Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[ShiftedInsights]

Another small point, I'm curious to find out if Rand's binding of the nine moons might have something to do with the Oath Rod, since it was called a Binder in the AOL. 

[MatrixM]

Isn't the line on the eye on the medallion a jagged version of the line in the aes sedai symbol? Lighning?

 

I don't think he'll pull down tuon's dynasty considering the out rigger novel and his love.

[Sentinel78]

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

I always just thought this meant Mat is lucky (i.e., fortune), Mat (i.e., the fox) is making the Seanchan chase him (i.e., the ravens fly) because he kidnapped Tuon (i.e., snatches the moons from out of the sky). 

 

In other words, snatching the moons from the sky isn't the literal sky, but just the kidnapping the 'moons' from their environment (in this case, Ebou Dar).  So basically I think this has been fulfilled already.

[lillcheese]

Another small point, I'm curious to find out if Rand's binding of the nine moons might have something to do with the Oath Rod, since it was called a Binder in the AOL. 

 

I like this.  I somewhat doubt Rand will suggest it though.  Maybe Egwene?  Like the only way she'll tolerate a truce between Rand & Seanchan is if ForTuona agrees to be bound?

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

I always just thought this meant Mat is lucky (i.e., fortune), Mat (i.e., the fox) is making the Seanchan chase him (i.e., the ravens fly) because he kidnapped Tuon (i.e., snatches the moons from out of the sky). 

 

In other words, snatching the moons from the sky isn't the literal sky, but just the kidnapping the 'moons' from their environment (in this case, Ebou Dar).  So basically I think this has been fulfilled already.

 

But why would a part of the Prophecy of the Dragon be referring to Mat by pronoun?  The other places that refer to Mat or Perrin they're called the Fox and Wolfking.  Everything else in the prophecy refers to things that RAND has to do.

 

The prophecy doesn't say that he'll snatch the Daughter of the Nine Moons, it says "moons".  We all went with the theory that Rand couldn't bind Tuon because she was not yet the Empress & it therefor would not fulfill the prophecy.  Why would that condition change for this prophecy? 

 

This prophecy seems to refer to Fortuona riding a raken with Mat.  Something's going to happen, maybe Rand will think they're attackers or scouts and shoot lightning at them.  He'll recognize Mat as he falls and catch them both. 

[Sentinel78]

But why would a part of the Prophecy of the Dragon be referring to Mat by pronoun?  The other places that refer to Mat or Perrin they're called the Fox and Wolfking.  Everything else in the prophecy refers to things that RAND has to do.

 

Within the context of the actual prophecy why wouldn't you be able to use pronouns to refer to Mat or Perrin?  "Luck his soul" is Mat, it doesn't say "Luck the Fox's soul"

[lillcheese]

But why would a part of the Prophecy of the Dragon be referring to Mat by pronoun?  The other places that refer to Mat or Perrin they're called the Fox and Wolfking.  Everything else in the prophecy refers to things that RAND has to do.

 

Within the context of the actual prophecy why wouldn't you be able to use pronouns to refer to Mat or Perrin?  "Luck his soul" is Mat, it doesn't say "Luck the Fox's soul"

 

If you look at the larger context of the entire prophecy, every* time "He" or "his" is used, it's a reference to something Rand will do.  It doesn't make sense that in this one passage, the pattern would change to be talking about Mat.  The prophecy is about the Dragon.

 

*the one exception: the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man.  I discount this because it is also the only place where "his" directly follows a named subject in the same sentence.

[Vulgir]

Wasn't there a prophecey or a dream that Egwene would be saved by, or climbs a mountain with, Tuon and they fly away on a raken or something?

[stoper]

2). As kac_04, it takes a lot of will power and strength for someone to resist Rand when he is like that. Even Cadsuane couldn't.

 

I don't think Tuon's strength had anything to do with that. I think Rand's touch to DO's True Power somehow compromised his tav'ern ability. Just how all good random incidents was gone and only the bad left.

 

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with Senchan and Tuon from now on. So far I was sure there will be peace between Rand and them and even with the WT. But now, after the attack, I just can't see them fighting side by side - AS and Seanchan. Well, Rand and Egwene looks like the only people who understand what's important, but...

