The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Dreamwalker]

Another question leading to a clever revelation of my thoughts...Has Mat ever won against Olver when playing the Snakes and Foxes game?  Olver from what I remember always wins and plays it constantly.  This leads me to think that something with that compulsion people have said Noal is under will prevent him from going, leaving Olver the one that accompanies Mat and Thom into the Tower.  He also spoke with Birgitte about the tower and might remember other bits of her faded memories to help them.  

 

Also about Aludra's fire sticks, strikers, Light forbid we call them "Matches" this likely will play out as far as the Finns, enter with no fire, yet strike one and there's fire to blind them I think.  What are the other two things?  Iron or music to bind?  Maybe the music repository ter'angreal and a steel cap to protect Mat's thoughts while there?  Just my thoughts, but after the next book I expect people will be outside Brandon's house and lining the streets begging him to hurry and complete the last book!  

 

As others pointed out, they've never won. However, it is interesting to note that Mat has never rolled the dice for their games - he has Olver or someone else do it. This begs the question - if Mat rolled, could they actually win? Or are the rules such that it is literally impossible to win (not just a 1 in a trillion chance of winning - so unlikely that no one actually has won, but still theoretically possible)

[Terez]

Probably.  When Mat diced Comar in Tear, he felt the weights in Comar's dice shift.  If Mat rolled for snakes and foxes....well, if it wasn't important, probably nothing would happen.  But if it's important, then the game board is only made of cloth.  ;)

 

Of course, we're meant to consider this question as a prelude to the Tower of Ghenjei, and the old dealings in question.

[bronnt]

As others pointed out, they've never won. However, it is interesting to note that Mat has never rolled the dice for their games - he has Olver or someone else do it. This begs the question - if Mat rolled, could they actually win? Or are the rules such that it is literally impossible to win (not just a 1 in a trillion chance of winning - so unlikely that no one actually has won, but still theoretically possible)

 

I think it is literally impossible, and Mat's afraid that if he rolls the dice they'll end up standing on corners and edges since the game is impossible.  He says he has no idea what would happen if he were rolling the dice for the game.  Since the game is supposed to make you realize that winning is impossible without cheating, I'm sure that there comes a point where kids run the numbers (Ie, if I roll optimally every single toss, does that win?) and find out the game is rigged.

 

It's interesting because it serves a dual purpose within the plot.  Birgitte calls it a "remembrance of old dealings," but it also seems a lessons that grown-ups in various parts of the world use to illustrate that life isn't fair.  It's a long lesson, surely, since we've seen how persistent Olver can be with his attempts to win the game, but according to Mat, everyone eventually does come to an understanding about the game.  It's also a lesson that the Snakes and Foxes rig the game so that they'll win every time, unless you cheat-if you understand what the game represents.

[OptimusPrime]

Okay heres the deal.

 

Ishamael got Taims body. The way he keeps his disguise involves the True Power and the source of the "less than half human" aspect of Ishamael, and this all ties in to Moridins connection to the Dark One, the existence of Shaidar, and how Rand will sacrifice himself yet survive. Im going to do a huge writeup, and it will be called Marmite.

 

I am 100% sure I have found it. It is not what we have seen that is the main thing, it is whats going on underneath all this. Seeing as this writeup is going to take a while I'll give you a hint. When Ishamael died the Dark One had hold of his soul for a time. In its less than half human state, the True Power has corrupted Ishamaels thread and now that the Dark One has it, he can mess about with it. Like, attach a shadowy part of himself to it, a part of him that is retractable yet relies on something from the Pattern ie Taims body in order to exist outside the Prison and within the Pattern. Moridin is Taim, Shaidar is NOT Moridin, but Shaidar and Moridin cannot exist at the same time in the same manner that Luc and Isam cant.

 

And that is the tip of the ice berg.

[Sharaman]

Okay heres the deal.

 

Ishamael got Taims body. The way he keeps his disguise involves the True Power and the source of the "less than half human" aspect of Ishamael, and this all ties in to Moridins connection to the Dark One, the existence of Shaidar, and how Rand will sacrifice himself yet survive. Im going to do a huge writeup, and it will be called Marmite.

