Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[nophone]

She defied a Ta'veren but not the Pattern! Ta'veren are responsible for bending the pattern around them. Never the less, this strength of character would be very important to the pattern as well. Point being that it HAD to go that way, or atleast END that way.

[Blackhoof]

That's making the assumption that those men can be turned against the Seanchan. The moment the Shadow senses a fight between Randland and the Seanchan, they are going to unleash all their troops and caught both sides from the back. Rand said it himself, he probably would be able to defeat the Seanchan, but it would take too long and in that time the Shadow would strike and end it all.

 

Also, 150-200k, that's a gross underestimation I would say. I'm thinking that even with Turan's losses, she's got 350k-400k if not more.

 

Firstly, we know that Rand is unwilling to turn his men against the Seanchan, but Fortuaona doesn't know that.

Secondly, your right, now that i look at the map again, she does have more, but she is still outclassed. On Altaras eastern border, Tuon has 100-200k troops and 100+ Damane, while not very far from their Rand has 35k legion of the dragon crossbowmen, 200k Aiel spears, 2000 wise ones, 90k cairhienin and illianer soldiers, 21 Aes Sedai and 175  Asha'man. Tuon has 100k troops and 50-150 damane in Murandy, and an estimated 100k troops and 400 damane spread around the altaran countryside. northeast of amador (city) she has 50k soldiers and 50+ damane. she also has 30-50k troops and 100 damane spread across the tarobon countryside and 50k troops and 50+ damane concentrated northeast of tanchico.

 

Rand has another 200k aiel and another 2000 wise ones in key locations around the continent (most of which, it should be noted, are not in position now to influence the seanchan) and another 345k loyalist troops  and 400 channelers (more if you count the darkfriend infested Black tower) at his command, not including the 130k andoran troops, 200k borderlanders, and 100k soldiers and roughly 850 Aes Sedai that egwene commands, both of which will undoughtebly fight the seanchan should they attack.

 

In total, Fortuona has roughly 500k troops and about 700 channelers at her disposal while the non-seanchean friendly nations have a combined 1'300'000 (amazing, i know,) and over 5250 channelers. more than enough to whoop the seanchans butt, (even though we know Rand is unwilling too) and Fortuona would know it. So, in a way, we were both wrong, and we were both right.  :)

[Auld Manriva]

You all forget Oh Fortuna the Extremely Short stood up to a Ta'veren with a Black Aura around him which is what made her decide to deny him. It was her superstition and ingrained reliance on "signs" and "omens" that allowed her to deny Rand that time. NEXT time....

 

You'll See.

[randfandom]

Firstly, we know that Rand is unwilling to turn his men against the Seanchan, but Fortuaona doesn't know that.

 

How do we know that? He was reluctant to do that before the meeting with Tuon. Afterwards he has no compunctions attacking them - he just prefers to concentrate his troops against the main target.

 

Secondly, your right, now that i look at the map again, she does have more, but she is still outclassed. On Altaras eastern border, Tuon has 100-200k troops and 100+ Damane, while not very far from their Rand has 35k legion of the dragon crossbowmen, 200k Aiel spears, 2000 wise ones, 90k cairhienin and illianer soldiers, 21 Aes Sedai and 175  Asha'man.

 

But Rand is pushing towards the blight (north) not Seanchan, unless they attack. Anyhow, the channeler count is misleading. You forget that the damane are highly trained military assets, whereas the Aes Sedai can't fight (Three Oaths) and the Wise Ones don't generally fight, and are definitely not well trained. Only the Ashaman will do real fighting, and they did not do that well against damane in the past. Also have you considered the hundreds of recently captured damane (mainly Shaido Wise Ones and ex-kinswomen) who can be put into crash training mode and sent off to battle?

 

Tuon has 100k troops and 50-150 damane in Murandy, and an estimated 100k troops and 400 damane spread around the altaran countryside. northeast of amador (city) she has 50k soldiers and 50+ damane. she also has 30-50k troops and 100 damane spread across the tarobon countryside and 50k troops and 50+ damane concentrated northeast of tanchico.

 

Does Rand have any troops in those areas? Especially Murandy, right next to Andor?

 

In total, Fortuona has roughly 500k troops and about 700 channelers at her disposal while the non-seanchean friendly nations have a combined 1'300'000 (amazing, i know,) and over 5250 channelers. more than enough to whoop the seanchans butt, (even though we know Rand is unwilling too) and Fortuona would know it. So, in a way, we were both wrong, and we were both right.  :)

 

Nope, Tuon has more channelers than that and also a highly trained military force, with a unified command structure. Her opponents are fructured and while I doubt she could take the areas directly under Rand's control, it is highly conceivable, if he sends all his troops to the blight.

My guess is that her main targer now will be Rand himself (prophecies). In that, a surprise attack utilizing Traveling (Rand does not know that Seanchan have Traveling now) may just work in their favor. Capturing the DR could also put his empire in disarray and aid Seanchan in continuing to nibble on their opponents.

