Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min. (Full Book Spoilers)

[Luckers]

Go Team Touchy-Feely! Discuss.

[anotherfingolfin]

i really hope their eminent role is at an end, considering he has learned to laugh and cry. Though doesn't Cads have something to teach the Asha'man too? Maybe she will play a pivotal role in the retaking (so to speak) of the Black Tower.

Min seemed to truly understand Rand (about how he- like most Real World folks- does not like to be prodded and forced). Nyn seems to finally understand that he is much more aware and capable than she had been giving him credit for. Cads was knocked down a peg by Tam, and if she has any respectability, she will take it to heart. Here's hoping that faction becomes much less insufferable now.

[Durinax]

did anyone find it hilarious how Caddy was trying to teach rand humility and human characteristics while trying to make herself seem bigger than life?

[Leezus]

did anyone find it hilarious how Caddy was trying to teach rand humility and human characteristics while trying to make herself seem bigger than life?

 

Oh yes. She's the model Aes Sedai. It was beautiful when Tam gave her the lesson that  I think all of the Aes Sedai need to learn. How the first Oath doesn't pain them with Irony every time they say their own name is beyond me.

[Rufae]

did anyone find it hilarious how Caddy was trying to teach rand humility and human characteristics while trying to make herself seem bigger than life?

 

Or that when Tam confronted her about Rand, her first reaction was to try an intimidate Tam with the OP. I love Tam's smack down to her about it too. Maybe Cads has something to learn as well as Rand?

[wotjunkie]

i have a feeling cadsuane has more humble pie to eat yet, served up by moiraine

[Eleint]

Hopefully.  I honestly think what she has to teach the Asha'man and Rand is that yes, they have to deal with the Aes Sedai -- and yes, they can be honorable even if you don't like them.  But she has to learn things too.

 

Honestly, I absolutely adored that whole scene.  Tam calling her a bully, Min going 'this is what we get for trying to MAKE HIM do what we want' and so forth.  Really put out in the open what I've thought for a long time.

 

I did find it interesting (I hope this is the right area for it) how Cadsuane seemed to start getting annoyed with her hanger-ons like Merise, and their behavior in general.  Hopefully that's not a plot by her.  Maybe she'll turn around.

 

I do hope Moiraine gives her what for, though.

[karehiro]

i really hope their eminent role is at an end, considering he has learned to laugh and cry.

 

I couldn't disagree more and I hope their role is increased in the coming books, especially Nynaeve's.  To me, Min is far preferable to Elayne or Aviendha and is already far more relevant to Rand's plotline.  And I don't really consider Cadsuane the same as the other Aes Sedai, maybe because she actually seems like she's genuinely looking out for Rand's well-being, in her own way.  She's very much needed and has more than proved herself to Rand (for one thing he'd be dead if it weren't for her after he got stabbed by Fain's dagger).

 

I've said this in the other threads multiple times but Nynaeve has really become one of my favorite characters, and I'm honestly excited whenever her POV comes up.  She only became more awesome this book, from calling out Rand on him trying to use Lan in a suicide mission, to seeing his perspective on the necessity of hardness, to having the skill to unravel the greatest Compulsion user's weave, to speaking up for Mat against Tuon, she's really kept her core character and has developed beautifully.  I was gratified when even Dark Rand recognized that he could trust her and he respected her cause she was one of the very few who cared about him for his own sake, and not for being the Dragon.  I really hope for her sake (and ours) that Lan isn't the one she'll be standing over in that viewing.  It would plainly suck if he died.

 

Another thing I've said before, but I think RJ/Sanderson planned for Nynaeve to become the greatest channeler of the Third Age next to Rand.  Just think about it: trained by Moghedian, healed severing, arguably the greatest healer of the Third Age, only female wielder of the Choedan Kal, only female to link with the Dragon Reborn and helped cleanse saidin, trained by Rand (!) in learning how to detect and unravel Compulsion (and probably use it too), as well as learning his gateway trick.  And since she did use the Choedan Kal, her potential should have been forced to the utmost maximum in terms of strength.  Honestly I don't see any other channeler really having that type of pedigree coming out of the Third Age, not including Rand.

[Luckers]

I'm not sure Brandon got Cadsuane exactly. The incident with Tam for instance--I've no problem with Cadsuane getting told off, but her using the Power like that just doesn't fit her previous reactions. When someone confronts Cadsuane she has never responded in kind before--She does respond, sometimes with heat, but even the expression of that heat is dispassionate. A choice. Her use of the power against Tam just doesn't fit her nature.