 

I am 100% sure I have found it. It is not what we have seen that is the main thing, it is whats going on underneath all this. Seeing as this writeup is going to take a while I'll give you a hint. When Ishamael died the Dark One had hold of his soul for a time. In its less than half human state, the True Power has corrupted Ishamaels thread and now that the Dark One has it, he can mess about with it. Like, attach a shadowy part of himself to it, a part of him that is retractable yet relies on something from the Pattern ie Taims body in order to exist outside the Prison and within the Pattern. Moridin is Taim, Shaidar is NOT Moridin, but Shaidar and Moridin cannot exist at the same time in the same manner that Luc and Isam cant.

 

And that is the tip of the ice berg.

 

Didn't RJ say "Taim is Taim"?

 

 

[OptimusPrime]

I certainly hope so because posting what Im thinking about is a seeeeeerious long shot crackpot type thing

[coreybickle]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting here. I have a theory, though I haven't read enough of the other posts to notice if it has been mentioned before.

 

In book four, there is a scene with Thom Merrilin and Moiraine in Thom's room. When Thom enters his room to find Moiraine there he thinks what a fine woman she is. Especially because she laughs at his quips.

 

I notice some implied sexual tension here. Perhaps Thom and Moiraine are going to marry? Or maybe in the tower of Ganja Moiraine will decide she needs a new warder?

 

I remember instances in almost all the books following book 4 that has Thom or Moiraine thinking of each other fondly. And in Moiraine's letter to Thom she refers to him as "My dearest Thom,"

That's awfully familiar for Moiraine if you ask me.

 

 

Any thoughts? Is this relevant enough?

[Random Man]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting here. I have a theory, though I haven't read enough of the other posts to notice if it has been mentioned before.

 

In book four, there is a scene with Thom Merrilin and Moiraine in Thom's room. When Thom enters his room to find Moiraine there he thinks what a fine woman she is. Especially because she laughs at his quips.

 

I notice some implied sexual tension here. Perhaps Thom and Moiraine are going to marry? Or maybe in the tower of Ganja Moiraine will decide she needs a new warder?

 

I remember instances in almost all the books following book 4 that has Thom or Moiraine thinking of each other fondly. And in Moiraine's letter to Thom she refers to him as "My dearest Thom,"

That's awfully familiar for Moiraine if you ask me.

 

 

Any thoughts? Is this relevant enough?

Relevant, probably, but it's certainly been discussed to a great extent. Thom and Moiraine ending up together has been predicted for some time. Good eyes, though, and personally I didn't even think about Thom getting bonded before. Thom's comments in TGS appear to say that he's feeling his old age. Perhaps a Warder bond wouldn't make him feel so old and creaky.

[Blackhoof]

I never considered it until i saw it on this forum. Im not very observant.

[Random Man]

I never considered it until i saw it on this forum. Im not very observant.

Have you been lurking on WOT fan-driven Web sites for more than the past decade? Because if not, your lack of noticing has nothing to do with not being observant. The Moiraine-Thom romance got first put about in the late 1990s (after we found out in LoC when Mat delivered her letter to Thom) and really hasn't been touched on much since, probably because it got taken as reasonably assumed as "will happen" by then. You were probably doing something much more productive than I was at the time  :D

[lammbo]

Or maybe in the tower of Ganja Moiraine will decide she needs a new warder?

 

If I was locked up in the tower of Ganja, I'm not so sure I would want to leave :D

[clu7ch]

ROFLCOPTER she should bond matt. that'd be hilarious and ironic.

 

also, welcome corey. we're not all freaks here.

ok

we are.

but still.

[coreybickle]

Have we ever discovered whether or not this BUT has been discussed on previous forums? There was a quote on an interview I read somewhere that the *Mary and find out* girl had at least hinted it had been discussed somewhere.

[unlabled]

Haven't seen this yet.

 

The Shadow Rising Pg. 128, just after Moiraine sends Joiya and Amico back to their cells, talking to Egwene, Elayne and Nynaeve about Rand's reluctance to move from the Stone:

 

He must act, or he will die.  From a crossbow bolt in his back, or poison in his body or the Forsaken banding together to rip his soul from his body.  He must act or die.

