Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[randfandom]

Hopefully.  I honestly think what she has to teach the Asha'man and Rand is that yes, they have to deal with the Aes Sedai -- and yes, they can be honorable even if you don't like them.  But she has to learn things too.

 

I think she will teach Rand and the Ashaman they have to trust and make themselves vulnerable to be truly strong. Cadsuane has been experimenting with the female a'dam by getting collared and trying to overcome it. It requires a lot of trust in the women with her but it's necessary to defeat it. Rand absolutely refuses when she asks to have Ashaman practice same with the male a'dam. Cadsuane is spot on here, and Rand needs to acknowledge that.

 

Honestly, I absolutely adored that whole scene.  Tam calling her a bully, Min going 'this is what we get for trying to MAKE HIM do what we want' and so forth.  Really put out in the open what I've thought for a long time.

 

I did find it interesting (I hope this is the right area for it) how Cadsuane seemed to start getting annoyed with her hanger-ons like Merise, and their behavior in general.  Hopefully that's not a plot by her.  Maybe she'll turn around.

 

Personally I admire Cadsuane - fearless, brilliant planner, adapts to circumstances quickly, unafraid of changes. Yes, she is arrogant and I loved Tam's putdown and also when Rand banned her after the Semirhage incident, but I also admired how she immediately adapts and keeps focused on her ultimate goal.

 

As for her hangers on - I noticed how similar her treatment of Nynaeve was to the Wise Ones handling of Aviendha - I think Cadsuane views Nynaeve as her spiritual heir and it is why she is hard on Nynaeve - she wis training her to become the leader of the Aes Sedai with Rand when she is gone.

 

[Fulseman]

I had a question about Nynaeve's new healing.  In the previous books, don't we have a forsaken refure to the AS healing as a crude battleground version of healing?  Then when Moraine is going to heal Rand the "old" way, she asked him to embrace the source.  She explains the healing takes less out of the body that way.

 

When Nynaeve used her new healing on the kid that is coughing, she makes a point to say he will need food.  She says that she will follow up on the parents to make sure they won't sell the extra food she is going to arrange.

 

So my question is, if the new healing still drains the body and requires lots of food, why is it better than the old healing.  Was this something over looked?  Does the new healing infact require power from the body or not.

[striker]

Well think about it, what happens to you when you get sick?  For most ppl when they get sick one of the symptoms is that they have a lack of appetite, when you eat less your body doesn't get the nutrients that it needs to operate at 100% efficiency.  She might have just said that because the kid needs to get the nutrients just to be healthy and not get infected with another illness.

[ohaitharguiz]

this time she displayed not skill at all. No insight. It's not Cadsuane, it's not how she would react to Rand grown suddenly difficult and dangerous. At the very least old Cadsuane would have stopped, and chosen to monitor him before proceeding.

 

fair assessment, i got the feeling too, initially, but maybe we are supposed to get the impression that she is losing it a bit?

 

That's the problem overall with Cadsuane. Rand is different. Min is different. Aviendha and Nynaeve are different. I didn't have problems with them, because there were reasons they were evolving. We saw these reasons--or at the very least we see the progression. But Cadsuane--nothing happened to evoke this change. She'd had hundreds of years success behind her, and suddenly, with no reason, went dumb as a doorpost in dealing with Rand.

 

That's perhaps why the Tam scene doesn't bother me--in that scene she'd been through the event with Rand, and everything hung on the balance. She had reason to break with her normal methods. But the Rand/Semirhage scene... she just failed. It was like she turned her back on the methodology she'd employed with great success for over two hundred years for no purpose.

 

BS used Cadsuane as the catalyst in that scene. I get why--he needed to show Rand's new personality state, and needed a break between Rand and Cadsuane. But instead of using her character to bring it about, he dumbed her down so it could happen.

 

That may be where RJ's detailed plot line is hampering him. He's trying to hard to get things were they need to be, and not paying enough attention that how they get there is important. Cadsuane should never have reacted to Rand in the way she did. At the very least she shouldn't have continued arguing defensively when he snapped at her. That's not Cadsuane in the slightest. The only reason she did seems to be that she needed to in order for Rand to banish her.

