The Big (Currently) Unoticed Thing In Books 4-6 (Mistborn Spoilers)

[Plagueis]

I don't have a good argument about how the voice would know  stuff if it's not LTT.  My hole view is based on;  If it is LTT, why RAFO it?

 

What question was RAFO'd? If it was "Will the voice in Rand's head come back?" or something along those lines then it is obvious why it was RAFO'd.

[Dredlord]

1. Question -   How extensive were RJ’s notes about Lews Therin?

 

1. Answer -   His notes about Lews Therin, I would say are about middle extensive, comparatively of different things that he has notes on. Les than some, more than others. They were extensive enough that I know enough things you don’t know to make me excited, but not so extensive that you know, you are ever going to see a book about Lews Therin or anything like that.

 

2. Question -   As a followup question, are the notes about Lews Therin the same notes about the voice of Lews Therin’s?

 

2. Answer -  You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book.

 

That's pretty much a RAFO But even if its not... he won't say the voice was LTT so there is some conjecture that it might not be!

[Plagueis]

1. Question -   How extensive were RJ’s notes about Lews Therin?

 

1. Answer -   His notes about Lews Therin, I would say are about middle extensive, comparatively of different things that he has notes on. Les than some, more than others. They were extensive enough that I know enough things you don’t know to make me excited, but not so extensive that you know, you are ever going to see a book about Lews Therin or anything like that.

 

2. Question -   As a followup question, are the notes about Lews Therin the same notes about the voice of Lews Therin’s?

 

2. Answer -  You know I think that’s enough of a spoiler because there is still confusion or not confusion, wondering from people whether or not Lews Therin is the voice, I mean, of course Semirhage said that it is… Robert Jordan never really made that explicit himself. What I think and what you think may be different and so we’ll just leave it. There are things about this in the book.

 

That's pretty much a RAFO But even if its not... he won't say the voice was LTT so there is some conjecture that it might not be!

 

Oh ok. I see what you are getting at, though I personally don't think the voice has anything to do with the unnoticed thing. At the end of tGS (I hope spoilers are ok in this thread?) Rand think he has heard the last of the voice. It is interesting to think that while Rand is dark and hard that the voice is talking to him, then when he lightens up the voice leaves...makes me think it was the DO after all.

 

Regardless, I can't see how this is a small thing that was first mentioned in books 4-6 that will change our entire perspective of the book.

[Demiandre]

In VoG, there is a sentence which says that he remembered all his past lives. so what if LTT's voice was just his madness, a schizophrenical way to explain to himself how he knows what he knows? And Semi said that if the voice is real, then reintegration is hard. But the voice wasn't real. I don't know how to explain it but here it is...

[Calderis]

That's pretty much a RAFO But even if its not... he won't say the voice was LTT so there is some conjecture that it might not be!

 

That wasn't a RAFO at all. That was Brandon saying RJ never felt the need to say if The voice was "really" LTT or not, and that it's open to interpretation. Beyond that, don't start up the "is the voice real" conversation here, seein as there have already been 2 threads about it.

[mossman87]

Still saying it's the fat man angreal!

 

On the subject of TAR and in the flesh, there is certainly something to the inner workings of TAR, but I'm not sure if it's what BS is talking about, there's definitely a lot we don't know about it.  We know it's the reflection of the Pattern, and RJ has said you can pretty much do anything in it, but knowledge is limited so most characters don't do much.  To me it seems to be the "in-between" of all the Patterns, and all the Wheels (If either even exist beyond the one we've seen), of constantly moving energy (One Power), but who knows.

 

It just seems like too broad a topic, and a fundamental part of the whole story to be some small, forgotten thing.  I think the encyclopedia will explain it in detail though, and I can't wait for it.  Definitely seems like another crazy thing out of physics.

[Awakened]

It may not be possible, but I would love for it to have been Moirane.

[Morsker]

T'A'R may just be a setting element, in the same "New Age" style as channeling spiritual energy, and being at the threshold of a new age.

 

I'd love for it to be more than just a setting element, but I don't think it has to be.

 

[Luckers]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

[StefanR]

It might have to do with the fact that Rhuidean was blocked in TAR, but after Rand went and cleared all the fog etc, people were able to visit it in TAR.

 

The ogier steddings have a reflection in TAR, you just can't enter them.

 

I think it was in CoS where Egwene was dreaming and ran into some sort of wall that was made up of tons of symbols from the AoL AS.

 

It's been reiterated that certain places can't be visited, but not how Rhuidean was blocked and then became available. That might hold the key to a bunch of TAR related stuff.

[thewalrus777]

It might have to do with the fact that Rhuidean was blocked in TAR, but after Rand went and cleared all the fog etc, people were able to visit it in TAR.

 

The ogier steddings have a reflection in TAR, you just can't enter them.

 

I think it was in CoS where Egwene was dreaming and ran into some sort of wall that was made up of tons of symbols from the AoL AS.

