Demandred (Full Spoilers).

[Sharaman]

Taim was indeed from Saldaea - that's stated either in the EotW when the false dragons are mentioned, or in FoH and LoC when Bashere explains to Rand why he was chasing Taim. He raised his army in Saldaea and he was fighting there when Falme happened and he was knocked out.

[thewalrus777]

Taim is not Demandred. RJ said. you know, the guy that CREATED the series? the AUTHOR? yeah him.

 

And to add to why Taim is not Demi, RJ stated that we had yet to meet Demi's alter ego as of KoD. Wether or not we've met him in tGS is yet to be determined. IMO I don't think we've met him yet, still.

[Nethran Thaimal]

I was sure he was probably Taim, but now I'm not so much.  Either way, though, there is a way to sidestep RJ's words, in a post a made a few pages back.

[RogreOgre]

I think Lan will turn out to be Demandred.  That will turn out to be the big surprise.  All he would have to do is disguise his nose and make just minor modifications to his face for Rand and others not to recognize him. He has the heights, build, and skills him.  He was on the side of good for so long it wouldn't be a stretch for him to hide as a warder for all of these years.

 

I'm just not sure when he took on the persona of "Lan".  What happened to the real Lan?  Did he die in the initial raid?

 

Remember how towards the end of "Gathering" Nynaeve wondered how Min must feel about Rand now that he has an hard, evilness to him?  That was foreshadowing of Nynaeve's own situation. 

 

In the end, Nynaeve will have to choose between Lan and Rand and will choose Rand.  The bigger question is how will Demandred/Lan respond. 

[Nethran Thaimal]

Not likely that he's Lan, lol.  The bond takes care of that.  Moiraine would have felt the bond sever when Demandred took over.  If not her, Lans current Aes Sedai, whose name I'm brainfarting on right now, would have felt it since the bond immediately changed over to her.  Her name starts with an M.  And she has an Illianer Warder named Croi.  And 2 others.  But I ca't remember her name. :(

 

 

MAYBE HE'S SULIN! D: !!!!  :D

[RogreOgre]

I'm saying that Lan was Demandred when Moiraine first bonded him. 

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

He wasn't out of the bore yet.  Ishy had some freedom from time to time, but Demandred was pretty deep in there.

[RogreOgre]

Taim is a "red herring".  RJ already told us he is not Demandred.  

 

The fact that it is such a mystery would lead me to believe it is someone we consider one of Rand's allies.  I still content that somehow it is Lan.  But, if Demandred is not Lan and not Taim, then who? Otherwise then why all of secrecy?

[Sharaman]

It could be Berelain. She's always been my favourite Demandred candidate.

 

[JakeBarnes]

Because, for the millionth time, As of Crossroads of Twilight, Demandred's persona had not been seen on-screen.  Not Taim.  Not Lan.  Not Anyone who has given a direct POV or who was seen or interacted with through someone else's POV on screen.  

[Nethran Thaimal]

People keep saying "It can't be Taim because Robert Jordan said this, or because so and so said that."  Robert Jordan himself made a comment about what can be hidden in the kind of straightforwardness he showed.  True comments can be misleading, because there's a way around his words to where "Taim" can still be Demandred.  Just because RJ said something doesn't mean it meant what you thought it did.  In my opinion, he crafted his words very carefully to make it seem like he said what he did not.  Like an Aes Sedai.

 

The best reasons for Demandred not being "Taim" have nothing to do with anything RJ said.

[Impressive Bosom]

People keep saying "It can't be Taim because Robert Jordan said this, or because so and so said that."  Robert Jordan himself made a comment about what can be hidden in the kind of straightforwardness he showed.  True comments can be misleading, because there's a way around his words to where "Taim" can still be Demandred.  Just because RJ said something doesn't mean it meant what you thought it did.  In my opinion, he crafted his words very carefully to make it seem like he said what he did not.  Like an Aes Sedai.

 

The best reasons for Demandred not being "Taim" have nothing to do with anything RJ said.