 

Maybe her failure with Rand threw her more than she showed--yet still, it felt off. Like Brandon was forcing a situation in which Tam could tell her off as opposed to setting up a situation in which Tam and Cadsuane's natures lead to him successfully telling her off. Tam calls her a bully--but the thing is you can bully without being a bully. Doesn't necessarily make it better, but its true. In the earlier books that was Cadsuane, a woman who bullied. In this book, she is just a bully.

 

It's a subtle distinction, but for me it was that distinction--that Cadsuane only bullied, or acted high-handed with reason and for a purpose--that made her distinct from other Aes Sedai.

 

One of the posters above said that she was the model Aes Sedai, and in this book she was. In other books she dominated because she was capable of it, and had a reason that required it, and therefore as unpleasent as it may be, had a right to it. In this book it was like she was dominating simply because she thought she should.

 

It's sad. I've spent years defending Cadsuane to posters, because of the subtleties behind her high-handedness, but in this book those subtleties were absent, and she was everything that people characterized her to be, and more.

 

 

[BlastOff]

Hi, first time poster here.

 

I've been a fan of the series since '94 and Min's part at the end was one of my favorites in the series. It was finally someone saying "Hey, maybe he just needs advice and not hidden agendas and manipulation!" Moiraine realized that and actually began to make progress with Rand before her death. It's too bad it took so long for everyone else to catch on and realize maybe their way wasn't the best way and that the Dragon Reborn himself might know what he's doing sometimes.

[Rufae]

Luckers>> While I agree with Cadsuane being off. I also think several characters were a little "out of character" such as Aviendha, Mat, Egwene, Tuon.... but I think that is to be expected since there was a change in author. Brandon (as much as a fanboy he is) is not Robert Jordan and as such cannot possibly give them the exact same responses/actions/thoughts. I read it with that understanding and tried to read deeper to get the gist of the scene and how I think RJ meant it to go.

[clu7ch]

Moiraine will definitely have to either teach caddy a lesson or at the very least sympathize with her. I think at this point either is an option.

[Eleint]

See, I thought Cadsuane was fine -- and actually less of an evil *bleep* than before.  She showed some signs of empathy.  Also remember that Cadsuane -has- bullied people before.  Yes, not with the Power but she has.  I don't see her actions there as different than usual for her.

[ohaitharguiz]

I hope Moiraine bitch slaps Cadsuane into next week.

[Crossroad]

I hope Moiraine bitch slaps Cadsuane into next week.

 

yes I'm up for a good ole cat fight, Nynaeve is just a smaller version of Cadsuane so I think she should get a slap as well.  As for Min wonder why she didn't go with Rand when he went met Tuon.  I don't know why Rand left her behind.

 

I'm not much of a fan of any of the girls Elayne, Ewg. Nynaeve, Min or Cadsuane they all to bossy for my liking especially around Rand.  Faile a bossy cow as well and we all know Tuon is a bossy boots too.

[anotherfingolfin]

i really hope their eminent role is at an end, considering he has learned to laugh and cry.

 

I couldn't disagree more and I hope their role is increased in the coming books, especially Nynaeve's.  To me, Min is far preferable to Elayne or Aviendha and is already far more relevant to Rand's plotline.  And I don't really consider Cadsuane the same as the other Aes Sedai, maybe because she actually seems like she's genuinely looking out for Rand's well-being, in her own way.  She's very much needed and has more than proved herself to Rand (for one thing he'd be dead if it weren't for her after he got stabbed by Fain's dagger).

 

I've said this in the other threads multiple times but Nynaeve has really become one of my favorite characters, and I'm honestly excited whenever her POV comes up.  She only became more awesome this book, from calling out Rand on him trying to use Lan in a suicide mission, to seeing his perspective on the necessity of hardness, to having the skill to unravel the greatest Compulsion user's weave, to speaking up for Mat against Tuon, she's really kept her core character and has developed beautifully.  I was gratified when even Dark Rand recognized that he could trust her and he respected her cause she was one of the very few who cared about him for his own sake, and not for being the Dragon.  I really hope for her sake (and ours) that Lan isn't the one she'll be standing over in that viewing.  It would plainly suck if he died.

