One thing overlooked about LTT's voice

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

There's something I noticed when Rand was thinking about LTT's voice in his head in the earlier books. He mentioned him being "as mad the day he died in the AOL." But there's one problem, Ishamael healed him of his madness before he died so he would know what he had done when he did go insane. LTT then killed himself when he realized he killed Ilyena driven by GRIEF.

 

Which means that LTT's voice isn't mad, but rather someone who realized he killed his own wife and family (although he doesn't seem to care about them as much as Ilyena). I can imagine Rand doing something similar if he realized he had killed someone close to him, but could it be possible for LTT to get over it and start aiding Rand actively instead of when his memories seep into Rand?

[Luckers]

Actually i thought it was implied that what Ishamael did was only temporary. It gave him brief lucididty to face what he had done, and that was all.

[Angel of Death]

Could jsut be a saying, or maybe Rand doesn't know of this 'de-insaning'. Or yeah maybe it was just temporary (if the voice really is LTT concosness)

[Mat Comes With The Dawn]

I don't know if Healing can be even made to be temporary. It's either incomplete (like Rand's scar, Mat's dagger), doesn't work, or it works.

 

But there is inverse healing as we know, so it's possible he left some timer to make LTT mad later. But he killed himself before that, so how could that matter when LTT was dead and sane?

[chuckievi]

Even people with Alzheimers or other mental disease can have brief moments of lucidness. I'm not entirely sure, but it is possible that Ishy merely provided one of those moments to Lews. While the madness associated with the taint bears little resemblance to the afore mentioned illnesses, it could be a similar type of situation.

[Kaffa]

Ahhh you've hit the nail squarely on this one.... Countless times through out the series LTT has been described as being as mad as he's always been.

 

Which would be impossible if he really killed himself! If he was dead, then what ever part of him locked in Rand's head would be free from the effects of tainted Sadin.

 

So I still propose that what he did to make Dragon MT was something other than suicide. It was an act of desperation. Since when has he felt like he deserved to die!?

 

In his mind death is a sweet release from a life he no longer wants..... But he doesn't feel he deserves to rest.

[Child Olaf]

If I found out that I had just killed the entirety of my family and loved ones I would lose my mind.

 

But I believe that his moment of clarity to realize what he did was just that, a moment. A brief stop on the train to Crazytown.

[aronsamma]

“A pity for you,†he mused, “that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes.â€

[Roxinos]

Hey, that says that the Aes Sedai in the AoL had the ability to Heal some of the taints effects.

 

Anyway.

 

Kaffa:

 

LTT says many many many many many many many many many many many many times in Rand's head that he deserves to die and that he just wants to rest. He just wants forgiveness from Ilyena and he wants to die finally so that he can join Ilyena.

[merlinspetrock]

Ishy was the DO's most valued hench man. The DO most likely allowed the taint to be lifted from LTT as a way to punish him. If the DO can shield his peeps from the taint, why couldnt he lift it momentarily for some revenge? Least thats how I have viewed it so far. As I started reading the series before this was added in, Im not really positive though.

[SinisterDeath]

For arguements sake. Lets say when Ishamle healed LTT it fully cleared his insaneness..

Once seeing what he did to his loved ones, isn't it plasuable that he drove him self insane from his anguish? Its entirely plausable.

[merlinspetrock]

For arguements sake. Lets say when Ishamle healed LTT it fully cleared his insaneness..

Once seeing what he did to his loved ones' date=' isn't it plasuable that he drove him self insane from his anguish? Its entirely plausable.[/quote']

 

Agreed.

[Mangin]

Tangent alert.....

 

I am sure this has been discussed before, but I haven't found the thread....

 

I have read most feel the taint was directly the cause of Rand's madness (i.e. Lews Therin's voice in his head) and this is the most obvious explaination for the madness. How do we explain Lews being more and more prominent and even taking control of Saidin?

 

I was wondering if the taint is a convenient excuse for Lews being in Rand's head? Or, the taint definately caused a madness, but Lews is the form of the madness chosen for Rand. Is it possible Lews was put there by the DO? This would explain the increasing power/prominence of Lews in Rand while the DO is slowly breaking the seals/breaking free. Now that Lews' voice in Rand's head has become more common knowledge, the DO's plans are easier to come to fruition. People will really be doubting Rand's sanity now. This would also explain the Forsaken's "knowledge" of Rand hearing Lews in his mind. I know, they could easily have deduced this based upon conversations with Rand (Lanfear bringing out quotes by Lews, etc), but it seems to tie this together in my mind.

