There Are 3 Possible Answers: ''Is Mat's Ashanderi a Ter'angreal??''

[The Fisher King]

1 Yes.

 

2 No.

 

3 It has not been revealed one way or another yet.

 

 

My shrewdity leasds me to lean pretty heavily to ''Yes'' ...it seems fairly obvious.

 

 

 

Fish

[HighLordXanthus]

Well, it could be argued that all power-wrought blades are ter'angreal, but no I dont think so.  Unless keeping its edge and never rusting involves continued use of the power.  Ter'angreal all perform an active use of the power.  Like the t'a'r stone ring causes those who sleep with it touching the skin to to enter the world of dreams or the oath rod binds oaths into the flesh when spirit is channeled into it.  But power wrought items dont seem to show continued power becides its original intent.  Like said weapons always staying sharp and not rusting, or whitebridge never breaking or becoming slippery.

 

Now, does anyone know of any instances where mat's ashanderi showed anything extra beyond a normal power-wrought blade?  I cant remember any, and it has been 9 books since mat got it.  You would think something would have come up if it did have any hidden powers

[The Fisher King]

HighLordXanthas:

 

''''Well, it could be argued that all power-wrought blades are ter'angreal, but no I dont think so.''''

 

 

Nice point...However...I have always viewed a Power-Wrought Object to have to make an inherent difference WITHIN an actual person to be classiifed as Ter'angreal...allow me to expound a bit... Take Lan's Power-Wrought Sword...it has special advantages that make the Blade itself special, such as it bever needing to be sharpened, but, it does nothing advantageous to the actual PERSON (Lan, in this case)...so, his blade is very obviously a Power-Wrought object, but NOT a Ter'angreal.

 

Cadsuane Melidhrin's Hair-Piece is another example of one that IS Ter'angreal as it something that makes her inherently a stronger channeler...

 

So. I would say that Mat's Ashanderi is indeed a Ter'angreal because it seems to make him an inherently devestating fighter...Now, Mat on his own is pretty Bad-A$$...His reflexes are legendary all on their own...and he is deadly in a Knife-Fight...BUT...When he is weilding the Ashanderi, he seems almost immortal...it has to be the effects of this mystical weapon given by the Finns...and therefore, it must be Ter'angreal. 

 

 

 

''''Now, does anyone know of any instances where mat's ashanderi showed anything extra beyond a normal power-wrought blade?  I cant remember any, and it has been 9 books since mat got it.  You would think something would have come up if it did have any hidden powers''''

 

 

Like I say above...while Mat just on his own is an amazing fighter, especially with a good quarterstaff or his knives, he becomes somehthing else entirely when weilding the Ashanderi...a weapon he had never had any practice before in his life before The Finns gave it to him......Mat's statement that it was very similar to a Quarterstaff mus be discounted.......Lastly, its not necessarily true that it would have been ''Found Out'' before now. Things have been happening pretty fast - the fastest-moving storyline in the series - and most Aes Sedai who itch to study Ter'angreal have been more obsessed with Cauthon's Fox-Headed Medallion....it doesn't shock me that its existence as a Ter'angreal may have escaped attention this long.

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

[Muad Cheade]

It is not a ter'angreal very simply. Mat is right. It is just like a quarterstaff with a blade at the end of it and he uses it in the same manner. He is already skilled with a quarterstaff (he defeats both Galad and Gawyn at the same time and later on does the same to High Lord Darlin, a man who is said to be skilled with a sword).

 

Also, if you read the chapter where he first fights with it (TSR Ch. 37), he notes that he was familiar with that type of weapon due to his new memories.

 

Also, the fact that Birgitte knows what it is and its name, indicates that it was a common weapon in years past.

 

Perrin is nigh-immortal with his hammer. He defeats many of the most dangerous human beings alive (Shaido) with it and has used it in the same time period as Mat and his ashandarei. That does not mean it is a ter'angreal...A person's skill with a weapon is not indicative of that weapon's mystical abilities, only of that person's martial prowess.

