Elaida (Full Spoilers)

[Kalyahna]

I don't have the text, but I seem to remember that Beonin did not know all the new weaves. In particular, she did not know how to make cuendillar, but knew all the new Healing weaves and both forms of Traveling.

 

Since the whole plot point of Beonin's betrayal appears to be as the means to pass knowledge of Traveling to the Seanchan, I wonder why RJ specifically excluded the making of Cuendillar - perhaps to prevent them from making more make a'dam? (those are made of cuendillar).

On that note, if the Seanchan don't know how to make cuendillar, how *did* they make copies of the Domination Band?

 

Wasn't it said that only a very few of the channelers in the camp had strong enough ability with Earth to make cuendillar? Even some of those had to take turns changing the same object because their ability was limited. My guess would be that Beonin has no skill with Earth and thus couldn't do it. Or she thought it pointless to share.

[ed2funy]

The DB's were made of metal or stone.

I believe the a'dam are too.

 

I do not recall them saying it was made of cuendillar.

[randfandom]

The DB's were made of metal or stone.

I believe the a'dam are too.

 

I do not recall them saying it was made of cuendillar.

 

The DB was made of cuendillar - see the detailed description in book 4. Elayne tries to destroy it and fails because cuendillar can't be destroyed by the OP. This was why Nynaeve and Elayne asked Eaganin and Domon to dump it in the ocean. Unfortunately they were captured by the Seanchan.

 

The a'dam is made of "silvery metal", clearly not cuendillar.

 

BS said the DB used on Rand was a copy, not the original, but he said he believes the copies are also cuendillar.

 

On that note, did anyone notice that when Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza, both of them evaporated completely, including any garments or jewlery, but the a'dam bracelets were intact? On the other hand, the collar was destroyed by an air/fire weave that was not balefire. Both weaves were caused by the TP.

 

How is it that the TP balefire did not affect the bracelets, but the other TP weave did destroy the collar?

[ed2funy]

Yes, the original DB is made of Cuendillar. I knew that.

I thought the copies weren't either though...Meh, guess I was wrong.

 

[Kalyahna]

On that note, did anyone notice that when Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza, both of them evaporated completely, including any garments or jewlery, but the a'dam bracelets were intact? On the other hand, the collar was destroyed by an air/fire weave that was not balefire. Both weaves were caused by the TP.

 

How is it that the TP balefire did not affect the bracelets, but the other TP weave did destroy the collar?

 

I don't recall if the passage in the book mentioned specifically how much balefire he threw at them. My guess would be that the bracelets weren't destroyed because he was probably aiming at center mass on Semi and Elza. He didn't make it wide enough to also hit the bracelets.

[Cut Strand]

I'm expecting so.

 

I'm not. Suffa's last scene had an air of finality to it to me. I doubt we'll see her again.

(Correction above)

 

"You must learn.  Your name is Suffa.  And Suffa will be a good damanep.  Yes she will.  A very, very good damane."

[Sharaman]

On that note, did anyone notice that when Rand balefired Semirhage and Elza, both of them evaporated completely, including any garments or jewlery, but the a'dam bracelets were intact? On the other hand, the collar was destroyed by an air/fire weave that was not balefire. Both weaves were caused by the TP.

 

How is it that the TP balefire did not affect the bracelets, but the other TP weave did destroy the collar?

 

I don't recall if the passage in the book mentioned specifically how much balefire he threw at them. My guess would be that the bracelets weren't destroyed because he was probably aiming at center mass on Semi and Elza. He didn't make it wide enough to also hit the bracelets.

 

Mildly off-topic but Doesn't it say somewhere that TP can wipe cuendillar? (Sorry couldn't resist the pun) Damane are tasked with making a'dam of some silvery metal - Egwene's scenes in TGH and the Seanchan apparently don't make other ter'agreal (even the stones used by Bloodknives are relics in short supply). Am assuming since Egwene wasn't taught how to make c'lar as a damane and had to work it out for herself, the Seanchan can't make c'lar. The copied DBs could be of c'lar since the sad bracelets were organised by Semi, who should know the c'lar weaves.

