a stone blind brainless idiot. Of course, she momentarily feels some small sadness for Vandene and Sareitha conveniently ignoring all the dead and dying soldiers who foolishly tried to save her while simultaneously taking no responsibility whatsoever for her actions. Those few chapters just about sum up Elayne and her total blemish on the series as a whole.

 

I couldn't agree more on this point, I have always seen Elayne as a blemish on the series and found her reaction to Min's assurance that she would live to see her children born to be foolhardy and irresponsible.   Although I know it won't happen I think a great ironic twist would be if she were captured and forceablly turned to The Shadow because of her rash actions.  Because she can give birth to two healthy children while serving the Shadow.   Come to think of it I'm not overly fond of Gawin or Morgase either so Trakands in general tend to rub me the wrong way.

 

I have enjoyed Mat and Egwene's storylines but I do agree the Perrin has gotten off on a tangent and has made very little forward progress, but then again the relevance of defeating the Shaido, ridding the world of The Prophet and binding the Whitecloaks to Rand (probably) may be illuminated in the next two volumes so I will not pass judgement until the series is completed.

 

 

[unassigned]

 

Seriously?  Would you really expect 3000 years of distrust and hatred to disappear over night based on one event?  Do you know nothing of human nature?  I'm sorry but no matter how monumentious an event may be it is not simply going to erase 3000 year of prejudice.  Moreover, we are talking about an event that the female channelers can't even be sure really occurred.   The AS can neither channel not detect saiden and therefore they have no way of verifying that the male half of the source has really been cleansed.  Therefore it is understandable that they continue to distrust the Asha'man.  For them to suddenly embrace the men who can channel would be egregiously unrealistic.   The progress they have made in bridging the gap between AS and AM is astounding when all things are taken into consideration.

 

 

The source of the distaste came from men who chose or were born with the ability to channel, the result of which before the cleansing was madness. The number of male channelers in the series since the Breaking was relatively small. It wasn't something many men chose. The main example of that would be false dragons. There weren't hundreds of male channelers at any one time, from what was mentioned I don't believe there were even dozens at any one time. And even the Reds couldn't find men who could eventually learn to channel but who themselves didn't know they could. All evidence points to the fact that there were very few male channelers since the Breaking. The evidence of this is shown when some Aes Sedai expressed the belief that they were culling the ability to channel, in both men and women ( i.e the limited number of novices found per year), out of people because of the gentled male channelers found.

 

Since the cleansing the distaste Aes Sedai feel about male channelers should no longer exist. The distaste was of the Dark One's touch on saidan and hence the resulting madness from the taint. Considering the recent discovery of over 200 Black sisters I can't see how Aes Sedai would distrust an Asha'man or a young man who wants to learn to channel any more than they would a female initiate of the Tower.

 

Also, the Aes Sedai did receive confirmation that saidan was cleansed via linking. Narishma linked with Merise several times including when Narishma held Callandor when Rand was cleansing saidan. So she was aware of the taint even before the cleansing thus being able to differentiate tainted saidan from clean. But it took her time to confirm it was gone because saidan was so alien to her. Merise presents this information later to the rebel Hall under Egwene.

 

I wasn't looking for an instant re-structuring of the Tower. Yes, that would have been unrealistic. The Asha'man could hardly instantly become Aes Sedai the way the Aes Sedai themselves handle initiates. What I was hoping for was a small step in bridging the gap between Aes Sedai and Asha'man. Just the beginnings of it. The Asha'man bonding Aes Sedai under Taim's order and Rand in turn letting an equal number of Asha'man be bonded only perpetuated the cycle of animosity instead of promoting some policy of equality. In essence, one step forward; two steps back.

[alligator]

I love the WoT series, I really really do, but I have to agree with you on a lot of your points. Books, oh, 8-11 were really hard for me. Perrin was always my favorite character but he has done nothing for the last couple of books. I really wanted him to do awesome things with the wolves. Anyways, I wish Elayne could drop out of the series. She does nothing for them. Ever. At all. She never has. Oh well. And the insistence on stupid gender ideas is horrifying.