 

Another thing I've said before, but I think RJ/Sanderson planned for Nynaeve to become the greatest channeler of the Third Age next to Rand.  Just think about it: trained by Moghedian, healed severing, arguably the greatest healer of the Third Age, only female wielder of the Choedan Kal, only female to link with the Dragon Reborn and helped cleanse saidin, trained by Rand (!) in learning how to detect and unravel Compulsion (and probably use it too), as well as learning his gateway trick.  And since she did use the Choedan Kal, her potential should have been forced to the utmost maximum in terms of strength.  Honestly I don't see any other channeler really having that type of pedigree coming out of the Third Age, not including Rand.

 

ok, my apologies for the poor expression of my thoughts. i meant them as a faction, and Cads in particular. I really was hoping to see more from Nyn myself in this book. particularly after the scene in KoD with her rousing the Malkieri (sic?), i like her a lot more than i used to. I have always liked the fact that her achievements with the power (IMHO) have been more significant than those of Egwene and Elayne. when she (finally) realised that rand isn't a clueless dolt, i made peace with that character.

also, on the point of Lan. Lan is awesome, i will be very upset if he dies. and Nyn's reaction to Rands callousness is to be expected. that said, it wasn't Rand who sent Lan off on a assumed suicide mission. If Lan gets left out of the greater battle zone, it isn't Rands fault. If (and i am talking hypothetically here), Rand's plan to bypass most of the blight and strike deep is what is needed, then he can't be expected to change all that because Lan decided to be somewhere else. Yes, include him and inform him, but not alter his plans to aid Lan, if those forces are more needed elsewhere.

 

It could be argued that BS was off with Cads in this book. But assuming that she is the way her character was intended to progress, i like her even less than i did before. after KoD i had come to the conclusion that she was like a wise an well meaning older aunt who truly did what was best, even though in a crappy an humiliating manner, and you respect her even if you don't like her. after this book though, i found her to be a lot more self-centered and arrogant (as opposed to just prideful and a little domineering). even rand feels the difference- as he acknowledges the difference between Nyn's bossiness and Cads'.

 

 

[wotjunkie]

I'm not sure Brandon got Cadsuane exactly. The incident with Tam for instance--I've no problem with Cadsuane getting told off, but her using the Power like that just doesn't fit her previous reactions. When someone confronts Cadsuane she has never responded in kind before--She does respond, sometimes with heat, but even the expression of that heat is dispassionate. A choice. Her use of the power against Tam just doesn't fit her nature.

 

Maybe her failure with Rand threw her more than she showed--yet still, it felt off. Like Brandon was forcing a situation in which Tam could tell her off as opposed to setting up a situation in which Tam and Cadsuane's natures lead to him successfully telling her off. Tam calls her a bully--but the thing is you can bully without being a bully. Doesn't necessarily make it better, but its true. In the earlier books that was Cadsuane, a woman who bullied. In this book, she is just a bully.

 

It's a subtle distinction, but for me it was that distinction--that Cadsuane only bullied, or acted high-handed with reason and for a purpose--that made her distinct from other Aes Sedai.

 

One of the posters above said that she was the model Aes Sedai, and in this book she was. In other books she dominated because she was capable of it, and had a reason that required it, and therefore as unpleasent as it may be, had a right to it. In this book it was like she was dominating simply because she thought she should.

 

It's sad. I've spent years defending Cadsuane to posters, because of the subtleties behind her high-handedness, but in this book those subtleties were absent, and she was everything that people characterized her to be, and more.

 

its funny, after reading the books more times than i can remember, ive always had a picture of them in my head now that i finally have the audio books and listening to them now my perception of many characters are forced to change even the way I've pronounced names and items like a'dam.

 

to me Caddy has always been a bully, using the power to illustrate her point isn't something new (switching rand), she always pushes just far enough to be a bully but not so far as to get her self into trouble, her using the power on Tam didn't seem out of character she did it because she could and because Tam couldn't channel to stop her. She didn't hurt Tam i but i don't think she got the reaction of fear and awe she expected. She has yet to learn that she has no control over events (something moiraine learned quickly) her role is to try to soften the blows to the the world and damage control until she learns this her life will be very frustrating.

[Crossroad]

ts funny, after reading the books more times than i can remember, ive always had a picture of them in my head now that i finally have the audio books and listening to them now my perception of many characters are forced to change even the way I've pronounced names and items like a'dam.