 

Shame Tam had to appear just when Rand was about to do what I was waiting since the second book, shame...

[Vulgir]

Yeah theres definatly a dream or something where tuon has a sword on her back and she saves Egwene.

[lillcheese]

Wasn't there a prophecey or a dream that Egwene would be saved by, or climbs a mountain with, Tuon and they fly away on a raken or something?

 

The face of the Seanchan woman is unclear to Egwene, I think it even flickers between different faces. We don't know it was Tuon. She recognizes nationality by the accent.

[Swigaro]

2). As kac_04, it takes a lot of will power and strength for someone to resist Rand when he is like that. Even Cadsuane couldn't.

 

I don't think Tuon's strength had anything to do with that. I think Rand's touch to DO's True Power somehow compromised his tav'ern ability. Just how all good random incidents was gone and only the bad left.

 

It'll be interesting to see what will happen with Senchan and Tuon from now on. So far I was sure there will be peace between Rand and them and even with the WT. But now, after the attack, I just can't see them fighting side by side - AS and Seanchan. Well, Rand and Egwene looks like the only people who understand what's important, but...

 

 

I don't think Rand's attitude had anything to do with it.  Remember the wording of the prophacy, "He will bind the 9 Moons..." It did not say he will bind The Daughter of the 9 Moons...  It has been suggested by many that the 9 Moons is quite litterally, the Emperor/Empress of Seanchan (hence Daughter of, Court of and so on).  Since Tuon had not proclaimed herself Empress, the prophacy could not be fulfilled.  The fact that she almost gave in anyway shows how insanly powerfull Rand's Ta'verin effect is.  He nearly bent a prophacy to his will.  I think they will meet again, in the next book, and that For(tuon)a will be in for a really big surprise.  She will enter the meeting thinking herself far above this Dragon Reborn person, and end up granting him everything he asks for... 

[ShiftedInsights]

As for the pronoun bit, since the poetry is referring mostly to Rand, I can see how it could be construed that most of the pronoun uses could refer to him.  Usually in English (though not always, if there is any rule in the English language it is that there is nearly always an exception to a rule) a pronoun is denoted to refer to the last proper noun before it, he as in Fox (Mat), not he as in Rand. Just as the 'he' mentioned earlier refers to the Dark One, since that was the last proper noun mentioned, its similar to defining ones terms.  Since the poetry is mostly about Rand, most of the pronouns would refer to the Dragon,  who isn't mentioned at all in these last few quatrains. 

  Those last verses refer to Perrin and Mat, specifically for the purpose of mentioning that some of their actions will be the final indicators that the last battle is upon them. Perrin taking up the hammer and throwing away the axe is one of those things, but also being named Wolf King, which did not happen until meeting with Tylee in KOD, and even then he thinks the term is funny because wolves don't have kings.  He will think it's less funny once he is a King of men who happens to be able to talk to wolves.  For Mat, he needed to marry Tuon, and then he still has to lose an eye before the good bits of TG can get going (my silver marks are on the eye being traded to the Finn's for Moraine,not being ruined by lightining, since he has to give up half the light of the world to save the world, min saw an eye on a scale when viewing him, and also that Rand has just about no chance without a 'woman long dead', hmm, that thought leads me to think that there is a small chance the 'lightning his eye' means Moraine but I would not stake any credibility on that yet). Granted it is more than arguable that the 'Last Battle' is already in motion and has been for a while, but the battlefield is alot wider both as a front and as a concept than many of them think, but Perrin and Mat's actions in those final lines are necessary before Rand has a chance at anything resembling victory. Also, the whole underlying structure of Seanchan power is on the verge of collapse once wide knowledge of suldam == channelers comes out, especially considering their Empress would be one of the people who should be chained up forever under their present way of thinking. And I can't think of a more poetic way for the Seanchan nobility to find out the deep dark secret than for Tuon to end up on the business end of an adam in front of them, or for her to be subjected to an Oath on the Binder, which should only effect people who have the potential to channel (of course the Seanchan wouldn't know that yet), so I see at least a fair chance that some of Mat's actions could lead to Tuon being exposed as marath damane, along with the rest of the suldam, therefore pulling the moon from out the sky. 