 

Back to our favourite damane. Elaida is semi-nuts but still follows the Three Oaths in her own fashion. The other captured AS were not nuts, as far as we know. So her training could go in several different directions and she may just lose her mind.

She might break, or go batshit, or she may go catatonic, which apparently happens sometimes. Tuon is an expert at coaxing damane who are depressed. I love the thought of Fortuona feeding candy to Suffa.

Also is it considered "perverted" for damane to be pillow friends with other damane as Tuon tells Mat in WH about men being pillow friends with damane?   

[Dakota]

Back to our favourite damane. Elaida is semi-nuts but still follows the Three Oaths in her own fashion. The other captured AS were not nuts, as far as we know. So her training could go in several different directions and she may just lose her mind.

She might break, or go batshit, or she may go catatonic, which apparently happens sometimes. Tuon is an expert at coaxing damane who are depressed. I love the thought of Fortuona feeding candy to Suffa.

Also is it considered "perverted" for damane to be pillow friends with other damane as Tuon tells Mat in WH about men being pillow friends with damane?   

 

Well, Alviarin was able to control her for a while, without the use of any a'dams or anything like that.  Eladia's whole "I will do as I am told" bit.  So I think that Eladia will probably break, and rather quickly at that.

 

As for the bit about the pillowfriends, I would think their attitude would be something like "Let the dogs do whatever they want amongst themselves".  Tuon acts as if a man sleeping with a damane would be like a man screwing an animal, and most people wouldn't consider it perverted when two dogs are doing their thing.

[Mr Ares]

Also is it considered "perverted" for damane to be pillow friends with other damane as Tuon tells Mat in WH about men being pillow friends with damane?

Further to Dakota's answer, we know that the Seanchan are OK with this - they call them "heart friends". It's in WH, I believe, chapter 20.

[Sharaman]

Ah - in fact, it's an approved way of getting a damane out of the dumps. How interesting!

[Kalyahna]

Mildly off-topic but Doesn't it say somewhere that TP can wipe cuendillar?

 

Yeah, actually. One of Sanderson's Q&As mentions that. Of course I didn't read that Q&A until after I'd posted.

 

Also, horrible, horrible pun.

[Sharaman]

Mildly off-topic but Doesn't it say somewhere that TP can wipe cuendillar?

 

Yeah, actually. One of Sanderson's Q&As mentions that. Of course I didn't read that Q&A until after I'd posted.

 

Also, horrible, horrible pun.

Thank you! It's taken years of practice and self-denial.

I like the thought of Suffa being alternately heart-friended and fed candy until she becomes a very good damane.

Apparently there is also another (unstated) way to damage c'llar.

 

[aunt_pol]

 

My apologies if someone's already raised this, but about Elaida's infamous long long ago Foretelling.

As I recall, she interpreted that to mean that House Trakand was the key to the Last Battle, or crucial in some fashion, anyhoo. In the light of that, she had everything short of search parties out for Elayne.

 

Why, then, expend so much effort on getting Gawyn killed? I know she's Red, and doesn't see much use for men in general, but she heeded her little vision about Rand fairly well. Just rereading TGS, and in the last page or so of Nightfall, in his POV, Gawyn's thinking about the fact that he & the Younglings have been sent out.

'Three hundred youths against a force of over fifty thousand hardened soldiers, commanded by Gareth Bryne himself?'

And,

'It was enough to make a man think that the Amyrlin just wanted him, and the other Younglings, out of the way. Before Dumai's wells, Gawyn had suspected that was the case. Now he was growing certain.' 

 

Just seems a little peculiar to me. I know she's as mad as a badger in a lot of ways. Strange though.

 

[ed2funy]

The royal line of Andor is Rand.