 

That could have been achieved in other ways. And the core of this failure is that he has missed the subtleties that ground and inform every action she takes. Her insight and her adaptive responses. Instead he just went 'she belligerant about getting what she wants, even though she is right to seek it'.

 

You are acting like Cadsuane can do no wrong.

[coteaz]

The new healing is less crude, doesn't hurt, and probably heals to a greater degree.

[Jemlin]

I had a question about Nynaeve's new healing.  In the previous books, don't we have a forsaken refure to the AS healing as a crude battleground version of healing?  Then when Moraine is going to heal Rand the "old" way, she asked him to embrace the source.  She explains the healing takes less out of the body that way.

 

When Nynaeve used her new healing on the kid that is coughing, she makes a point to say he will need food.  She says that she will follow up on the parents to make sure they won't sell the extra food she is going to arrange.

 

So my question is, if the new healing still drains the body and requires lots of food, why is it better than the old healing.  Was this something over looked?  Does the new healing infact require power from the body or not.

 

Nyneave's healing probably still requires a certain amount of food and nurishment that would be *normal* for someone recovering.  Although most of the strength of the healing comes from the One Power in her new weave, a person will still have some natural stamina to recover.  In the instance of the kid, I think her requirement for food was to doubly make sure the parents did not neglect him.

 

 

[Luckers]

You are acting like Cadsuane can do no wrong.

 

No. Cadsuane can do wrong, and does. I think Tam was absolutely right to call her out on it. My problem was in the way she was brought to do wrong. She got dumbed down so Tam could take her, and that was weak. Honestly I think it's the people who hate her who were robbed most by this. Think of how much better it would have been if she hadn't been acting stupid and Tam STILL took her down.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

The thing is, she's always acted stupidly.

 

She wasn't dumbed down at all for that scene.  She just did more of what she's been doing all along.

 

The only change is that both Tam and Min saw her for what she really is, an arrogant, unthinking bully.

[Luckers]

All I can give you, Bob, is what I gave you before. I'd always argued against such arguments, but your right--in tGS she is everything you say of her.

[Bob T Dwarf]

All I can give you, Bob, is what I gave you before. I'd always argued against such arguments, but your right--in tGS she is everything you say of her.

 

I know, Luckers, and I'm probably as sad about that as you are.  I wanted her to be the no-nonsense maiden aunt who knew Rand was capable of more than he realized, and encouraged him to grow even if he fumbled it the first few times.  She just never was written that way.

[WWWwombat]

I don't know I kinda agree with Luckers.  I liked Cadsuane and I found her using the OP on Tam to be out of character.

[dyskrasia]

One thing that slightly bothered me about Min's POV after the Domination Band scene was that she revealed that the feelings through the bond changed, but it isn't said anywhere how she really felt about Rand nearly choking her to death. That would be a big thing to be thinking about, especially when she kept going around him. It irked that in the following scenes between them there wasn't any mention of what happened, not Rand sending her away, telling her "see, that's why I can't have you near me", or her shying in fear of him, or even reprimanding him as she usually does (calling him a sheepherder). Somehow that makes me think she knew something of the sort would happen and she was resigned for it to happen, because he would need her.

[coteaz]

She makes mentioned that she wants to be his last line of defense, and how well that had actually worked, rand did try and send her away but she gave him a 'tongue-lashing'. And she knew it was semi doing the choking not him.

[striker]

One thing that slightly bothered me about Min's POV after the Domination Band scene was that she revealed that the feelings through the bond changed, but it isn't said anywhere how she really felt about Rand nearly choking her to death. That would be a big thing to be thinking about, especially when she kept going around him. It irked that in the following scenes between them there wasn't any mention of what happened, not Rand sending her away, telling her "see, that's why I can't have you near me", or her shying in fear of him, or even reprimanding him as she usually does (calling him a sheepherder). Somehow that makes me think she knew something of the sort would happen and she was resigned for it to happen, because he would need her.