 

It's been reiterated that certain places can't be visited, but not how Rhuidean was blocked and then became available. That might hold the key to a bunch of TAR related stuff.

 

IMO Rhuidean was warded by the Aes Sedai that were with the Jenn Aiel. Just like how dreams can be warded, they did it to the city, to prevent unwanted visitors. The other things that can't be gotten to in T'A'R are different all together. Stedding can't be visited in T'A'R due to them being from another world. And the Blight can't get visited due to DO's direct touch.

[78WARLOCK]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

[78WARLOCK]

First of all, I haven't been to this thread since I started my first re-read of the series. I just read ch. 23 of tSR a moment ago, and hurried to my computer excitedly to share what I thought I might have been the first to discover. I am glad I noticed it in the book before seeing it here though, in any case. I am in agreement with the idea that the significant thing is the warning Egwene receives about entering TAR in the flesh.

 

Why Brandon said books 4-6.

 

Book 4 - Perrin is warned by his Wolf Brother "You are here TOO STRONG Young Bull"

Perrin Entered TAR in the flesh. I have not re-read Book 4 yet but I have still read it half a dozen times over the years.

 

Book 5 - Rand enters TAR by chasing Ravin.

 

Book 6 - Egwene Travels to Salidar by entering TAR In the flesh.

 

Don't forget that Rand enters TAR in the flesh to hunt Ishamael at the end of tDR. I think Brandon said 4-6 mainly to keep us guessing, and possibly also to point out other occurrences of in-the-flesh TAR entry. I think, however, that the first time it happens is in tDR.

 

 

Nynaeve is also warned by Birgete in TaR[when she entered from Tanchico after Elayne got plaster] and went to Rhuedean and saw the "man" walking along the edge of the fog and trying to peer in.Not entering,[maybe he could'nt].She tells her to leave before she is seen because he will kill her.Then shoots an arrow at her.

[thewalrus777]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

 

I imagine the male a'dam is what she was referring to. Considering that before the taint was cleansed, leashing a male channeler eventually took the leash holders into madness as well. The results from that happening could be construed as a major form of evil.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

 

I imagine the male a'dam is what she was referring to. Considering that before the taint was cleansed, leashing a male channeler eventually took the leash holders into madness as well. The results from that happening could be construed as a major form of evil.

That doesn't really fit with "Evil worse then men can make". Since it's man made.

[thewalrus777]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

 

That doesn't really fit with "Evil worse then men can make". Since it's mad made.

 

I imagine the male a'dam is what she was referring to. Considering that before the taint was cleansed, leashing a male channeler eventually took the leash holders into madness as well. The results from that happening could be construed as a major form of evil.

 

this is true as well. It makes you wonder what the hell is in Tanchico, that had Amys terrified like that.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Something I noticed on a re-read. When Egwene firsts meets Amys in TAR, Amys says that there is an evil in Tenchico worse than men can make. Amys clearly meant it as in men (humanity), but even literally both Black Ajah and Moghedian were both made by men (in the biological reproductive sense), and Black Ajah was created by Ishamael, a man.

 

So what's the go? Is Amys being overly dramatic or is there some other evil in Tenchico?

Probably the "other" evil is the male a'dam collar/braclet that had been noticed but overlooked when they were in TaR[Nynaeve/Egwen] in the Panarchs Palace.

 

That doesn't really fit with "Evil worse then men can make". Since it's mad made.

 

I imagine the male a'dam is what she was referring to. Considering that before the taint was cleansed, leashing a male channeler eventually took the leash holders into madness as well. The results from that happening could be construed as a major form of evil.

 

this is true as well. It makes you wonder what the hell is in Tanchico, that had Amys terrified like that.

 

Or like Luckers said, which is a possibility, she was just being over-dramatic.

[aunt_pol]

 

Def somethin in that.

RJ specifically set up the intro to Amys with her hunting wild boar or some such in TAR. He clearly meant Egwene (and us) to see her as tough stuff. It doesn't seem too far of a stretch to take stuff she says, seriously, as well.

And I do believe she meant in the sense of humanity rather than gender.

I'd forgotten all about that, but the problem is, what the hell use is Tanchico? It's nowhere near the Bore...

Does that mean the DO had a personal (metaphysically speaking, I guess) hand in the crafting of the male collar? Would tick the boxes...

 

Not bigger than 'oo killed 'oo, though...

[Ashaman Kovan]

And I do believe she meant in the sense of humanity rather than gender.

 

I don't think anyone is disputing that fact.

[makaveli422]

I think she was being dramatic and wanted Egwene to heed them. If she was being literal, the only evil worse than men can make that I can think of is the DO or Mashadar/Shadar Logoth. Fain at the time was in Amador iirc or on his way to TV. So that would leave the sad bracelets or the DF that they were hunting. And the only reason the bracelets were there is because they are made of heartstone and they are old so they put them in the museum with the rest of the old stuff. Plus at the time there was a seal there too and that when it was found radiated evil. So that could be it but I don't think so. I think she wanted to make sure that Egwene was going to be careful so that she could survive and make it to the waste.   