 

Of course, capturing the DR tends to backfire for the perpetrators (see Dumai's Wells, Far Madding, Semirhage...) - which could just neatly lead to the fulfillment of the DR/Seanchan prophecy (the real one presumably)...

 

[Blackhoof]

The recently captured damane will be useless for a few weeks at least, and i assume that the captured shaido wise ones were added to the map, but if they weren't, then she has perhaps a thousand channelers. Yes, rand is marching for the blight, yes, he is unwilling to commit to a war against the seanchan, yes, last time we saw him he was prepared to lose half his empire to the seanchan to win the last battle, no, i doubt Fortuona knows all this. Judging from her povs, she expects the last battle to be between the empire and the shadow more collosal seanchan arrogance, not 'the light and the shadow' its 'the empire and the shadow') and probably expects Rand to fight her, because "this will not put him in a worse position to bargain with us, it will turn him against us" She expects rand to be furious and fight. Also, half the seanchan forces on this side of the ocean are non-seanchan, therefore not as good. Also, the asha'man did pretty well aginst the damane when they fought in path of daggers, 50? of them and 5000 men stood toe-to-toe against scores of damane and like 50k? seanchan.

 

As for the Aes Sedai inability to fight, i think that egwene will find a way around this, like convincing the sisters that being captured is "worse than death" or "as good as death" or, because damane are often given different names and they are brainwashed, maybe you could twist it so that the "life" that you are defending is not the living life, life as in your identity and personality, maybe. i dont know.

 

The wise ones can and will fight, and while they are not practised at it, they can still inflict massive damage.

 

And, no, Rand doesn't have many troops at all in those atreas; at this point he has ulled all his forces to tear and illian, i think, or at least the troops that were in arad doman. And he has sent ituralde and his men to the blight.

[Diederichos]

*scratches* Does one forget Rand and callandor? The Asha'man had the surprise factor going for them in that fight, not so sure that the Seanchan will be as easily caught by male channelers again. But again, the main point remains that Rand will not attack, and there is only one force that might independently try fighting the Seanchan and that's the WT, and they sure as heck won't win.

[Sharaman]

*scratches* Does one forget Rand and callandor? The Asha'man had the surprise factor going for them in that fight, not so sure that the Seanchan will be as easily caught by male channelers again. But again, the main point remains that Rand will not attack, and there is only one force that might independently try fighting the Seanchan and that's the WT, and they sure as heck won't win.

 

Are you forgetting Egwene's tactic of creating circles? That's the biggest hole in the Seanchan method of collaring and Eg obviously knows that. If the WT takes on damane again, in a pure channeling battle, the damane will get pwned. They'd be shielded, uncollared and turned into weeping willows very, very quickly.

 

[Durinax]

the worst thing is that the tower will have to kill many damane because I dont believe they have the capabilities to hold them all, keep them shielded, and controlled until they can be rebuilt as functional human beings

[Majsju]

*scratches* Does one forget Rand and callandor? The Asha'man had the surprise factor going for them in that fight, not so sure that the Seanchan will be as easily caught by male channelers again. But again, the main point remains that Rand will not attack, and there is only one force that might independently try fighting the Seanchan and that's the WT, and they sure as heck won't win.

 

Are you forgetting Egwene's tactic of creating circles? That's the biggest hole in the Seanchan method of collaring and Eg obviously knows that. If the WT takes on damane again, in a pure channeling battle, the damane will get pwned. They'd be shielded, uncollared and turned into weeping willows very, very quickly.

 

 

Problem for the WT is that because of the 3 Oaths, they would not be able to go on the offensive, they would have to wait for the Seanchan to make enough of a move that the Aes Sedai actually felt threatened.

[Durinax]

they could go out to battle, but they would lose quite a few in the first few skirmishes until it gets to the point that AS feel threatened just by the sight of seanchan

[nophone]

You all forget Oh Fortuna the Extremely Short stood up to a Ta'veren with a Black Aura around him which is what made her decide to deny him. It was her superstition and ingrained reliance on "signs" and "omens" that allowed her to deny Rand that time. NEXT time....

 

You'll See.

 

agreed

[lbeefus]

I really want to see Rand find out that Mat is Tuon/Fortuona's husband.  That will truly be a -hilarious- type of scene.

 

"You convinced Mat to marry!?!?"  Rand's mind spun in a flash of colors and he found himself going down on one knee. "I wasn't going to bow to anyone, but that...  I guess the Last Battle truly is upon us."  :)

[wingedearth]

*scratches* Does one forget Rand and callandor? The Asha'man had the surprise factor going for them in that fight, not so sure that the Seanchan will be as easily caught by male channelers again. But again, the main point remains that Rand will not attack, and there is only one force that might independently try fighting the Seanchan and that's the WT, and they sure as heck won't win.