[Jaric Mar Tedronai]

I second ShiftedInsights. I have thought, from the first time I saw someone post it, that it was crazy to assume that every "Him" or "He" or whatever in the Prophecies refers to Rand, especially in a stanza which is obviously about Mat or Perrin. I did not take the time to type out the explanation he did, and he did it much more eloquently than I could have, but now that it is there I'm throwing in my opinion.

[Declan]

thank you Jaric Mar, because i was defending myself about that same point in this thread about 5 pages ago. Poetry doesn't have to be as strict as some would like to think in these forums.

[Sentinel78]

I agree with the last few posts, and remember that the dragon prophecies are collections of different prophecies.  Some that are thought to relate to the dragon might very well relate to Mat/Perrin, even Egwene Nyneave and who knows who else.  Anything related to the Last Battle probably got lumped in with things that are more explicitly tied to Rand, like Callandor.  Foretelling comes at random times to different people, is written down and is then deciphered later.  The Foreteller only knows the words, but not the meaning behind the words, so unless the 'Dragon' is mentioned explicitly you can't really know for sure. 

 

These prophecies have continued throughout history, the most recent being Nicola's but Elaida and Gitara Sedai having a few the last couple decades as well.  Again, they're assumed to all relate to Rand for the most part, but that's assuming whoever aggregated these volumes of prophecy did a good job and interpreted them correctly, so who knows. 

[Raveen]

Wasn't there a prophecey or a dream that Egwene would be saved by, or climbs a mountain with, Tuon and they fly away on a raken or something?

 

The face of the Seanchan woman is unclear to Egwene, I think it even flickers between different faces. We don't know it was Tuon. She recognizes nationality by the accent.

 

My opinion on this is that its egeanin, the few times you see her in TGS she is pointed out to have a sword.

[Declan]

you mean Leilwin? hahahahaha. what a dumb name. she could be an important person given the fact that she knows alot about Seanchan ways yet she has converted to Randland's customs. so she could definitely help Rand or Egwene in the future.

[Sentinel78]

Egeanin/Leilwin is just a soldier that has about one year's worth of experience as Low Blood.  She was the first to figure out Sul'dam could channel among the Seanchan (that we know of) but everybody except the Seanchan know that now, and I don't see how Egeanin would be of any particular help convincing them of it.  I don't see how she can possibly help Egwene or Rand at all.  She's considered a traitor by the Seanchan and will carry no weight there, and I don't see that she has any special knowledge of the Seanchan that would lead to any kind of peace. 

 

I can't think of a reason, therefore, that she'd be in a position to offer any particular help to Egwene.

[stormcrow]

 

I don't think Rand's attitude had anything to do with it.  Remember the wording of the prophacy, "He will bind the 9 Moons..." It did not say he will bind The Daughter of the 9 Moons...  It has been suggested by many that the 9 Moons is quite litterally, the Emperor/Empress of Seanchan (hence Daughter of, Court of and so on).  Since Tuon had not proclaimed herself Empress, the prophacy could not be fulfilled.  The fact that she almost gave in anyway shows how insanly powerfull Rand's Ta'verin effect is.  He nearly bent a prophacy to his will.  I think they will meet again, in the next book, and that For(tuon)a will be in for a really big surprise.  She will enter the meeting thinking herself far above this Dragon Reborn person, and end up granting him everything he asks for... 

Has it been generally accepted that the prophecy in Randland hasn't been corrupted in the way the Seanchan one was?

[monkeypie]

 

3

5). I think Tuon's new name, Fortuona has something to do with the Prophecies:

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

Not sure what that means. Maybe it refers to the seanchan riding to battle and conquering. Who knows?

 

 

 

How about its about matt. His signet is a fox startling ravens into flight. And with Matt's luck and his current realtionship with tuon the rest makes sense

[lillcheese]

I second ShiftedInsights. I have thought, from the first time I saw someone post it, that it was crazy to assume that every "Him" or "He" or whatever in the Prophecies refers to Rand, especially in a stanza which is obviously about Mat or Perrin. I did not take the time to type out the explanation he did, and he did it much more eloquently than I could have, but now that it is there I'm throwing in my opinion.