Somehow, I still love to read the books, though. I guess because there are stupid people in real life and the fact that I don't like or agree with all of the characters makes the WoT universe seem that much more realistic.

[Zidel333]

Bravo. This is a very well thought out argument against WoT. I particularly agree re: characterization and time length. RJ did a great disservice by not speed up certain things, and (in light of his great verbosity) fail to adequately describe certain scenes -- Cleansing of Saidin, I'm looking at you.

 

However, I must take arms against your concerns against female characters. For the record, I am a woman, but I just don't care for *most all* female characters in the series. RJ did this on purpose, and creating inherently unequal power and political dynamics in men and women, because if anything the 3rd Age is about gender inequality. It's one of the great themes of the series really. You get all these great comparison to the AoL where men and women were equals, but in the 3rd Age you get women as being overly powerful to a fault. Most major monarchs (such as Andor) and councils (such as Far Madding) are ruled by women, not to mention the 3,000 year dynasty of the Aes Sedai. It's an integral part of Rand's breaking: to help bring male solvency back into the world. Further, the lack of good or interesting female characters makes you root for Rand! With *all* the discussion on balance and sharing in WoT, power dynamics is one section where WoT shows it's only mere philosophy even though it should be more. One could conceivably call it anti-feminist, this downscaling of women. However, doing so fails to understand that this flawed power dynamic needs to be fixed. We cannot full understand Randland in light of our own misogynistic history, but we should at least try to appreciate the why.

 

(Makes you wonder what RJ is really getting at....)

 

...

 

Yes, WoT is my favorite series, but that doesn't preclude it's many, many flaws. We're better fans for discussing why it doesn't work.

[Eht Slat Meit]

As far as Linked-Flinn vs. Demandred goes, I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Demandred should have known better than to go into a fight like that, because as was pointed out, he's not a soldier. Imagine for a second a big buff guy who is educated at a military school knows all kinds things, but has no fighting experience or training. Now pit him against a SEAL half his size with some hardcore enhancements. The tactician walks into the fight with no prior planning. He's going to get his butt kicked.

 

Now, translate that to Demandred, who is a general-not-a-soldier and pit him against Flinn who is a Tower-trained Asha'Man and happens to be enhanced by linking. Demandred loses, because Demandred is stupid. With some prior planning, Flinn and the sisters would be dead. The fight wouldn't have happened. You can't assume brute force means anything because these people (Forsaken) didn't survive the Age of Legends through sheer brute force. I seem to recall a mention of other Forsaken who died at that time, and Demandred and his ilk were the ones that lived.

[Mr Ares]

What's worse than the poor arguments is that this rant was overlong.

 

We still essentially know nothing about her.

We know enough. She is quite different from most of the other AS we meet. She respected him, dealt with him as a person. She adivsed him rather than trying to control him.

 

I was dumbfounded, to say the least, to what it was we got instead.

It was really only to be expected. People aren't automatically going to assume Rand Cleansed the Source. They won't believe him just because he said he did it. And they have their own problems to worry about.

And where the act should have broken down the walls of the Aes Sedai's distaste, suspicion and distrust regarding male channeler's it does no such thing.

Of course it does no such thing. There is no earthly reason why it should. 3,000 years of prejudice will not go away over night, it will be a long slow process, and the Cleansing is only the beginning.

The Aes Sedai still see themselves as superior to the Asha'man. They still try to manipulate.

Of course. It would be absurd if it was otherwise.

 

It is never said if the Oath Rod was used by Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends and if it wasn't what exactly did it mean to be Aes Sedai during those times.

It wasn't. AS in the AoL were Servants of All.

I just expected some development in this area

You got it. You didn't get a lot, but there's no reason why things should massively change over night.

It just seems so natural to me that men should become Aes Sedai

Seems decidedly unnatural to me. For 3,000 years, the WT has been a female environment. Even if they did start permitting men in, they won't necessarily be welcomed with open arms.

 

I find many of Jordan's main female characters difficult to digest.

We get it. You hate the women. A lot of people don't. Nynaeve is one of my favourtie characters in the series.

 

So...she knew that either Sareitha or Careane was of the Black Ajah and yet decided to try capturing two others of the Black while putting her babies in danger but of course she believes her babies weren't in danger cause Min said so.

