Tuon and the Seanchan (Full Book Spoilers)

[ed2funy]

How do they think slavery is wrong?

 

Damane are not the only slaves...

 

Also, I am comparing them to how we see things, because we are evaluating them. If I lived in a time and place where slavery was common, I would have different views on it.

[SimpleJo]

The Seanchan themselves think that slavery is wrong, and one of the justification for taking damane is that if they didn't  channelers would control everyone and make them their slaves.

Quite the opposite in fact.  They believe in slavery, in fact they institutionalize it by giving certain groups of slaves more rights/freedoms than common freemen.  When you have a society that regulates whole sections of their society into knowing that their children's best hope is to become de'couvale to the right person or at the right strata of society while at the same time treating a whole segment of the population as a pet dog something IS VERY WRONG and there is NO EXPLANATION that will make it right, NONE.

[USURP888]

Quite the opposite in fact.  They believe in slavery, in fact they institutionalize it by giving certain groups of slaves more rights/freedoms than common freemen.  When you have a society that regulates whole sections of their society into knowing that their children's best hope is to become de'couvale to the right person or at the right strata of society while at the same time treating a whole segment of the population as a pet dog something IS VERY WRONG and there is NO EXPLANATION that will make it right, NONE.

 

The Seanchan institutionalized slavery and you say its wrong. The various monarchies and feudal lords of Randland call its citizens free but they live under the rules and whims of their lords and kings. As Rand himself concluded, these Seanchan rule their people far better than any in Randland save perhaps the Aiel.

 

Slaves have a way of "escaping" their lot in life, remember Selucia was offered nobility and money by the empress upon Tuon's naming day..BUT SHE REFUSED. Another example, when Egeanin thought she was about to be taken by seekers, she wanted to free Domon and give him all her possessions by writing a document (forgot what its called), again HE REFUSED. Lastly, when High Lord Turak died, his Da'covale killed themselves intoning loyalty till death or something, if they were treated cruelly or they think their lot in life is unfair, one or two or even all of them could have fled.

 

When Furyk Karede (Deathwatch guard) was visited by Almurat Mor (Seeker), Mor commented on the honor karede had with two of his sons following in his footsteps..what's the point of commenting on it if those two sons didn't have a choice and all of the Deathwatch Guards' offsprings automatically becomes Deathwatch Guards, Slave they may be, but clearly Karede sees being a Deathwatch Guard as a position of high honor. Also on the same meeting, when Karede asked for the seekers name the way Mor answered made Karede thinks he had a right to be proud. Lastly, after Mat and the Band slaughtered the mercenaries that were after Tuon, Capt. Musenge was shown having two ravens tatoos with the sleeves of his dress sewn lightly as if easy to tear and reveal what it hides, clearly an indication that the deathwatch guards deem their stature with pride.

 

Unlike the Deathwatch guard, seekers and so'jhins, Da'covales are not hereditary or passed down. There are two types of da'covale. One type of Da'covale are those criminals or of the blood that were punished like Liandrin and Suroth. Even tuon herself thought she had to be careful because even the children of the Empress are not immune to such punishments.  Remember when Rand cast down Colaveare (sp) and took away all her estates and titles, she was so shocked that she had no choice but to commit suicide, clearly this shows that such things are not done to the nobility. In Randland, there are laws for the nobility and laws for the common man. Personally, I'd rather have the Seanchan version of equal justice.

 

The other type of Da'covale are those taken for their beauty and asked to serve inside the houses of the High blood. I would not doubt that these people were taken from the houses of common free folks and that being selected is considered a high honor for their household much like it was before during China's empire age. These type of Da'covale are never mistreated, I find it hard to believe that the Seanchan would treat the everyday man on the street with light justice and then be harsh to their da'covales.

 

The Seanchan do not consider their slaves PET DOGS and to say no explanation is needed is to say there is no purpose for this entire thread..that is too simplistic. Open your mind some and try to see past the label "slave".

[ed2funy]

With Egeanin and Domon, they were in love.

 

As for Turak's slaves...People who know only one thing in life tend to believe it.

If they know nothing else, and are still beaten every once in awhile, they will think their master is good because he doesn't beat them as often.

 

The Deathwatch Guards, who are still slaves, are mainly soldiers. I think the title of 'property' they get is just to make them sound more 'honored'.

 

Most of us have already agreed that the Justice system of the Seanchan is the best.

 

As we have seen no evidence to the contrary (that I remember), I am pretty sure the pretty cup-bearing da'covale still get beat.

 

So, all in all, I would rather live in a society without the slaves.

[USURP888]

With Egeanin and Domon, they were in love.