 

In my opinion almost everything points to Demi being Taim, even to the point of his vague comment that 'his armies are ready' (i.e. DF Asha'man) and Taim's 'Lord of Chaos' comment... there are so many, many clues that point to Taim, except, of course, the author himself who proportedly flatly denied the connection. Personally, I find the fact that it took 10 books or more to get to see Demi's alter ego a bit of a gyp but I've learned to trust the story.

 

One thought is that Taim was a real person, and that Demi removed him and took his role as the Ma'Hael, which would allow RJ's words to be technically true. Anyway... he might not be Taim, but he should have been.

 

 

[Vermillion]

People keep saying "It can't be Taim because Robert Jordan said this, or because so and so said that."  Robert Jordan himself made a comment about what can be hidden in the kind of straightforwardness he showed.  True comments can be misleading, because there's a way around his words to where "Taim" can still be Demandred.  Just because RJ said something doesn't mean it meant what you thought it did.  In my opinion, he crafted his words very carefully to make it seem like he said what he did not.  Like an Aes Sedai.

 

The best reasons for Demandred not being "Taim" have nothing to do with anything RJ said.

 

In my opinion almost everything points to Demi being Taim, even to the point of his vague comment that 'his armies are ready' (i.e. DF Asha'man) and Taim's 'Lord of Chaos' comment... there are so many, many clues that point to Taim, except, of course, the author himself who proportedly flatly denied the connection. Personally, I find the fact that it took 10 books or more to get to see Demi's alter ego a bit of a gyp but I've learned to trust the story.

 

One thought is that Taim was a real person, and that Demi removed him and took his role as the Ma'Hael, which would allow RJ's words to be technically true. Anyway... he might not be Taim, but he should have been.

 

 

 

I think Demmy doesn't recognize the Asha'man at the cleansing proves he is not Taim.  But I think that he was supposed to be Taim at one point. 

 

The nose, the sayings(Lords of Chaos, so called Aes Sedia, etc), the knowledge(ability to find male channlers, finding a DO seal, surviving without madness looking in his 30's but could be even older due to OP age slowing) and being seemingly being pissed at being second to Rand all fit to Demmy. 

[Impressive Bosom]

People keep saying "It can't be Taim because Robert Jordan said this, or because so and so said that."  Robert Jordan himself made a comment about what can be hidden in the kind of straightforwardness he showed.  True comments can be misleading, because there's a way around his words to where "Taim" can still be Demandred.  Just because RJ said something doesn't mean it meant what you thought it did.  In my opinion, he crafted his words very carefully to make it seem like he said what he did not.  Like an Aes Sedai.

 

The best reasons for Demandred not being "Taim" have nothing to do with anything RJ said.

 

In my opinion almost everything points to Demi being Taim, even to the point of his vague comment that 'his armies are ready' (i.e. DF Asha'man) and Taim's 'Lord of Chaos' comment... there are so many, many clues that point to Taim, except, of course, the author himself who proportedly flatly denied the connection. Personally, I find the fact that it took 10 books or more to get to see Demi's alter ego a bit of a gyp but I've learned to trust the story.

 

One thought is that Taim was a real person, and that Demi removed him and took his role as the Ma'Hael, which would allow RJ's words to be technically true. Anyway... he might not be Taim, but he should have been.

 

 

 

I think Demmy doesn't recognize the Asha'man at the cleansing proves he is not Taim.  But I think that he was supposed to be Taim at one point. 

 

The nose, the sayings(Lords of Chaos, so called Aes Sedia, etc), the knowledge(ability to find male channlers, finding a DO seal, surviving without madness looking in his 30's but could be even older due to OP age slowing) and being seemingly being pissed at being second to Rand all fit to Demmy. 

 

LOTS of things do... and almost nothing doesn't. Are you saying you think it was originally intended and written as if Taim was Demi, and then along the way the author decided he had a better idea and chose at that late hour to make him a red herring?

[Sharaman]

For the purpose of argument forget RJ's denial of Taim = Demandred.

Why does Demandred fail to recognise Flinn or even Ashaman uniform at Shadar Logoth if he's Taim or impersonating Taim?

Perhaps because Demandred is not Taim.