[ed2funy]

It is not a ter'angreal very simply. Mat is right. It is just like a quarterstaff with a blade at the end of it and he uses it in the same manner. He is already skilled with a quarterstaff (he defeats both Galad and Gawyn at the same time and later on does the same to High Lord Darlin, a man who is said to be skilled with a sword).

 

Also, if you read the chapter where he first fights with it (TSR Ch. 37), he notes that he was familiar with that type of weapon due to his new memories.

 

Also, the fact that Birgitte knows what it is and its name, indicates that it was a common weapon in years past.

 

Perrin is nigh-immortal with his hammer. He defeats many of the most dangerous human beings alive (Shaido) with it and has used it in the same time period as Mat and his ashandarei. That does not mean it is a ter'angreal...A person's skill with a weapon is not indicative of that weapon's mystical abilities, only of that person's martial prowess.

 

 

nuff said!

 

 

lol...took the words out of my mouth...

[Mr Ares]

Is the ashandarei a ter'angreal? No.

Does a ter'angreal have to affect a person within himself? No.

Do Cadsuane's hair ornaments make her inherently a stronger channeler? No.

Does Mat's ashandarei make him a better fighter than he would be without it in a way different to Lan being good with a sword and using a Power-wrought blade? No.

Does anything The Fisher King said make sense? Take a guess.

[The Fisher King]

Mr Ares...Sir...Uhhh...Cadsuane Sedai's Hair Ter'angreal SIGNIFICANTLY makes her an inherently stronger Channeler. Are you familiar with Far Madding? (as just one of many examples).

 

 

Basically, Cadsuane's Ter'angreal functions in the exact same manner as ''The Fat Bearded Little Man'' Ter'angreal that Rand lost or The ''Acrobat'' Ter'angreal that Lanfear once posessed - and Moirane once disliked.

 

 

Same principles apply...Thats pretty much canon.

 

 

I really enjoy your posts, Mr Ares (I can like people who never agree with me lol) BUT, i WOULD ask you to do me ONE favor: Before responding again about Cadusane's Hair Ter'angreal, PLEASE pick up your copy of WH and reread the sections concerning Far Madding and Aleis...Can you maybe guess what might happen if you were to do that?

 

 

 

Fish

 

[SheaththeSword]

She has more than one hair ornament. Ye may be thinking of different ones.

 

Also, i believe no ter'/sa'/angreal can make a person inherently stronger, as their natural ability is not altered even when using something like the Cheoden Kal (sp). I think that's what Mr Ares meant.

Or possibly that since the ornaments are all apparently ter'angreal and not angreal/sa'angreal, they do not increase strength

[Cillian]

Mr Ares...Sir...Uhhh...Cadsuane Sedai's Hair Ter'angreal SIGNIFICANTLY makes her an inherently stronger Channeler. Are you familiar with Far Madding? (as just one of many examples).

 

Basically, Cadsuane's Ter'angreal functions in the exact same manner as ''The Fat Bearded Little Man'' Ter'angreal that Rand lost or The ''Acrobat'' Ter'angreal that Lanfear once posessed - and Moirane once disliked.

 

Those are Angreal not Ter'angreal.

 

As for Cadsuanes hair pieces:

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/'>http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/'>http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

None make her an "inherently stronger channeler".

 

 

[The Fisher King]

You know what guys, we may just be talking seramics here, but, the way I look at it is:

 

If something I use helps me do a better job at a task than I could do without using it...then I am inherently stronger performing that task because of it.

 

It said object allows me to do something that I would not be able to do without it, then obviously I am stronger.

 

 

Just how I look at it...I don't mean that my perception is the right one...just that that is how I see it.

 

 

 

Fish

[ed2funy]

angreeal and sa'angreal make a channeler stronger...

 

i don't think ter'angreal do....

 

if a person who does not have enough strength to weave a gateway has a ter'angreal that make it by simply putting the smallest flow of spirit into it...is she/he stronger?

no...he/she just has an object that allows them to do one specific thing that they normally couldn't.....

they are still as limited in everything else they do....