 

Through the bond she would have felt that trauma that Rand was feeling because of the fact that Semi was forcing him to choke her, then later she said that she knew it was semi that was actually choking her not rand and in the same thought she said that she thought she would be his last line of defense and that it didn't work out near as well as she thought it would.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Min is the first of those around Rand to wake up, smell the coffee, and realize how much she's been deluding herself about everything.

 

Their semi-estrangement feels right.  Rand is feeling guilty because he thinks he should have been able to stop what Semirhage did sooner and hurt Min less.  She's feeling guilty because it just dawned on her that he lost his hand protecting her, which he never would have had to do if she hadn't foolishly insisted on going to that meeting. 

 

Things are going to be awkward between them for awhile.

[FanoLan]

She makes mentioned that she wants to be his last line of defense, and how well that had actually worked, rand did try and send her away but she gave him a 'tongue-lashing'. And she knew it was semi doing the choking not him.

 

 After Semi's escape, Min finally realizes that she is a potential liability to Rand rather than an effective last line of defense.  She then limits how often she accompanies him after the Semi encounter  (Tuon).  The tongue lashing(s) occurred in the past, now she accepts it when Rand keeps her away.  Actually, she wonders to herself whether Rand has come to the same conclusion regarding her vulnerability and if that is why he has changed how he looks at her (we of course know better).   From Min's POV we get the following:

 

And she'd begun to think of herself as a last defense for Rand ... In fact she'd been a hindrance, a tool for Semirhage to use against him ... She'd been indignant when Rand had suggested sending her away, giving him a tongue-lashing for even suggesting it. Send her away!  To keep her safe?  That was foolishness!  ... So she had thought.  Now she saw that he had been right.  ... So she studied and tried to stay out of his way. ... He looked at her differently now.  When those eyes of his studied her, did they see only a liability?

 all Ch. 37 p.563

 

 Contrary to some opinions expressed here, I think Min's accompaniment of Nyn to join forces with Cads is perfectly within character considering Rand's descent.  It sparked me to consider how far gone Rand has become when even Min feels the need to go to someone for help - particularly Cads when her treatment of Min has been less than respectful in the past.  Rather than a plot contrivance or mistreatment by BS, I view Min's choice to go to Cads along with Nyn as a perfectly reasonable response considering the preceding triggering events: Rand's worsening withdrawal from her (wouldn't even put his arm around her) and his failure to care about destroying the people in Graendal's stronghold.

 

Also, we see Min reflect that although help (and therefore collaboration) was needed for keeping Rand as sane as possible, she would also be keeping an eye on Cads/Sorilea/Nyn et al.

 

Min followed (Nyn that is). 'Handle' Rand?  That was another problem ... And so Min followed the Aes Sedai out of the mansion ... Whatever the plan, someone would need to watch out for Rand ... It was her job to get him to that Last Battle alive and sane, with his soul in one piece.  Somehow.

 

During the Graendal assassination, Min does consider how she knew Semi was behind the throat ringing and that she feared Rand during the stronghold demolition but not at all during the Domination Band dance.

 

When he'd been close to killing her with his own hand, she hadn't feared him.  But then, she'd know that it wasn't Rand hurting her but Semirhage.  But this Rand - hand aflame, eyes so intent yet so dispassionate - terrified her.

 Ch. 37, pp 573-74

[coteaz]

Yeah, and now she has stood up to cadsuane telling her that she cant make him do anything, instead they need to work with him to accomplish his goals.

[FanoLan]

I don't know I kinda agree with Luckers.  I liked Cadsuane and I found her using the OP on Tam to be out of character.

 

Well, not completely out of character as Cads has used the OP to switch Rand, paddle Min to get info and intimidate other AS.  To me, the scene effectively portrays the culmination of Cad's frustration (prob not strong enough of a word) - not due to the action itself, but because it was done in reaction to Tam rather than proactively in order to help reach her goal.  