Also, Red's are stupid blind worse than most AS

 

[aunt_pol]

You're absolutely right on both points, ed, but my point is, Elaida didn't know that. She'd have flat disbelieved anyone suggesting Rand to be Tigraine's. And, as others have covered very well, her Foretelling may have happened even during or before the Succession, but she decided for herself that Trakand was the appropriate House and ran with that. She's been banging on about it forever as regards Elayne. So why try to drop a steamroller (Gareth Bryne) on the other Trakand brat? Seems like too big a disparity to me.

[ed2funy]

I know...

But as to why she kept trying to kill Gawyn...

he was a guy who was only supposed to be the Prince of the Swords, or w/e....

How could he help win TG?

 

That is her reasoning....he is not the DR, he cannot channel (that we know of)...

 

She is blinded as an AS and more so as a Red.

How could a man be of any use to her?

[Bobbun]

Elaida has quite a difficult time ahead of her, if we have any real future glimpses of her character--I suppose it's possible that we could see no more than some Seanchan ruminating about the damane that Traveling was learned from.  She not only has the damane's life ahead of her, but she also has the hatred of many of the other damane as well.  The Aes Sedai who were taken with her can hardly fail to understand that their situation is at least partly her fault.

 

My personal belief is that they will get Traveling from her.  If she's rescued, it will be too late to stop that.  The Seanchan are going to be needed at Shayol Ghul, and they don't have enough time to get there without it.  With Traveling, Tuon/Fortuona could conceivably make some effort to regain her empire in Seanchan--IMO there's not enough book for that to be done in full, but some effort would fit in nicely with the name of the next book.

 

For what it's worth, I also believe that Elaida won't be damane for long.  Whether she's rescued or not, my expectation is that we'll see the end of that custom before the story is over.  I expect Tuon/Fortuona to have some significant changes to her understanding of the world soon, and her understanding of the proper role of men and women who can channel is going to be a big part of it.

 

[Teslan]

Perhaps she'll get to meet Liandrin, and thereby cause some DF kerfuffle?

 

Assuming Liandrin is still in Ebou Dar in some for or other.

[Sharaman]

Liandrin, Galina, Elaida, could all end up being loose threads that get ignored in the last two books. Or they may be reserved for some little twist. Difficult to say.

Liandrin simply doesn't seem important anymore.

Galina may come up again in the Avi plotline if the Shaido have got to Rhuidean and the Oath Rod becomes an useful object.

Elaida could play several roles - she knows travelling and is a foreteller and the Seanchan may decide to treat her "specially" as they did Amathera as a defeated enemy, who needs to be broken and exhibited.

 

 

[acerbus80]

Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse here, as I read through roughly half the thread before posting this, but here's my humble take on Elaida.

 

First off, I don't think we've seen the end of her.  She was too prominent of a character just to let fade to black.  And I'm not too sure about BS, but I got the impression that when a major character was about to be ousted from the story, especially a not so popular character, RJ liked to give a little POV and rub some salt in the wound.  Granted, I don't believe she'll have much more time in the spotlight, with possibly the exception of her revealing/not revealing traveling to the Seanchan.

 

On to that can of worms...Considering how quickly and deftly Alviarin managed to almost completely break down Elaida without the use of the power or an a'dam, I don't think the Seanchan, with their centuries of experience, are going to have too many problems with her.  They've broken every other AS they've taken, and I don't see Elaida being an exception.  The phrase "the taller they are, the further they fall" comes to mind.  And in Elaida's mind, nobody is taller than herself.

 

As far as revealing traveling goes, I see a few possible ways it can go.  RJ has never been one to shy away from complicating the plot or making life any easier for his characters, so with this in mind, for continuities sake, Elaida or any of the other captured AS may very well reveal traveling to the Seanchan.

 

However, as has been mentioned before in this thread, there are ways to possibly avoid this.  For one, all any sister has to do that has been caught is simply say "I will not reveal or teach traveling to any Seanchan."  Couple that with the first oath, and, it would seem, problem solved.  Unfortunately that seems to simple to me.