Min is always right.

She expresses a desire to keep the fact that Rand is the father of her children secret so she can keep them safe from his enemies then goes off and tries to apprehend two Black sisters in a group of 4 where 1 of the other 2 could also be Black.

Min said they will be born safe. If it gets out that Rand is the father, that is a potential threat after their birth. If she deals with the BA, then she can't get hurt yet, but they can be dealt with. As for the people who died, it happens in war. Say a prayer for your dead and ride on. She's also a better ruler than you give her credit for being, even if her attempts at personal heroism can go a bit pear shaped.

 

I'll repeat myself by saying I don't believe Elayne is a deserving love interest for Rand

Pewople don't always end up with people who they deserve.

Of course you could raise the question as to why they fell in love with him in the first place and him with them.

Yuo can, but it's a bit of a silly question. You don't choose who you fall in love with.

 

And Demandred was instantly forced back.

He retreated when he saw they matched him in strength.

Consider for a moment that Elayne and Egwene had the best potential in the Tower for a thousand years and then consider what Moirane said of their potential next to Nynaeve. Like a candle beside a bonfire.

Consider there might well be an element of exaggeration in that.

Versus Demandred, who lived in the Age of Legends, the pinnacle of civilisation and things done with the One Power barely dreamed of.

Which isn't relevant to his strength. Really, if you had the choice between fighting someone as strong as you, but perhpas not as skilled, and following an easier path to your goal, which would you take? Indirect approach. Strike where the enemy is weak. Maybe Demandred could have beaten Flinn, but he chose to try another way.

 

Nesune, Beldeine, Daigian linked with Eben Hopwil versus Aran'gar. Daigan, the weakest in the power leading. And only Hopwil, the strongest in the power in the link, is killed. Managing to hold saidan long enough for Daigan to force back Aran'gar. I also find this incredibly hard to believe.

Why? It doesn't matter who is strongest, or who is leading. The strength is the same regardless. Eben saw she was a channeler, and attacked while giving the warning.

 

Verin and Kumira linked with Shalon. Against Graendal. lol. Graendal who managed to use compulsion on both Lanfear and Moghedien and only Kumira is killed.

Not a matter of strength. Three on one, linked, with an angreal. Attack head on, or try and find a weak point in the enemy defences?

 

I just found the entire battle unimaginative and making little sense to what we already know in how truly superior in weaves and power the Forsaken are supposed to be.

It made perfect sense. The Chosen are not that much stronger, and their knowledge of weaves is not an instant win. They were outnumbered and outgunned.

Cadsuane holding up a shield over the hilltop...Even with an angreal her strength should have been insignificant in the face of the other Forsaken.

That's not true at all. In fact, we don't know how she compares in strength with a Chosen.

Compare Cadsuane in this situation to Alivia who is stronger than Nynaeve in the power using an angreal plus various other ter'angreal and Lanfear as Cyndane defeated her in raw strength.

Alivia was stronger than Cyndane in this encounter. Cyndane survived due to her greater knowledge.

 

I also found it highly convenient that the female access key melted.

And the female Choedan Kal. It didn't melt due to how much was used, but due to how it was used - saidar was under greater strain that saidin.

 

Most major monarchs (such as Andor) and councils (such as Far Madding) are ruled by women,

Actually, it's pretty even. Arad Doman, Tear, Illian, Amadicia, two of the Borderland nations and Cairhien, for example, are all in the hands of male rulers (or mostly male) as of the start of the series.

Further, the lack of good or interesting female characters makes you root for Rand!

I don't agree that there is such a lack. There is a flawed power dynamic in the series, that does need to be fixed, but it is not "women in charge", it's "women and men not working together".

 

This is a very well thought out argument against WoT.

No, it isn't.

[Vulgir]

Unassigned are you Terry Goodkind?