 

a power-wrought blade will not make you stronger...it might save your butt a few times because it didn't break when it should have....but your skill is your skill with or without that blade....

[HighLordXanthus]

Mat's bad-assery comes from many sources.  His dads training with the quarter staff.  His own natural balance.  Thoms training on juggling and tumbling which further honed his balance and agility.  The memories recieved from the twisted stone door.  Short of some quote that talks about any direct effect of the ashanderi, I say no it is not a ter'angreal.

 

I would also venture to say that all angreal and sa'angeal are simply a "form" of ter'angreal.  They are objects made with the power to bring about a certain effect.  I would also say the cuendellar (sp?) is also a ter'angreal, the whole "any force used against it only making it stronger" bit would support this.

[Muad Cheade]

Read my first post about Mat.

 

You know what guys, we may just be talking seramics here, but, the way I look at it is:

 

Do you mean semantics?

 

If something I use helps me do a better job at a task than I could do without using it...then I am inherently stronger performing that task because of it.

 

If there is a ter'angreal that makes music when channeled into, does that make the user a better musician? Absolutely not. Inherently stronger means you already had that ability within you prior to using the ter'ngreal.

 

It said object allows me to do something that I would not be able to do without it, then obviously I am stronger.

 

Obviously, but you are saying that you already had that strength.

 

 

Just how I look at it...I don't mean that my perception is the right one...just that that is how I see it.

 

There's nothing wrong with that.

 

Mr Ares...Sir...Uhhh...Cadsuane Sedai's Hair Ter'angreal SIGNIFICANTLY makes her an inherently stronger Channeler. Are you familiar with Far Madding? (as just one of many examples).

 

Cadsuane has more than one hair ornament.

 

The one that looks "a little like a shrike (a fish)" is an angreal [WH: 35, With The Choedan Kal].

 

The hummingbird is a Well, which can hold a reservoir of the OP to allow channeling in a stedding [WH: 34, The Hummingbird's Secret].

 

The intertwined golden crescents is basically the same as Mat's medallion. A ter'angreal. [TPOD: 12, New Alliances]

 

The eight-pointed star vibrates in the presence of men who can channel - the more men, the harder it vibrates [COT: 23, Ornaments]

 

The swallow can detect the OP being channeled and the direction it is coming from, though not how far away or whether saidin or saidar. [WH: 35, With The Choedan Kal]

 

There are three ornaments - two fish and a moon - which Cadsuane does not know the function of [COT: 23, Ornaments]

 

They all do not make her a better or inherently stronger channeler; they simply just either add to her above-average channeling ability or assist it.

 

Basically, Cadsuane's Ter'angreal functions in the exact same manner as ''The Fat Bearded Little Man'' Ter'angreal that Rand lost or The ''Acrobat'' Ter'angreal that Lanfear once posessed - and Moirane once disliked.

The fat bearded man is a angreal. You are confusing them.

 

Angreal provide the channeler with more power than they can wield by themselves (Rand's angreal). Sa'angreal are simply more powerful angreals (Callandor). Ter'angreal are objects made with the power that do specific things (Mat's medallion).

 

I really enjoy your posts, Mr Ares (I can like people who never agree with me lol) BUT, i WOULD ask you to do me ONE favor: Before responding again about Cadusane's Hair Ter'angreal, PLEASE pick up your copy of WH and reread the sections concerning Far Madding and Aleis...Can you maybe guess what might happen if you were to do that?

 

As much as it pains me to say this, Mr. Ares was right. That was a Well. It is one of her many hair ornaments as I previously mentioned.

[The Fisher King]

Muade Cheade...

 

 

Do you mean semantics?... Yeah, I did.  :-[

 

 

If there is a ter'angreal that makes music when channeled into, does that make the user a better musician? Absolutely not. Inherently stronger means you already had that ability within you prior to using the ter'ngreal....See, this is where I actually still disagree..I think the *er* makes all the difference in the world here...strongER means already Strong. Just amplified. Yes, you may already be say a Level 3 at something inherently, but if The Ter'angreal makes you a Level 5, then it is still obvious it is making you stronER even though you already had the ability within you to start with. In other words, Im not saying that a Ter'angreal makes you STRONG in some ability...but I DO think it is accurate to say that a Ter'angreal makes you strongER.