Why does Flinn fail to recognise his teacher at Shadar Logoth?

Perhaps because Demandred doesn't look like Taim.  

Also why does LTT / RaT fail to recognise Demandred since he knows Barid Bel Thingummy pretty well?

Perhaps because Taim doesn't look like Demandred.

 

One way around this would be Mask of Mirrors except

1) Taim cannot have been using MoM when he and Rand met in LoC. There were Saldaean swords poking him and touch destroys MoM.

Plus he was not holding Saidin at the time. Rand was pretty sure about that and while you can invert weaves, two Saidin channelers in close proximity can always detect if either is hplding Saidin.

Or else Halima would not have had a problem in Salidar or Shadar Logoth.

 

So despite the similar physical description, Taim wasn't holding MoM and he doesn't look like Demandred.

 

2) I've heard it suggested that he had somehow put on a TP MoM. But Taim channels OP multiple times onscreen without ever changing appearance. So either he can use TP (without GLoD's permission!) and channel OP at the same time or he wasn't using a TP MoM.

 

Ergo Taim isn't using a TP MoM and he doesn't actually look like Demandred.

 

Yes, I've posted this thing before but I'll post it again everytime the

"Taim=Demandred and RJ was lying" comes up

 

I've not received coherent rebuttals of the above - ever.

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

As I said, the best reasons have nothing to do with RJs words.

[witsd]

Because, for the millionth time, As of Crossroads of Twilight, Demandred's persona had not been seen on-screen.  Not Taim.  Not Lan.  Not Anyone who has given a direct POV or who was seen or interacted with through someone else's POV on screen.

 

Leaving King Roedran who had very little effective power, but who is now suddenly pulling things together. Right in the centre of Rand's 'conquered' lands. Hmm...

[Vermillion]

For the purpose of argument forget RJ's denial of Taim = Demandred.

Why does Demandred fail to recognise Flinn or even Ashaman uniform at Shadar Logoth if he's Taim or impersonating Taim?

Perhaps because Demandred is not Taim.

Why does Flinn fail to recognise his teacher at Shadar Logoth?

Perhaps because Demandred doesn't look like Taim.  

Also why does LTT / RaT fail to recognise Demandred since he knows Barid Bel Thingummy pretty well?

Perhaps because Taim doesn't look like Demandred.

 

One way around this would be Mask of Mirrors except

1) Taim cannot have been using MoM when he and Rand met in LoC. There were Saldaean swords poking him and touch destroys MoM.

Plus he was not holding Saidin at the time. Rand was pretty sure about that and while you can invert weaves, two Saidin channelers in close proximity can always detect if either is hplding Saidin.

Or else Halima would not have had a problem in Salidar or Shadar Logoth.

 

So despite the similar physical description, Taim wasn't holding MoM and he doesn't look like Demandred.

 

2) I've heard it suggested that he had somehow put on a TP MoM. But Taim channels OP multiple times onscreen without ever changing appearance. So either he can use TP (without GLoD's permission!) and channel OP at the same time or he wasn't using a TP MoM.

 

Ergo Taim isn't using a TP MoM and he doesn't actually look like Demandred.

 

Yes, I've posted this thing before but I'll post it again everytime the

"Taim=Demandred and RJ was lying" comes up

 

I've not received coherent rebuttals of the above - ever.

 

 

 

Where does the rule that you can't be touched with MoM. I could have sworn Lanfear touched people as Salene or whatever her name was?

[Sharaman]

The MoM weaves get disrupted if somebody is touched.

We've heard this several times en

Interesting thought

Lanfear as far as I can remember touched Rand only when he was unconscious (and she healed him) after Falme.

Min saw her at that time but Rand didn't -- she may have been in her normal skin.

She tempted Rand in the maybe-world but I don't think she touched him either there, or once they were back in normal space.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

It becomes disrupted less the closer to reality you weave it.  If he kept it to reality aside from some aspects of his own face, would it not be easy to fool others with little risk to being discovered?

[Sharaman]

It becomes disrupted less the closer to reality you weave it.  If he kept it to reality aside from some aspects of his own face, would it not be easy to fool others with little risk to being discovered?