 

1.  I didn't make an assumption.  I made an observation about the use of pronoun in the KC as it's been revealed so far.  Every time one of those "his" prophecies have been fulfilled, Rand has been the one doing it.

 

2.  I don't recall the origins of the KC.  AFAIR they are discussed by the characters as a cohesive body of work.  If they're coming from that many divergent sources, then I would tentatively go back to thinking it's about Mat.  I was rereading them yesterday and noticed that the cadence of the "Luck his soul" bit might be a bit off, which would support it having a different source/subject.

 

It's not that I think this should be poetic.  It's about one of those things not being like the others, one of those things just doesn't belong.  So, either it IS like the others and we just don't realize it yet, or it didn't belong in the KC in the first place.  Or, I suppose we might get more parts of the KC that would stand out in a similar way.  Seems a little late in the game for that.

 

Okay, my computer keeps wanting to restart. I'm going to get ice cream and think on what you guys said a bit more.

 

[Blademaster Tayos]

It's also important to remember that whenever Perrin or Mat are mentioned in the prophecies they always talk about the wolf king, or the fox, and that for any of the other prophecies mentioned Rand is the only character who had done the deed.

[Mr Ares]

Wasn't there a prophecey or a dream that Egwene would be saved by, or climbs a mountain with, Tuon and they fly away on a raken or something?

Yeah theres definatly a dream or something where tuon has a sword on her back and she saves Egwene.

Not quite. We have one of a Seanchan woman, identity unclear, with a sword on her back, saying "we can reach the top together", and another of Egwene being tied to a golden hawk. (The hawk is a Seanchan Imperial symbol, and Egwene's phrasing seem to indicate the hawk and the woman are separate.) The Dreams follow:

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.

 

- A Crown Of Swords, Unseen Eyes

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

 

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hand there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

 

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawling accent…

 

She had dreamed of a Seanchan before, a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her.

 

- Crossroads of Twilight, In The Night

 

1. I didn't make an assumption. I made an observation about the use of pronoun in the KC as it's been revealed so far. Every time one of those "his" prophecies have been fulfilled, Rand has been the one doing it.

But virtually all those prophecies are about Rand. That's why all those "he"s refer to him. If we have bits of prophecy that aren't about Rand, it follows that any him referred to will not be about Rand.

[singogreatest360]

One thing of note i thought to post is the translated lyrics to O Fortuna

 

O Fortune,

just as the moon

Stands constantly changing,

always increasing

or decreasing;

Detestable life

now difficult

and then easy

Deceptive sharp mind;

poverty

power

it melts them like ice.

 

Fate—monstrous

and empty,

you whirling wheel,

stand malevolent,

well-being is vain

and always fades to nothing,

shadowed

and veiled

you plague me too;

now through the game,

my bare back

I bring to your villainy.

 

Fate, in health

and in virtue,

is now against me

driven on

and weighted down,

always enslaved.

So at this hour

without delay

pluck the vibrating string;

since through Fate

strikes down the strong,

everyone weep with me!

 

Parts of this explain Fortuona's character VERY well!

[TheAngryDruid]

Egeanin/Leilwin is just a soldier that has about one year's worth of experience as Low Blood.  She was the first to figure out Sul'dam could channel among the Seanchan (that we know of) but everybody except the Seanchan know that now, and I don't see how Egeanin would be of any particular help convincing them of it.  I don't see how she can possibly help Egwene or Rand at all.  She's considered a traitor by the Seanchan and will carry no weight there, and I don't see that she has any special knowledge of the Seanchan that would lead to any kind of peace. 

 

I can't think of a reason, therefore, that she'd be in a position to offer any particular help to Egwene.

 

Well, one thing I can think of is that Egeanin/Leilwin could advise Mat of his status with the Seanchan and how that could affect things. This could be very useful information for Mat (and Rand) as the relationship with the Seanchan/Rand/WT gets ironed out.

 

I mean a declaration from the Prince of the Ravens to the assembled Blood that sul'dam are marathe'damane would be a real earthshaker. Or the threat of it.

 

Even if Rand/Mat/Eggy don't want to go that far, if Mat knows how to wield his influence with the Seanchan to aid Rand, or Egwene or Nynaeve or Perrin, or the Two Rivers, you know he will. Just look at his past behavior.