 

to me Caddy has always been a bully, using the power to illustrate her point isn't something new (switching rand), she always pushes just far enough to be a bully but not so far as to get her self into trouble, her using the power on Tam didn't seem out of character she did it because she could and because Tam couldn't channel to stop her. She didn't hurt Tam i but i don't think she got the reaction of fear and awe she expected. She has yet to learn that she has no control over events (something moiraine learned quickly) her role is to try to soften the blows to the the world and damage control until she learns this her life will be very frustrating.

 

Oh so True.

 

I loved the Audio's and have listen to the latest, couldn't see changes that everyone else seem to see.  But each to his own I suppose.

 

[Mr Ares]

She showed some signs of empathy.

She did in the past. She intentionally kept a lot hidden - in ACoS, after Fain attacks Rand, we see her with an unconcious Rand and she says she won't hurt him more than she must. She recognises what she has to do, and is willing to do it, but she knows it won't always be very nice.

Also remember that Cadsuane -has- bullied people before.

As Luckers said: "In the earlier books that was Cadsuane, a woman who bullied. In this book, she is just a bully." In the past, she bullied when she had to, but not when she didn't.

 

after KoD i had come to the conclusion that she was like a wise an well meaning older aunt who truly did what was best, even though in a crappy an humiliating manner, and you respect her even if you don't like her.

Considering RJ described her as like a "tough maiden aunt", I think that's exactly how she was supposed to come across.

 

to me Caddy has always been a bully, using the power to illustrate her point isn't something new (switching rand)

The way she presented herself towards Rand was deliberate. She was trying to provoke him. But how she treats Rand isn't how she treats everyone. In Far Madding, when she has to take down the First Counsel, she does so, but she is not violent, she takes no joy in it. She simply needs to rescue Rand, and this is the only way. She tries to do it another way. So her using the OP on Tam like that is a bit out of character.

[IoCaster]

I really wish that Semi could have gotten a chance to torture and kill off Cadsuane before Rand took her out. I hate that character so much. She sucks all of the fun and joy out of the series for me whenever she appears. Please Brandon kill this POS character off. Preferably in the first paragraph of the prologue for ToM. 

[Lambada]

I really wish that Semi could have gotten a chance to torture and kill off Cadsuane before Rand took her out. I hate that character so much. She sucks all of the fun and joy out of the series for me whenever she appears. Please Brandon kill this POS character off. Preferably in the first paragraph of the prologue for ToM. 

 

The ironic thing there is that if Semi had done that, then she couldn't teach the Ashamen anything, like she must. So if Semi had done that she would have ensured at least a draw for the DO, and ruled out any possibility of the Light winning.

[IoCaster]

 

 

The ironic thing there is that if Semi had done that, then she couldn't teach the Ashamen anything, like she must. So if Semi had done that she would have ensured at least a draw for the DO, and ruled out any possibility of the Light winning.

 

 

 

Depends on what the lesson is. If she is meant to teach them that being an insufferable, arrogant, despicable and hateful hag is a common failing of the vast majority of Aes Sedai, then it would fit the plot seamlessly and her work is done. Regardless, at this point I don't really care. I just want her gone. When Semi was describing her experiments with replacing a victims blood with some other fluid and the excruciating agony and death that resulted, I was hoping that was going to be Caddys fate. What a missed opportunity.

 

My problem with the series is that I'm just kind of going through the motions now. I lost interest and took a break from the series after the publication of tPoD. I didn't really pick it back up until KoD, hoping that it was finally drawing to a close. Unfortunately, the untimely and tragic death of RJ has relegated the WoT into a second tier saga. Most of the main characters in tGS felt off to me. I have invested enough time and money in the series to want to see the ending, but it's a painful and slow crawl for the most part. If Rand had destroyed the Seanchan and pulled an epic LTT suicide with the CK on Dragonmount to end the book and series on a dark note it would have been a pretty cool way to go out at this point. The DO wins, the Wheel is broken, the pattern unraveled for eternity. Close out the WoT with a big bang.

[Jemlin]

I'm not sure Brandon got Cadsuane exactly. The incident with Tam for instance--I've no problem with Cadsuane getting told off, but her using the Power like that just doesn't fit her previous reactions. When someone confronts Cadsuane she has never responded in kind before--She does respond, sometimes with heat, but even the expression of that heat is dispassionate. A choice. Her use of the power against Tam just doesn't fit her nature.