[Luckers]

I think she was being dramatic and wanted Egwene to heed them. If she was being literal, the only evil worse than men can make that I can think of is the DO or Mashadar/Shadar Logoth. Fain at the time was in Amador iirc or on his way to TV. So that would leave the sad bracelets or the DF that they were hunting. And the only reason the bracelets were there is because they are made of heartstone and they are old so they put them in the museum with the rest of the old stuff. Plus at the time there was a seal there too and that when it was found radiated evil. So that could be it but I don't think so. I think she wanted to make sure that Egwene was going to be careful so that she could survive and make it to the waste.   

 

Brandon stated that there were other evils in the world than the Shadow.

 

Matt: ...before [Mordeth] went to the King and became the counselor, Mordeth was this guy that went around searching for Power?

 

Brandon: Yeah, he wanted to defeat the Dark One and he felt that he could find other ways to do it […] He originally was good. He did not…he wasn’t this terrible person to begin with but he was looking to defeat the Dark One, to find a way to defeat the Shadow. And he looked into a lot of things he shouldn’t have looked into. There are evils that are not necessarily directly related to the Dark One, though everything evil kind of has…just as there are goods that are not related necessarily to the One Power…we are talking much as Perrin runs with wolves. This is a thing older than…there are other evils things that are old in a similar way…

 

Matt: ...is the assumption then that he found one of these?

 

Brandon: He did.

 

Matt: He found one or multiple?

 

Brandon: He found many things of darkness. There is one in specific that is driving him but he knew too much. He found things he should not have gotten into and that is what turned him into…when he got there he was already corrupt. He still thought he was doing a good work. He still thought we are going to raise this Kingdom up and it is going to become this bastion against the Shadow, but he was already by then corrupted.

[Random Man]

IIRC, one source of Power Mordeth looked into were the Finns (don't remember where or the exact wording of how this was confirmed, but it was brought up as one of the ancient things he at least investigated). Birgitte describes the Finns as so alien that they might as well be evil.

 

Question: Do the Finns care if the DO breaks free? There's nothing to indicate they do, except for questions touching the Shadow being dangerous for reasons only known to themselves. We don't even understand the nature of their existence within/without the Pattern, and the nature of things on the other side of the doors suggest that the mundane laws of the world of the Wheel don't apply (similar to the Waygates). Are they even a part of the pattern? Whereas Mashandar/DO are as matter and anti-matter, what may be the relationship between Finns and DO?

[Luckers]

IIRC, one source of Power Mordeth looked into were the Finns (don't remember where or the exact wording of how this was confirmed, but it was brought up as one of the ancient things he at least investigated). Birgitte describes the Finns as so alien that they might as well be evil.

 

No, Matt from Theoryland added an addendum to the above interview saying he'd wished he'd asked in the Finn's were one of the sources of power Mordeth interviewed, but that has not been addressed by Team Jordan.

 

Question: Do the Finns care if the DO breaks free? There's nothing to indicate they do, except for questions touching the Shadow being dangerous for reasons only known to themselves. We don't even understand the nature of their existence within/without the Pattern, and the nature of things on the other side of the doors suggest that the mundane laws of the world of the Wheel don't apply (similar to the Waygates). Are they even a part of the pattern? Whereas Mashandar/DO are as matter and anti-matter, what may be the relationship between Finns and DO?

 

They are threads in the Pattern, and their world is woven into it--a part of the Age Lace, a parallel universe much like the Ogier homeworld. If the Wheel falls they loose just as much as anyone else--and we know they have a sense of self-preservation.

 

They may be burying their heads, or fighting in some way so alien as to seem not, to us, or even be resigned to the fact that the Dark One may win, but they are in the game as much as anyone.

[Netizen]

What about Rand's women? He has 3 women after him, and they all accept it willingly. It's not a normal situation in Randland, other than some Aiel having more than one wife. But even though only one of Rands ladies is Aiel, they are all Ok with it.

 

It's odd, but not particularly referred to as odd. Maybe there's a reason for the 3 which will become apparent later. The Wheel must have woven their threads together for it's own purpose - are there coincidences when the wheel weaves? It's also odd that WE haven't discussed the hell out of it! It's obviously so minor to us that it passes notice.

[Plagueis]

They are threads in the Pattern, and their world is woven into it--a part of the Age Lace, a parallel universe much like the Ogier homeworld.

 

Maybe I missed it, but I never read about the Ogier homeworld (I assumed they were from the same world as Rand and co.). Is there a thread or link that I could get in regards to this?

 

Thanks in advance and sorry for being a bit behind.