And why would he fail to recognise Flinn even if he managed this?

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I wasn't arguing the Taimandred theory again, just that singular point. :)

[BladeDancer]

One way around this would be Mask of Mirrors except

1) Taim cannot have been using MoM when he and Rand met in LoC. There were Saldaean swords poking him and touch destroys MoM.

 

In LOC Demandred states that only the most subtle of illusions can fool the test of touch. So it is possible to weave a disguise that can be touched but the illusion must be pretty close to reality.

 

I don't believe Taim is Demandred though or that Taim was using a disguise when meeting Rand.

[Baramos]

Hah, it takes a lot of guts to say that Demandred is Lan and took over his life prior to Moiraine bonding him, what with an entire book at least partially from his perspective (New Spring).

 

The Borderlanders at Far Madding makes the most sense to me in one way, except Demandred wanting to have a non-One Power battle with Rand is reckless, but it does fit with Demandred's personality (I think Demandred was supposed to be the reckless general whereas Sammael was all about defense), and it's definitely thinking outside the box.

 

I never thought of Murandy, and it's probably because I barely pay attention to so many of what appear to be side-plots in the novels until the author goes ahead and shows me the error of not paying enough attention to all the little things happening in the background. Anyway this is the other theory that sounded the strongest.

 

Agree that introducing Shara at this point as an active player would be somewhat hackneyed, though it's entirely possible that RJ did mean to fully flesh them out and introduce them earlier but never got around to it, but did have really large plot points involving them.

 

Isle of Madmen has been rendered pretty much non-canonical at this point, I'm pretty sure. There's a bunch of other stuff in The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time that doesn't match up with anything in the books (like the War of Shadow lasting decades as opposed to only about ten years in the books) or has been "updated" and so forth. It's basically never been mentioned in the books ever and it is an even farther distant possibility for Demandred's location than Shara.

 

Demandred as Weiramon is interesting, though I don't think Weiramon is much more than a darkfriend who plays dumb.

 

Demandred as Elayne's captain of the knights was one of the stranger theories I've heard, I really don't see any strength behind this, other than that he wasn't introduced until after Lord of Chaos, and he's super-handsome, and supposedly Demandred would want to mask himself as super-handsome due to inadequacies. But it doesn't really make sense for such a minor character to be Demandred.

[Blademaster Breaker]

Hah, it takes a lot of guts to say that Demandred is Lan and took over his life prior to Moiraine bonding him, what with an entire book at least partially from his perspective (New Spring).

 

The Borderlanders at Far Madding makes the most sense to me in one way, except Demandred wanting to have a non-One Power battle with Rand is reckless, but it does fit with Demandred's personality (I think Demandred was supposed to be the reckless general whereas Sammael was all about defense), and it's definitely thinking outside the box.

 

I never thought of Murandy, and it's probably because I barely pay attention to so many of what appear to be side-plots in the novels until the author goes ahead and shows me the error of not paying enough attention to all the little things happening in the background. Anyway this is the other theory that sounded the strongest.

 

Agree that introducing Shara at this point as an active player would be somewhat hackneyed, though it's entirely possible that RJ did mean to fully flesh them out and introduce them earlier but never got around to it, but did have really large plot points involving them.

 

Isle of Madmen has been rendered pretty much non-canonical at this point, I'm pretty sure. There's a bunch of other stuff in The World of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time that doesn't match up with anything in the books (like the War of Shadow lasting decades as opposed to only about ten years in the books) or has been "updated" and so forth. It's basically never been mentioned in the books ever and it is an even farther distant possibility for Demandred's location than Shara.

 

Demandred as Weiramon is interesting, though I don't think Weiramon is much more than a darkfriend who plays dumb.

 

Demandred as Elayne's captain of the knights was one of the stranger theories I've heard, I really don't see any strength behind this, other than that he wasn't introduced until after Lord of Chaos, and he's super-handsome, and supposedly Demandred would want to mask himself as super-handsome due to inadequacies. But it doesn't really make sense for such a minor character to be Demandred.

Halima was a relatively minor character...