[Spilt-pea Soup]

I agree with the OP on some things.  It is a no-brainer that the series got mired somewhere around book 7 and just recently became unstuck (thanks BS!).  Perrin with the Shaido, Egwene and the tower split, and Elayne in Andor, Mat with Tuon--these plots took way too long to resolve.  Political intrigue is not really RJ's strong suit, and I found the whole Tower split plot and Elayne plots lacking in this department.  Something the OP didn't mention is how fond RJ is of kidnapping as a plot device.  It got old, at least to me.

 

That said, I think the OP might be expecting these characters to act in a ridiculous fashion.  A lot of readers wanted to see jubilation or awe or a big kumbaya moment between the Ashaman and AS after the taint was removed, but that isn't realistic.  The characters in the series are characters.  They are not privy to the information that we as readers are, and I think they acted in character.  Disbelief is to be expected considering the taint has been around a long time.  Also, the Ashaman aren't exactly rid of the taint.  What damage its done has to be dealt with, which would put a damper on any jubilation. 

 

As far as the WT becoming whole again--what are you smoking and give me some of it.  If you think the AS are going to give up any power in the tower hierarchy you're insane.  It wouldn't be in character for them, or for ANY political system anywhere in the entire history of the world ever.  But especially not for the AS.

 

 

[DPT24]

Did the books go too long?  Possibly.  Although, I like the attention to details RJ gives.  I thought Path of Daggers was my least favoirite, it seemed to lack a focus, but thats just me. 

 

  I liked Elayne, but, she was really reckless after Mins viewing.  I don't think she's a bad person because of it,and actually overall it was pretty funny.  But, her Black Ajah capture wasn't her best moment.

 

Overall, I liked Perrins storyline with the Shindo, although I think it shouldn't have taken 3 full books to finish up.  Sometimes though it would be nice to move Rands story further, until recently, he's been kinda out of it.  But, I think that was on purpose,to show how the Dragon's Rebirth has affected the world.

 

I admit, the cleansing of the taint didn't have as great of effect as I would have hoped.  I understand that the Aes Sedi wouldn't feel differant, but I would have expected a little more impact.

 

I don't have a problem with the women in Wheel of Time like so many people do.  Nynaeve would be my least favorite, and I don't dislike her, but she's a little overbearing,and has some anger problems that make Faile look calm.  I guess thats personal opinion, but I thought most of the charcters are intersting, and are no more flawed then the male characters.

 

My greatest disapointment with the Wheel of Time so far has been I wanted to see teh Aiel and Seachan fight, and not just the Shindo.  And, I though t the Shindo lost too easily, but I guess they were corrupted Aiel,and without the Wise Women's help.

 

 

[The Watcher and Wanderer]

Overall, I liked Perrins storyline with the Shindo, although I think it shouldn't have taken 3 full books to finish up.

 

RJ once stated that when he first conceived of the WOT that there were certain major events that he knew were going to happen but he was not sure exactly when they were going to happen.  It seems that the first three major accomplishments that he lined out for Perrin where liberating the Two Rivers, helping Rand at Dummi's Well and defeating the Shaido/rescue Faile.   The problem is that the way the story developed the fist two occured way to close together so he had to drag out the third.  I do really like the Perrin/Prophet/Shaido story arc but fact that it was drawn out over 4 books kinda spoiled it, especially with the 1.5 to 2 year waits between each book.  This story arc is much more enjoyable when you can read the books one after another.  

 

And, I though t the Shindo lost too easily, but I guess they were corrupted Aiel,and without the Wise Women's help.

 

I'm not sure that they lost too easily, Perrin did find away to introduce a completely unexpected element to the battle via forkroot tea and completely blindsided the Aiel.   This makes Perrin one of the very, very few generals who have defeated Aiel and I'm surprised that more WoT fans don't see the significance of this.  My biggest disappointment in the series is how readily fans have lost faith in Perrin. Despite the fact that he has faltered some during his latest story line, and the drawn out nature of this story arc has made it seem as though he's been acting like a douche for much longer than he really has, he will be a great character again once he gets a few things sorted out.

 

 

 

[DPT24]

Luckly for me, I've just started reading the series this year, and so have been able to read through the first 12 in order, without major breaks. 