 

Maybe her failure with Rand threw her more than she showed--yet still, it felt off. Like Brandon was forcing a situation in which Tam could tell her off as opposed to setting up a situation in which Tam and Cadsuane's natures lead to him successfully telling her off. Tam calls her a bully--but the thing is you can bully without being a bully. Doesn't necessarily make it better, but its true. In the earlier books that was Cadsuane, a woman who bullied. In this book, she is just a bully.

 

It's a subtle distinction, but for me it was that distinction--that Cadsuane only bullied, or acted high-handed with reason and for a purpose--that made her distinct from other Aes Sedai.

 

One of the posters above said that she was the model Aes Sedai, and in this book she was. In other books she dominated because she was capable of it, and had a reason that required it, and therefore as unpleasent as it may be, had a right to it. In this book it was like she was dominating simply because she thought she should.

 

It's sad. I've spent years defending Cadsuane to posters, because of the subtleties behind her high-handedness, but in this book those subtleties were absent, and she was everything that people characterized her to be, and more.

 

 

 

I agree. I don't think Brandon's writing of Cadsuane was really on with her character.  I felt her changes in mood and thought were a little forced and too quick.  I could see her getting into a situation where Tam would call her a bully, but not like THAT.  I think she was way too shook-up by what happened with Semi, uncharacteristically shook up.  Which to me, is writing against her previous character traits.  Maybe we could call it Tav'eren, but I doubt it. Her whole notion of believing Rand could stop her heart?  Odd.

 

But, either way, its what it is.  I am not content that Cadsuane was knocked down a peg or two like she was.  I am all for her being taught a lessen or two as well (any teacher should be taught by their students just as they teach them)...but, it was done a bit roughly.  At this point, I don't see why she would even need to meet Moiraine...Unless Moiraine is to teach her the lesson about Embracing Saidar in reference to "controlling" Rand.

 

[kari-no-sugata]

In the first half of the book Cadsuane came off reasonably well, her highlight being giving a Forsaken a spanking, literally. However, despite the insight she gained from that plot point, she still makes some grave errors. She cannot really admit a mistake - she has to keep her image after all. Personally, I thought Cadsuane came out very badly by the end of the book.

 

You could reasonably interpret Cadsuane's gamble with Tam as being to satisfy her own vanity. She can't admit to herself that she could really fail to succeed at a task (she can admit to a particular plan failing, but not herself failing). Which leads to her deciding to gamble the fate of the world for the sake of her own satisfaction, it seemed to me. Too much pride? Too much vanity in her seeing herself as being better than all the rest and trying too hard to live up to her reputation?

 

Basically, she got impatient. The same thing happened with Moiraine though for more obvious reasons in her case. But when Moiraine said she'd do whatever's necessary she actually meant it - she didn't let her pride get in the way. When Cadsuane says she'd do anything she doesn't seem to include treating Rand as an adult or admitting to any kind of mistake in front of him.

 

If she wants Rand to trust her, she could at least show him some trust first.

 

I don't want to "bash" Cadsuane too much - it's not like I hate her character or something. I would also point out that the basic plot would have been defined by RJ and everything BS wrote would have gone past "Team Jordan". For example, when Cadsuane lifts up Tam, Min thinks to herself that Cadsuane has treated a number of people similarly and that in such cases they were prone to bellowing. I don't think BS would have made up something like that.

 

 

Anyway... I'm quite interested in seeing how her relationship with Rand develops next. If we start immediately from when we last see Cadsuane, Nynaeve and Min, there'll be quite a bit of time between that and Rand returning. I'd rather like to see Nynaeve send Cadsuane packing (at least temporarily). If Nynaeve decides (quite reasonably) that Cadsuane has been making things worse rather than better with Rand then she could decide to put her foot down, forcibly if necessary. If she does, Cadsuane would have little real choice - for all of Cadsuane's tricks and experience, Nynaeve's sheer power would make for a rather one-sided contest. Maybe Nynaeve would tell Cadsuane to wait with Perrin until Rand comes back and has calmed down enough to revoke Cadsuane's banishment.

 

[Shimmer]

I think Moiraine will take Cadsuane's position, but Cadsuane will probably be an important link to "laughter and tears" for Rand and most likely, the Asha'man too.