 

 

Quote from: The Fisher King on Today at 03:27:59 PM

Just how I look at it...I don't mean that my perception is the right one...just that that is how I see it.

 

There's nothing wrong with that. Thats fair enough, lol.

 

 

I do need to say here, and apologize, that I do seem to be, to some extent, confusing Ter'angreal, Ang'real, Sang'real and Wells. I am sorry.

 

I disagree that the Crescent of Cadusane Sedai is similalr to Mat's Foxhead Medallion...But, as Ive just readily admitted...I can confuse them.

 

 

Also, as for Mat's Medallion...I never saw it as it DOING anything. Rather, it allows weaves and flows of the power to unravel before reaching him. Its not proactive, but it does have a nullifying effect.

 

 

As for Cadsuane...My understanding of The WH Sections that covered Far Madding was that it was a bit more than just Wells allowing Cadsuane to tap into stored-up saidar. She was enhanced by San'greal in her hair at the same time. Thats how I understood it.

 

Alot was happening in Far Madding.

 

 

As much as it pains me to say this, Mr. Ares was right.

 

My Goodness...that makes me sad too :(

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

[ed2funy]

If there is a ter'angreal that makes music when channeled into, does that make the user a better musician? Absolutely not. Inherently stronger means you already had that ability within you prior to using the ter'ngreal....See, this is where I actually still disagree..I think the *er* makes all the difference in the world here...strongER means already Strong. Just amplified. Yes, you may already be say a Level 3 at something inherently, but if The Ter'angreal makes you a Level 5, then it is still obvious it is making you stronER even though you already had the ability within you to start with. In other words, Im not saying that a Ter'angreal makes you STRONG in some ability...but I DO think it is accurate to say that a Ter'angreal makes you strongER.

 

but are YOU playing the music? or is the ter'angreal???

if that "music" ter'angreal, as with most, simply required a flow of one of the five powers or a touch here and there on it, then the user is not himself playing or being enhanced in anyway....

 

most ter'angreal do something themselves...they do not let the user perform it....

i can't think of examples to disprove myself...so ima stick to my theory....

if anyone can provide an example from the book (not a hypothetical one like our "music" ter'angreal, that would be great!

http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

i didn't really see any that make someone inherently stronger on this list.....tho i just skimmed..... ;D

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares...Sir...Uhhh...Cadsuane Sedai's Hair Ter'angreal SIGNIFICANTLY makes her an inherently stronger Channeler. Are you familiar with Far Madding? (as just one of many examples).

 

Basically, Cadsuane's Ter'angreal functions in the exact same manner as ''The Fat Bearded Little Man'' Ter'angreal that Rand lost or The ''Acrobat'' Ter'angreal that Lanfear once posessed - and Moirane once disliked.

 

Same principles apply...Thats pretty much canon.

 

I really enjoy your posts, Mr Ares (I can like people who never agree with me lol) BUT, i WOULD ask you to do me ONE favor: Before responding again about Cadusane's Hair Ter'angreal, PLEASE pick up your copy of WH and reread the sections concerning Far Madding and Aleis...Can you maybe guess what might happen if you were to do that?

 

Fish

What you are thinking of are angreal, not ter'angreal (and a well, in Far Madding - Cadsuane has several hair ornament tar'angreal as well as an angreal). Angreal do not make one an inherently stronger channeler. Women can sense the strength of one another, and if another woman has an angreal (has, but is not currently using), only their base strength will be sensed, not their strength with an angreal. The extra strength the angreal provides will only be detected in one is currently drawing through it. In much the same way as glasses do not make someone's eyes inherently better, but do improve vision. The change is not internal, not a part of the person. With a well, the channeler is no stronger, but they can use their strength in a place they would otherwise be unable to.