 

Are you forgetting Egwene's tactic of creating circles? That's the biggest hole in the Seanchan method of collaring and Eg obviously knows that. If the WT takes on damane again, in a pure channeling battle, the damane will get pwned. They'd be shielded, uncollared and turned into weeping willows very, very quickly.

 

 

Problem for the WT is that because of the 3 Oaths, they would not be able to go on the offensive, they would have to wait for the Seanchan to make enough of a move that the Aes Sedai actually felt threatened.

 

Egwene could always remove the Three Oaths from all the Aes Sedai and declare a channeling war on the Seanchan. I mean, the Last Battle's coming, so there's no time to f*** around. The Aes Sedai can start making weapons for one man to kill another, and start roasting Seanchan and Darkfriends with the One Power. They also need to be able to fight the Ashaman in case those guys turn to the Shadow.

[Myyrth]

I'm confused by why people would admire Tuon for standing up to Rand, considering that Rand is motivated only by a desire to save all of reality from the DO.  Tuon just like every Seanchan is a self-deluded fool whose long isolation from the rest of the world has led to an illusion of superiority.  The Seanchan deserve nothing but to be crushed or follow licking at the boot heels of the Dragon.  Their flawed prophecies are doing nothing but weakening the world in the fact of a reality ending threat.

 

Also in regards to Egwene removing the three oaths, considering her "revelations" about the necessity of the Oaths I find that unlikely.  Also their is no stopping an Aes Sedai from stomping all over any Shadowspawn. I doubt the Asha'man will turn to the Shadow.  Mazrim Taim may have some in his grip but the majority will remain loyal to the Dragon.

 

In the end lets hope all out war is avoided between the Seanchan and the Dragon, cause that's simply bad news for everyone but the Dark One.

[ed2funy]

Because he was in darth rand mode.

Also, because overcoming him in that state means she must of been strong or something.

 

You could say that Randland has been isolated from the rest of the world too. Or Shara. Just saying. Or the LOM!

 

 

[Ramza20]

Other than Moraine, I think one of the best parts of Towers of Midnight is going to be the Seanchan Bloodknives hidden throughout the tower killing as many Marath' Damane as they can. These assasins seem more deadly than even the Gray Men with their invisibility and poisin stick pins  :)

[ed2funy]

Other than Moraine, I think one of the best parts of Towers of Midnight is going to be the Seanchan Bloodknives hidden throughout the tower killing as many Marath' Damane as they can. These assasins seem more deadly than even the Gray Men with their invisibility and poisin stick pins  :)

 

True, but they have at maximum a few more weeks. People will start grouping together if AS are dying.

And some might get caught.

Bryne got one after just being bonded....Other Warders might be better at it.

:-\

[Ramza20]

Other than Moraine, I think one of the best parts of Towers of Midnight is going to be the Seanchan Bloodknives hidden throughout the tower killing as many Marath' Damane as they can. These assasins seem more deadly than even the Gray Men with their invisibility and poisin stick pins  :)

 

True, but they have at maximum a few more weeks. People will start grouping together if AS are dying.

And some might get caught.

Bryne got one after just being bonded....Other Warders might be better at it.

:-\

 

Very true. But you know the Bloodknives with kill some Aes Sedai before all is said and done.

[ed2funy]

Yes.

I am just skeptical as to how many.

They are still kind of shook up over everything (female wielding Saidin..killed two AS and a Warder I believe).

Also, outwardly, the AS might start working together, but they built some pretty deep hate under Elaida....some sisters might be in the habit of walking with someone else.

[Ramza20]

Here is a long shot. Fortuona, Tuon, whatever you wanna call her dies. Making the Prince of the Ravens the first Seanchan Emperor in many centuries. Hahaha, can you imagine Mat as an Emporer?

[ed2funy]

They don't like it...run!

Before they hurt you!

 

:D

[Ramza20]

They don't like it...run!

Before they hurt you!

 

:D

 

Oh come on. Who wouldn't love to see the best personality in the entire series take over one of the most hated societies in the series. Although I'm not even sure if him simply being Prince of Ravens would give him the authority to take over the throne if Tuon did die.

[ed2funy]

I had mentioned that he might be Emperor with her now, and they pretty much all said that she wouldn't allow it. :D

 

[Ramza20]

Haha, looks like we are the loners here man. Screw Tuon, if she dies I'd like to see her stop Mat.  ;D. She totally used Mat for the good of the Empire, how awesome is it to see her squirm because he is much more of a General than she had ever thought.

[Ramza20]

Do you think that there is a significance to the soldier with a "helmet like the head of a monstrous insect"(obviously Seanchan) that Coumin talks to when Rand is reliving former Aiel lives in Rhuidian? This scene with Coumin takes place during the end of the war of power, right after Lews Therin sealed the DO's prison. Therefor Artur Hawkwing wouldn't have been born for almost another 2000 years. Something about the Seanchan nobody knows? Could this be the BIG unnoticed thing in book 4-6?