 

IMO, Cads has actually been the closest in aligning her goals to defeat the DO of all characters in the book.  Her willingness to set aside custom, ignore the White Tower split, and overlook any and all things that distract from her goal of keeping the Dragon Reborn human merits immense respect as I see things.  Some folks disagree with her methods and therefore castigate her character.  To me, her efforts to keep a "legendary" persona have nothing to do with her ego and everything to do with increasing her influence over AS through the decades - in order to best position herself to help the Dragon Reborn save humankind at the Last Battle.

 

Her mistake - from a reader's perspective - is failing to get to know and  understand Rand al'Thor - not just that which would help the Dragon Reborn.  We have seen through the convos about peace with the Seanchan and the plan to cleanse saidin that Cads doesn't want to tell the DR what to do, but to provide counsel.  We know that Cads is right about laughter and tears and that Rand is heading down the wrong path of iron, steel cuendillar.  Perhaps now that Rand has found laughter, and Min has called out Cads for having plans for the DR rather than helping Rand, we'll get to see a more healthy relationship between Rand and Cads.

[coteaz]

Until moiraine shows up that is.

[The Lost One]

I am not sure if this is the right place for this or if it is being discussed elsewhere (if so please let me know).

 

Regarding Cadsuane - did anyone else find it suspicious that Cads shows the Domination Band to the Wise Ones - shortly after, the incident with Semi happens - and during that time Cads is out visiting the Wise Ones in their tents?  I think Cads even says something like "of all the nights to be out visiting the Wise Ones".

 

This made be very suspicious of the Wise Ones - or maybe one of them.  

 

Again, if this is the wrong place for this and I need to move it, just let me know.  

 

***** I found the discussion of this on the Aiel Page ******

 

 

[The Lost One]

I was just doing a re-read and had some questions.

 

It is at the part where one of the sisters is questioning Semi and Cads states she is listening in, but she used the trick of inverting her weaves, so the sister inside could not tell she was listening....however she then states the sisters outside the room could see what she was doing, but they did not say anything. 

 

I thought if you inverted your weaves, they could not be seen?  Did I misunderstand this?

 

Also, then when Semi drops the tray, she states she immediately embraces the source - that confused me again - shouldn't she already have been embracing the source to do the listening in the first place?

 

Can someone clarify for me?

 

 

[Eleint]

Inverting is hiding the weave after it's been woven.  It's /reversing/ that lets you totally hide your weaves so the person can't see what you're weaving.  That was introduced in Winter's Heart, and isn't mentioned before.  I would guess Reversing is an advanced form of Inverting, but who knows?

[Tam of the Two Rivers]

I had a question about Nynaeve's new healing.  In the previous books, don't we have a forsaken refure to the AS healing as a crude battleground version of healing?  Then when Moraine is going to heal Rand the "old" way, she asked him to embrace the source.  She explains the healing takes less out of the body that way.

 

When Nynaeve used her new healing on the kid that is coughing, she makes a point to say he will need food.  She says that she will follow up on the parents to make sure they won't sell the extra food she is going to arrange.

 

So my question is, if the new healing still drains the body and requires lots of food, why is it better than the old healing.  Was this something over looked?  Does the new healing infact require power from the body or not.

 

I think this may be a mistake.  I also did not think the "new" healing drained the healed as much, or it could just be good commone sense.  Someone is getting over being ill they should eat to keep up thier strength

[Muad Cheade]

It might have to do with the fact that Nynaeve couldn't completely Heal the child due to his young age and/or the fact that he had been sick for a long time (Remember when the Aes Sedai in Cairhien Healed Lord Dobraine after the assassins attacked him, she saved his life yet he wasn't completely the same. He would have shortness of breathe when he exerted himself among other things.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It might have to do with the fact that Nynaeve couldn't completely Heal the child due to his young age and/or the fact that he had been sick for a long time (Remember when the Aes Sedai in Cairhien Healed Lord Dobraine after the assassins attacked him, she saved his life yet he wasn't completely the same. He would have shortness of breathe when he exerted himself among other things.

 

She had to pull her punch.  He was so badly injured that if she'd tried healing him completely it would have killed him.