    :o

 

Wait what did she say?!  I mean it could be here Moiraine just making something up here but it seems quite specific. 

 

Can the Forsaken team up and rip Rand's soul from his body?  If yes, will this come into play vis a vis Moridin/body swap theory??

[Terez]

Moiraine might possibly have been talking about the 13-13 circle, but taking Rand's soul is what Ishamael was trying to do to Rand in their battle in the Stone:

 

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn

CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy

 

Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes. "Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"

 

  As Ba'alzamon put forth his hand, Rand pushed himself up, threw himself desperately toward Callandor, still glittering and flashing in midair. He did not know whether he could reach it, or touch it if he did, but he was sure it was his only chance.

 

  Ba'alzamon's blow struck him as he leapt, struck inside him, a ripping and crumpling, tearing something loose, trying to pull a part of him away. Rand screamed. He felt as if he were collapsing like an empty sack, as if he were being turned inside out. The pain in his side, the wound taken at Falme, was almost welcome, something to hang onto, a reminder of life. His hand closed convulsively. On Callandor's hilt.

 

Since Ishamael said that he was taking Rand's soul to serve the Dark One 'in death', I don't think it is all that indicative of a body-swap.  And since Min's viewing says that they 'seemed to merge', I don't think that is all that indicative of a body-swap either.  But that's just me.  I figure that Rand will have to die in order to sever the link between himself and Moridin before it gets so strong that Rand's soul would be the Dark One's by default.

[Dida]

I figure that Rand will have to die in order to sever the link between himself and Moridin before it gets so strong that Rand's soul would be the Dark One's by default.

 

  Rand's needs to die, because he is sick now with two different sources of evil. One of the Shadow and one from that Fain's red ruby dagger.  Just as the ward of Saidar is failing to keep the Dark Ones from breaking out of the Bore, the ward keeping the twin evils from infecting Rand's body is failing too.

 

  Considering that what happens to Rand's current body directly effects the land of that world. Rand needs to die, after sealing that Bore again... otherwise, the world will die itself, regardless.

 

  Rand's mental link to Moridin is another risk to the world too. Yet shouldn't that merger and/or fight to the death, occur before Rand ends up dying?  Assisted somehow by the former Seanchan damane Alivia, according to one of Min's visions (KoD and tGS books).  After all, Moridin needs to be done with and a dead man, for there to be a new Golden Age, no?

[Terez]

Nah, Rand will do for Moridin when he gets resurrected, this time without the link to warn Moridin he's coming.  Or for all we know, Mat might do for Moridin, after he gets his medallion back.

[FarShainMael]

Mat and the Two Rivers longbow of black yew.

 

In Kod Ch 6, Mat finds a stave of black yew and buys it from a woman who apparently did not realise what it was, she thought it was a quarterstaff. He intends to make himself a longbow. He wonders how it came to be there, as he was sure black yew only grew in the TR.

 

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/kod/ch6.html

 

 

An IdealSeek search on TR longbow yields this:

 

Your Search: two rivers longbow

Matches Found: 9

Entries: 9

 

The Shadow Rising (4)

-----------------

 

Chapter 13

 

he would like to see this thing try to deflect a shaft from a Two Rivers longbow

 

Chapter 37

 

a good Two Rivers longbow could shoot six arrows while a crossbowman was still cranking back the bowstring for his second shot

 

Chapter 40

 

though he doubted she could even draw a Two Rivers longbow

 

Chapter 53

 

she could not draw a man's Two Rivers longbow

 

Lord of Chaos (6)

-------------

 

Chapter 5

 

Not the Two Rivers longbow Mat had grown up with

 

The Path of Daggers

-------------------

 

Chapter 10

 

much shorter than a Two Rivers longbow though longer than the horn bows of the Aiel

 

Winter's Heart

--------------

 

Chapter 6

 

a Two Rivers longbow would put a pile shaft right through a breastplate

 

Knife of Dreams

---------------

 

Chapter 4

 

and that armor won't do much good against a Two Rivers longbow

 

Chapter 29

 

it took a lifetime to learn the Two Rivers longbow

 

 

Similarly, a search on 'black yew' gives:

 

Your Search: black yew

Matches Found: 5

Entries: 5

 

Winter's Heart

--------------

 

Chapter 30

 

Good black yew was almost impossible to find outside the Two Rivers

 

Knife of Dreams

---------------

 

Chapter 6

 

a slim stave of what appeared to be black yew

 

Her presence here was as mystifying as the black yew

 

How in the Light had black yew come to be in southern Altara

 

It was black yew

 

 

Let's look at the BUT criteria.