 

  I think the reason most fans don't get the Perrin/Aiel thing is because the Seachan help. But, your right, Perrin is a very underated general.  He defeated the Trollocs, helped save Rand at Dumi Wells, and defeated the Shindo.  I don't get why so many people hated that he went after Faile,since Rand kinda sent him aways anyways.  Besides,without Perrin, Rand would likely have been captured by Elidia. 

[Zidel333]

Most major monarchs (such as Andor) and councils (such as Far Madding) are ruled by women,

 

Actually, it's pretty even. Arad Doman, Tear, Illian, Amadicia, two of the Borderland nations and Cairhien, for example, are all in the hands of male rulers (or mostly male) as of the start of the series.

 

Actually, Arad Domain doesn't count. It's rule by a puppet (male) King who is in fact ruled by the Council of Merchants, most if not all are implied to be women. Amadicia, once again, puppet (male) King who is in fact controlled by (male) White Cloaks -- this just shows the failure of real political control, and the rise of tyranny. Tear and Illian I will concede. But I still hold that most rulers and power wielders are in fact women.

 

 

 

Further, the lack of good or interesting female characters makes you root for Rand!

 

I don't agree that there is such a lack. There is a flawed power dynamic in the series, that does need to be fixed, but it is not "women in charge", it's "women and men not working together".

 

I don't agree either. It's the very power dynamic of women in charge that led to most of this mess. As for, lack of good or interesting female characters is very much a matter of personal opinion. I just find most females in WoT insipid or tiresome. I do like Aviendha, Min, Elayne (some of the time), Birgette, the Aiel Maidens, Siuan, the Wise Ones, and increasingly Nynaeve, but that's because they have some personality to work with. Too often, RJ made the characters 1 dimensions or even degrade them to mere caricatures. It's no wonder the men, who typically have more personality (as one would expect as the author was male), are more interesting on the whole.

 

 

 

This is a very well thought out argument against WoT.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Want to actually write out why instead of just relying on a 3 word sentence? It's almost insulting the way you just completely disregard my own or anyone else's opinions that you disagree with. It's like I said "Yes, WoT is my favorite series, but that doesn't preclude it's many, many flaws. We're better fans for discussing why it doesn't work."

 

[csarmi]

I think he didn't want to include the word "childish" because it is not his style.

 

I think the opening post shows

 

1) a lack of understanding on how things really are in non-fairytales

2) inability to look at the storiy from different angles, perspectives (particularly, only being able to see it from Rand's and from "The Guys" to some extent)

3) inability to think 'inside the book' (and not using meta-data)

 

People don't work the way they do in fantasy novels written for 12-year-old boys. This book is realistic in a lot of ways and that may be hard to swallow.

 

I think Mr. Ares has put it very politely. I'm trying to be polite too, but I feel I haven't succeeded. Well, whatever.

[alligator]

This book is realistic in a lot of ways and that may be hard to swallow.

 

The absence of female characters who are respectful and intelligent isn't realistic. There are some, clearly, but I would like to think that in real life, most women aren't so extremely prejudiced and controlling.

[The Fisher King]

I deeply hated Elayne too - till she started being nice to Mat.

Also, assigning her the talent for ''Figuring Out'' what stuff (likes Mat's Deal) does...made her kinda interesting.

 

And alsos, I didn't like her as much during her fight for the throne, BUT, the best part of those parts, imo, was the exposure we got to Dylin - maybe one of my fave side characters. Shes very very dry, but she rocks.

 

And when Elayne listened to Dylin's advice (which was like NEVER wrong lol) it made Elayne look really swell.

 

 

Fish

[Talmanes]

This book is realistic in a lot of ways and that may be hard to swallow.

 

The absence of female characters who are respectful and intelligent isn't realistic. There are some, clearly, but I would like to think that in real life, most women aren't so extremely prejudiced and controlling.

 

What you have to remember is that the story doesn't really focus on the normal women in the world. There is a quote from RJ about this I'll try to find that explains why most of the main women characters are the way they are.

[csarmi]

The absence of female characters who are respectful and intelligent isn't realistic. There are some, clearly, but I would like to think that in real life, most women aren't so extremely prejudiced and controlling.