 

If Rand's increasing 'madness' is more easily explained, please let me know as, like I said prior, I couldn't find the prior threads. Thanks.

[Kaffa]

Well that is the big question here isn't it? Is Rand mad? Or just suffering from cramped living quarters in his skull? Personally I think he's as sane as the next guy.... He's just exhausted and under extreme pressure. I feel LTT is speaking to him because in a moment of clarity provided by Ishy three thousand years earlier he re-wrote the rules. In my humble opinion the taint isn't responsible for any part of Rands current state.

[Kaznen]

And most of Rand's "everyone is out to get me" attitude is because, for a while, almost everyone was. That or they wanted something from him. Even now, few people give him any peace.

[rd2000]

I can't seem to recall anywhere in any of the books where it indicates that Rand is going mad. Only the increasing fear in him that he is going mad or that other's will percieve him as mad. The POV we always see explains his thoughts/actions as sane.

[Luckers]

Ummm... have you read the books? In the third book he gets as mad as i think he's gonna, then he reverts. Now though he's hearing another voice in his head, and real or not its having an effect on his psychological state.

 

I imagine most insane people percieve their state as being sane and normal.

[rd2000]

Have YOU read the books? Rand's POV (the one mostly used when any behaviour or thoughts of Rand could be miscontrued as being insane) shows us that he is unsure of his sanity at times, but, his actions later usually prove to be the appropriate ones.

It seems to me that everyone (including Rand) BELIEVES he should go insane, so that knowledge in itself changes everyone's perception of his actions.

 

Luckers, we've gone head to head several times already. I appreciate your knowledge of the series, but don't think your the only WOT fan here. Sorry but it's late, and I am so tired of seeing people use the same stupid tactic (discredit a post by discrediting the poster)

[erinol0]

-SLIGHT SPOILER ALERT-

 

This may be way out there, but lately I've been wondering: is it possible that Semirhage could be responsible for Rand's madness? It would certainly explain how she knew about the whole Rand/LTT thing and why she was absent early in the series when the "LTT in Rand's head" thing started.

 

erinol

[Minnea]

In the third book he gets as mad as i think he's gonna, then he reverts. Now though he's hearing another voice in his head, and real or not its having an effect on his psychological state.

 

It just hit me... or, rahter I've thought about it before but never got it out...

 

Luckers describes it as if Rand reverts from the brink of madness. What if he didn't? Right now I don't remember exactly when LTT starts talking in his head, but it is after this, right? Then, maybe Rand didn't "revert" from madness - he just divided his mind against it, a kind of schizofrenia where the mad part of his mind "became" LTT, while the sane part still is the Rand he has always been.

 

Did anyone understand what I'm trying to say?

[Guest Harso]

yes I understand, but i don't think I count. sounds plausible, i guess

[chuckievi]

Thats a fun theory indeed! Only question that comes to mind is how does that "insane" section of his mind know so much about using the power?

[Minnea]

I agree that LTTs knowledge of the Power does not pair upt my theory about schizofrenia. Unless there are some combination of the two, something in Rand's unconcious mind makes him "remember" things (like Mat sprouting Old Tounge before Rhuidean) and then the "LTT-part" is the place to store that memory - beacause Rand knows he could not know these things by himself.

 

Or maybe I'm just floundering here... It's not a well-thought-out theroy, just speculation ... and I'm not sure I bevlive it myselt. Just threw it in to see if anyone caught on :lol:

[Lews Therin Telamon]

Quote "Could jsut be a saying, or maybe Rand doesn't know of this 'de-insaning'. Or yeah maybe it was just temporary (if the voice really is LTT concosness)"

 

IF the voice is really conscious? How can there be any doubt as to wether or not he is conscious? Of course he is! How could he have taught Rand how to untie the knots in his shield at Dumais Wells? How could he kill all the Trollocs in KoD?

[signdragon]

One small point i have never seen. By ltt rantings, it seems clear that he is not dead in the sense his illenya is because he wants to join her. I think he is trapped in something akin to the forsaken being sealed, my guess is dragonmount. Which is becoming more active as tarmon gaiden approaches.