 

Also, i believe no ter'/sa'/angreal can make a person inherently stronger, as their natural ability is not altered even when using something like the Cheoden Kal (sp). I think that's what Mr Ares meant.

That's it precisely.

 

If something I use helps me do a better job at a task than I could do without using it...then I am inherently stronger performing that task because of it.

 

It said object allows me to do something that I would not be able to do without it, then obviously I am stronger.

As an analogy, imagine I was very good at a certain compter game, because I practiced an awful lot at it. You, however, make use of cheat codes and so have more success. You are not a better player, though. In a fair contest, I will win because I am better. But if you use cheats, I cannot beat you. In a foot race, you would probably be faster than be. If I was using rocket powered roller skates though... (that gives me an idea...)

 

The thing is, these things are not inherent. I am not inherently faster than you. You are not an inherently better game player than me, Cadsuane is not inherently capable of channeling saidar in FM. Anyone could wear those rocket powered skates, anyone could use the cheat codes, any saidar channeler (perhaps any channeler, we don't know if it works with saidin) could use Cadsuane's well. It is not inherent ability, but the right equipment that permits these successes.

[Impressive Bosom]

You know what guys, we may just be talking seramics here, but, the way I look at it is:

 

If something I use helps me do a better job at a task than I could do without using it...then I am inherently stronger performing that task because of it.

 

It said object allows me to do something that I would not be able to do without it, then obviously I am stronger.

 

 

Just how I look at it...I don't mean that my perception is the right one...just that that is how I see it.

 

 

 

Fish

 

Think about it this way: if you're holding a garden hose and I'm holding a firehose, it doesn't mean that I suddenly have more water in my body than you do.

[The Fisher King]

Impressive Bosom (is it really, lol?) - Thanks for that analogy.

 

Mr Ares...I figured you'd come in and rip my skin off after I admitted that I was confusing Ter'angreal. An'greal, San'greal and Wells...in stead you really broke it down for me in an awesome way...thanks alot...i really apreciate it...

 

I was propbably (and may still be) misusuing the word 'inherent' as well.

 

 

Man, Cadsuande is like a walking weapons shop in her heair lol!!!

 

 

 

 

Fish

 

 

 

 

[Impressive Bosom]

Impressive Bosom (is it really, lol?) - Thanks for that analogy.

 

*downward glance, then a grin*

 

I certainly like to think so. And thank YOU for not getting all 'male ego-ish' when I said you only had a garden hose  :-*  It was purely for the sake of illustrating a point, I promise!

[The Fisher King]

Impressive Bosom said: I certainly like to think so. And thank YOU for not getting all 'male ego-ish' when I said you only had a garden hose    It was purely for the sake of illustrating a point, I promise!

 

 

HuH??? ...OH!!!! ...HA HA HA HA!!! ... I read through that twice before I...I am admittedly not the most lightening quick chap here...The first time my mind didn't even....Thats FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

Fish

[SheaththeSword]

I was propbably (and may still be) misusuing the word 'inherent' as well.

 

Fish

That's actually what i thought from the second. So here's the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary (New Edition) defination of inherent: adj ~ (in sb/sth)

existing as a natural or permanent feature or quality of somebody/something: an inherent weakness [or strength] in a design.

 

Inhernetly is the adverb form.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares...I figured you'd come in and rip my skin off after I admitted that I was confusing Ter'angreal. An'greal, San'greal and Wells...in stead you really broke it down for me in an awesome way...thanks alot...i really apreciate it...

Don't worry. The skin ripping comes later. *Sharpens instruments*

[The Fisher King]

:o Skin-Ripping!!!???  :'(

 

I don't want to be a Belt!!!

 

Skin-Ripping...Belt-Making...Hmmm...Would that makes you a Mr Snakey Folk or a Mr Foxy Folk lol? ;)

 

 

 

Fish

[SheaththeSword]

Considering sea snakes eat fish..... amd i'm sure a fox wouldn't pass one up if hungry ;)