 

The Ongoing Factor

Yes the TR longbow appears in Books 4 and 6. And it is definitely 'an object that is doing something/being used'.

 

The Discussion Factor

A DM search only reveals ONE mention of the word 'longbow'.

 

Revelation Requirements

It should have attracted attention from anyone who's ever heard of Robin Hood, as the longbow was his weapon of choice.

 

Presence in the Later Books

It is referenced in many of the other books, as is the associated skill of archery. (Could Birgitte draw one of these I wonder..) And now (KoD, book 11) Mat 'ta'veren' Cauthon has found the makings of one.

 

Potential Impact

Would the 'finns recognise a stave of black yew for what it is and can be used for, any more than that shopkeeper would? Is Mat about to add 'Robin Hood' to his string of warrior-parallels?

 

 

[Sharaman]

The TR longbow comes up first in EotW itself so its referenced earlier as well.

Lan tells the three something like "that is a helluva of a weapon".

More than Robin Hood, RJ would have been referencing Crecy (1346) and Agincourt (1415) with the TR bow - both classic battles where yeomen with longbows destroyed the armoured knights of France.

All of Perrin's TR men carry it and Tam's probably the best archer in the world with Mat's dad being a close second.

What could turn the weapon into an unexpected plot element?

 

 

 

[FarShainMael]

Possibly use in the ToG, which is why I mentioned the 'finns. Now that would be cheating!

 

Agreed about the battles BTW, and of course there's Perrin's Battle of the Two Rivers.

 

What drew my eye was the fact that Mat found that black yew stave, very late on in the series, in Book 11. Something's up.

 

[Dreamwalker]

Possibly use in the ToG, which is why I mentioned the 'finns. Now that would be cheating!

 

Agreed about the battles BTW, and of course there's Perrin's Battle of the Two Rivers.

 

What drew my eye was the fact that Mat found that black yew stave, very late on in the series, in Book 11. Something's up.

 

 

I agree that Mat will use it for something, and probably something important (the only weapons he'd been carrying for quite a while before that were his knives and the ashandarei) - there has to be a reason that he found it and that it was even mentioned. However, I don't think it's the BUT (for the reasons Sharaman gave, particularly that the longbows have been mentioned since tEotW)

 

I do like your idea that maybe Birgitte could use it, if she's got the arm strength - Mat is heading to Caemlyn, after all. That would be sweet.

[FarShainMael]

Agreed that bows in the TR are indeed mentioned earlier than book 4, the word 'longbow' is not used until then, which I agree is somewhat nitpicky and only lets the BUT in at a stretch. However, as Sharaman points out, the English/Welsh longbow is a very significant weapon indeed. Just ask the French (just don't give them the two fingers, sorry to any French people reading this). Granted, also, this aspect of things has already mostly been covered by Lord Perrin Goldeneyes. So I wait to watch how it will figure!

 

As for Birgitte using it, bows used in mediaeval England had an estimated draw weight of 150-200 lb. A few years ago I used to shoot a composite recurve with a draw weight of 33 lb, and with my flabby muscles it could be a bit of an effort. But Birgitte is a lot fitter and stronger, and a HotH to boot. She might manage.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longbow

 

[NetSlider]

By the way, was it ever stated that Ashandarei's blade is made of steel? Can't find anything on encyclopedia-wot and from what I remember we are told that the blade is black in color (or I might be confusing something). In any event, this whole Ashandarei talk got me thinking.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Is it possible that the Ashandarei is a Ter'Angreal with an unknown use?

[papertiger]

It would fit in with the Eelfinn's trickery to give Mat a hidden ter'angreal in addition to the medallion. Birgitte seemed to identify it as a classic weapon, however. Besides, Mat's thing is firearms. Shootout in the ToG for sure.