 

Would you say that in 17th century Europe most of the people have no prejudice vs jews (or woman, for that matter)? The first party killed Jesus, the second is responsible for leaving paradise. And those things didn't even happen, most likely, while the men did break the world.

[The Fisher King]

The Watcher and The Wanderer Said: ''I'm not sure that they lost too easily, Perrin did find away to introduce a completely unexpected element to the battle via forkroot tea and completely blindsided the Aiel.  This makes Perrin one of the very, very few generals who have defeated Aiel and I'm surprised that more WoT fans don't see the significance of this.  My biggest disappointment in the series is how readily fans have lost faith in Perrin. Despite the fact that he has faltered some during his latest story line, and the drawn out nature of this story arc has made it seem as though he's been acting like a douche for much longer than he really has, he will be a great character again once he gets a few things sorted out.''

 

- Fantastc. Great Analysis.

 

 

Fish

[The Fisher King]

I actually feel that the Original Poster Person here has alot of legit points and concerns...I just feel that he does not (or is not willing to) see that most of his have reasonable answers...Such as:

 

1 I just found the entire battle unimaginative and making little sense to what we already know in how truly superior in weaves and power the Forsaken are supposed to be.

 

- Well, actually you have to remember who was left standing among the Chosen at this point in time...ones that were clearly stronger were gone and buried (like Rhavin and Sammael) ... What was left were the weakest among them. Moggy, who we have been told is the weakest channeler of The Forsaken, hence the nickname ''Spider'' ... also, they didn't even have all of their remaining number THERE. Messana was too frightened to even show up. We later learn it is because she is - except for Moggy - the weakest Forsaken Channeler.

 

Cadsuane holding up a shield over the hilltop...Even with an angreal her strength should have been insignificant in the face of the other Forsaken.

 

- I actually KINDA agree with this one...especially when you go back and read that part extra-carefully as I have done. The Forsaken that showed up were better armed than expected. Unfortuantely, for Team Light, only Alivia realizes this when she notes that Cyndane has an An'greal - which is the only way Cyndane can even compare to Channeling as strongly as She could when she was Lanfear. WH makes this pretty plain.

 

Compare Cadsuane in this situation to Alivia who is stronger than Nynaeve in the power using an angreal plus various other ter'angreal and Lanfear as Cyndane defeated her in raw strength.

 

- This is where close reading pays well. WH makes it clear that Cyndane is far far weaker than The Daughter of The Night was...the only reason Alivia was confused was, like I said above, when I quoted WH, was because Cyndane had an An'greal and it confused Alivia. Thats what that whole scene was about in the first ploace lol!

 

 

Fish

[csarmi]

What was left were the weakest among them.

 

wrong

 

Moggy, who we have been told is the weakest channeler of The Forsaken, hence the nickname ''Spider''

 

Spider is for not playing fair. Striking from the shadow. Nothing to do with the power. We aren't told she is the weakest. She's a coward. She doesn't take risks.

 

also, they didn't even have all of their remaining number THERE. Messana was too frightened to even show up. We later learn it is because she is - except for Moggy - the weakest Forsaken Channeler.

 

Wrong again. First of all, we don't know whethere Mesaana is weak or not. Second, we have no idea why she did not show up. Maybe she simply could not. It's not so easy to leave the tower right when you wish to.

 

Cadsuane holding up a shield over the hilltop...Even with an angreal her strength should have been insignificant in the face of the other Forsaken.

 

The Forsaken have no angreals themselves. Angreals multiply strength greatly. She should be much stronger than them.

 

Cyndane has an An'greal - which is the only way Cyndane can even compare to Channeling as strongly as She could when she was Lanfear. WH makes this pretty plain.

 

Wrong on all accounts.

Cyndane has no angreal.

We actually do know for a fact that Cyndane is only a little weaker than Lanfear was. Cyndane has a chance because she is much better trained for 1v1 combat. Alivia fights blind.

 

[Mr Ares]

Most major monarchs (such as Andor) and councils (such as Far Madding) are ruled by women,

Actually, it's pretty even. Arad Doman, Tear, Illian, Amadicia, two of the Borderland nations and Cairhien, for example, are all in the hands of male rulers (or mostly male) as of the start of the series.