 

Another way to avoid teaching traveling would be for the sisters to believe it would be a weapon, or would be used as a weapon.  And knowing the Seanchan, it definately would be a weapon.  However, as always with the three oaths, this is a slippery slope and I doubt that it'll play out this way.

 

One idea I find intriguing is the thought of the Seanchan collaring BA.  If Egwene's dream is to be interpreted as collared AS assaulting the tower, one would almost have to assume that either the Seanchan eventually find a way to get around the three oaths, or they have collared AS not bound by the oaths...BA.  To really tangle that web up though, I'm curious as to how the three oaths taken by black sisters might conflict with their roles as Damane.  As far as I know (and I may very well be wrong here) the only oath we know of for sure that black sisters take is to not reveal themselves until the last hour of their lives.  If the Seanchan discover that they can indeed use certain AS as weapons, yet the black sisters can't reveal themselves, how will this play out with the non-black sisters who can't be used as weapons. 

 

Ah...so many possiblities...so little time.

[Sharaman]

Collared BA could indeed cause a puzzling conundrum. Of course, the Seanchan already know that AS have a block about being used as weapons so, they may not be forced to do it at all. Liandrin could actually be a final footnote in this area of speculation, perhaps.

 

An AS (non-black) saying she wouldn't reveal Travelling wouldn't work. She could say this if she thought it was true at the time she said it but if she changed her mind (and I suspect the Seanchan would find ways to make her change her mind), it would be possible for her to reveal Travelling without breaching the oath.

 

One way or another though, the Seanchan will get travelling soon enough. There are simply too many women who know the weaves now across Salidar AS, Windfinders, Kin, and Aiel, etc. Somebody will give it away soon enough even if it is not Elaida herself.

 

The weapon thing is really too far-fetched. So long as the Seanchan didn't tell a damane to slice up people while actually weaving the Gates, it wouldn't be a weapon. Egwene considered this angle and thought it was alright to transport soldiers. So other AS would also be able to rationalise around it.

 

 

 

[acerbus80]

Yeah, I never really held much stock in the "traveling as a weapon" idea, but I had to throw it out there.  I had forgotten about Egwene's own mulling over the subject as well.

 

 

[Tharand]

An AS (non-black) saying she wouldn't reveal Travelling wouldn't work. She could say this if she thought it was true at the time she said it but if she changed her mind (and I suspect the Seanchan would find ways to make her change her mind), it would be possible for her to reveal Travelling without breaching the oath.

 

But what about the Seanchan failing to understand the nature of Traveling? Perhaps they don't realize the limitations regarding knowing the place well enough and thereby assumes they can't use traveling? Perhaps traveling won't work through the a'dam somehow as another person is controlling. Would both persons then have to know the place well enough?

 

But if some of the captured AS gives away traveling I also believe Elaida would be the first to do it :)

[Sharaman]

Interesting thoughts. Can an involuntary link (like the A'dam creates) be used to Travel?

We've seen in Salidar / Aiel that when two Aiel or AS who are too weak to open Gates on their own, they can link to make a Gate. Hence, an involuntary circle can Travel if the damane is strong enough.

Do both have to know the place?

Well, we know that sul'dam can't initially see weaves - so they don't know the specific weaves for anything.

They just give permission to the damane to " make a skylight". "do healing", etc.

So they'd just give the directions to "Make a gate". I guess only the damane would have to know the gates since she's setting the weaves. The only time we've seen something close to this was Nyn-Moggy in TFoH. There, it all happens in T'AR and that complicates things a lot since it's not normal Travelling and Nyn can channel anyhow.

The limitations of knowing a place etc., they'll work out through experimentation.

 

 

[mb]

The adam (for saidar channelers) controls whether or not the damane can hold/embrace saidar.

The adam I take cannot prevent the damane from doing certain weaves when the damane is allowed to channel; though the suldam can cause pain if the damane does a different weave than the desired one.

 

 

About Elaida, to me it is good that she was captured by the Seanchan; she seemed to continually dismiss Aes Sedai concern about Seanchan.