Actually, Arad Domain doesn't count. It's rule by a puppet (male) King who is in fact ruled by the Council of Merchants, most if not all are implied to be women.

Actually, Arad Doman does count. While the bulk of the Council of Merchants is female, the king is not a puppet. He is, in point of fact, a near absolute ruler. The Council elects the king, but I don't know of any other powers they have.

Amadicia, once again, puppet (male) King who is in fact controlled by (male) White Cloaks -- this just shows the failure of real political control, and the rise of tyranny.

It's still run by a man, though. Which was what I said.

Tear and Illian I will concede. But I still hold that most rulers and power wielders are in fact women.

And would you care to back it up with some facts? I think that taking the continent as a whole, women might have the edge, but not by as much as many seem to think.

 

Further, the lack of good or interesting female characters makes you root for Rand!

I don't agree that there is such a lack. There is a flawed power dynamic in the series, that does need to be fixed, but it is not "women in charge", it's "women and men not working together".

I don't agree either. It's the very power dynamic of women in charge that led to most of this mess.

But it is not women in charge, as I said previously. Men are in power in many places across the continent. The big problem is the AS, and their problem is one that arises from a lack of competition. They have stagnated. A purely male organistation would do the same thing, or a mixed one.

 

This is a very well thought out argument against WoT.

No, it isn't.

Want to actually write out why instead of just relying on a 3 word sentence?

That was what the bulk of my post was about, you know. His opinion of Caduane's character, his belief that everyone should get together overnight because the Source was Cleansed, AS continuing to manipulate, his opinion of the women characters, just a few of the points I addressed. I didn't do it after that three word sentence because I had already done it. One might feel almost insulted at the way you had just disregarded my own opinion that you disagreed with. WoT does have flaws, but the Op didn't do a good job of addressing them. "I didn't like it" is hardly great criticism.

 

I think Mr Ares has put it very politely. I'm trying to be polite too, but I feel I haven't succeeded. Well, whatever.

I find that even when I try to be polite, people still think I'm being rude, so just say what you want, how you want, and let others take it as they will.

 

The absence of female characters who are respectful and intelligent isn't realistic. There are some, clearly, but I would like to think that in real life, most women aren't so extremely prejudiced and controlling.

The primary female protagonists, those who get the most screen time, are somewhat limited in their walks of life - AS taking most of those spots, for example. And while the organistation as a whole receives much deserving criticism, there are many individuals who show themselves to be worthy of respect. Among them, Verin, Cadsuane, Moiraine, Siuan, Leane, Pevara. Do none of them fit your description? Then maybe some of the others do. Or non-AS, such as the Wise Ones, or Min, Setalle Anan. People frequently are disrespectful and prejudiced, and people in positions of power are often controlling and manipulative, because they want to maintain their power.

 

Moggy, who we have been told is the weakest channeler of The Forsaken, hence the nickname ''Spider''

Again, we have never been told that. Her nickname of Spider comes from her habit of hiding, and striking from the shadows at unsuspecting prey. She takes easy targets. She is a coward, but that's nothing to do with her strength in the Power.

We later learn it is because she is - except for Moggy - the weakest Forsaken Channeler.

We never earn any such thing. You've got to stop saying this if you can't back it up.

 

Unfortuantely, for Team Light, only Alivia realizes this when she notes that Cyndane has an An'greal

Other way round. Cyndane notes Alivia has an angreal. Alivia has never had a POV.

which is the only way Cyndane can even compare to Channeling as strongly as She could when she was Lanfear.

WH and PoD both make clear that although Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, she is still a very strong and very capable channeler in her own right. Her being stronger than Graendal, and Graendal's own strength being greater than most men, is explicitly stated.

 

WH makes it clear that Cyndane is far far weaker than The Daughter of The Night was...

No it doesn't.

the only reason Alivia was confused was, like I said above, when I quoted WH, was because Cyndane had an An'greal and it confused Alivia.

No, Alivia had the angreal, not Cyndane. It's like our last conversation bout this never happened. I try to help people on here with my enormous knowledge, but to have it ignored so does not a happy Mr Ares make.