I am saying there IS a system in place to free a slave, Egeanin's reason for freeing Domon might be love but others of the blood can free their slave for other reasons.

 

As for Turak's slaves...People who know only one thing in life tend to believe it.

If they know nothing else, and are still beaten every once in awhile, they will think their master is good because he doesn't beat them as often.

 

As we have seen no evidence to the contrary (that I remember), I am pretty sure the pretty cup-bearing da'covale still get beat.

I don't quite understand..you are saying since there is no evidence they are not beaten..that means that they are ??

 

So, all in all, I would rather live in a society without the slaves.

 

In the real world, so would I  :P  but in the world as RJ wrote it, I would much rather live under Seanchan rule than under the Monarchs and Lords of Randland.

[Durinax]

In the real world, so would I    but in the world as RJ wrote it, I would much rather live under Seanchan rule than under the Monarchs and Lords of Randland.

I would rather live in the Two Rivers :P

[Dragons_Eggman]

The Two Rivers for me too. They don't pay tax!! ;D

[ed2funy]

I am saying we have seen and heard that they can be beaten..we have heard nothing that they don't get beaten (besides it would be shameful to do it yourself, which means they still can be beat).

[lordofsoup]

Andor and the boarderlands do not just take commoners lives because they can.  At least in Randland the people are free to leave, but in seanchan if you are a cupbeared then ur life suks and u cant even leave to become a soldier the like to advance yourself a little. 

[BunBun]

Hi, first post here.

It seems weird to me that Rand (and some people on this board) completely accept that the Seanchan are great rulers and administrators. No-one seems to have realised that his lands are swamped with refugees...who fled the Seanchan.

It's a lot easier to have peaceful orderly cities if there aren't huge crowds of frightened, starving refugees everywhere. The Seanchan are one of the reasons that his countries have so many problems.

 

Anyway, I've loved reading all the comments about TGS!

[Durinax]

Hi, first post here.

It seems weird to me that Rand (and some people on this board) completely accept that the Seanchan are great rulers and administrators. No-one seems to have realised that his lands are swamped with refugees...who fled the Seanchan.

It's a lot easier to have peaceful orderly cities if there aren't huge crowds of frightened, starving refugees everywhere. The Seanchan are one of the reasons that his countries have so many problems.

 

Anyway, I've loved reading all the comments about TGS!

The refugee problem is a predicament, but anyone who conquers an area will have refuges fleeing.

[metaphor]

The Seanchan themselves think that slavery is wrong, and one of the justification for taking damane is that if they didn't  channelers would control everyone and make them their slaves.

Quite the opposite in fact.  They believe in slavery, in fact they institutionalize it by giving certain groups of slaves more rights/freedoms than common freemen.  When you have a society that regulates whole sections of their society into knowing that their children's best hope is to become de'couvale to the right person or at the right strata of society while at the same time treating a whole segment of the population as a pet dog something IS VERY WRONG and there is NO EXPLANATION that will make it right, NONE.

 

 

 

Perhaps I said it in the wrong way.

 

What meant is that as a justification for leashing damane they say that if they let them go free they would enslave all others(I think it was Renna who said it to egwene). SO in a way they are aware of how undesirable slavery is, and yet at the same time they accept it and even institutionalize it.

 

[ed2funy]

I don't remember that quote...so, if you could remind us, that would be great.

 

But, from what I remember, the Seanchan hate channelers because over on that side of the Aryth, they were power-grabbing outright fighting. They were worse than the AS here, because they didn't have the Oaths.

That is why they collared them. I don't think they think it is undersirable.

[aunt_pol]

 

I'm just actually rereading TGS, in the chapter where Rand & Tuon meet, and literally the last couple words I read before I put the book down for the evening were Tuon's POV, thinking how freaked she was to be in the presence of an unleashed damane. I don't think that woman is ever gonna bend on the collaring.

And even if Rand ( and prob Mat) find some way to make her, a prejudice that big, based on a fear that strong, would presumably destabilise the entire society fairly speedy. If, of course, it wasn't totally shot already.

 

Aah.

 

Can the White Tower possibly agree to take all the damane after the Last Battle and rehabilitate them?

Crazy, I know...

[thewalrus777]

I don't remember that quote...so, if you could remind us, that would be great.

 

But, from what I remember, the Seanchan hate channelers because over on that side of the Aryth, they were power-grabbing outright fighting. They were worse than the AS here, because they didn't have the Oaths.

That is why they collared them. I don't think they think it is undersirable.

 

They were only worse then the AS on this side of the ocean, because evrtything those channelers did was out of fear. It was well known that the Hawkwing family HATED channelers. Those channelers in Seanchan did everything out fear, and naturally would fight for power, if it meant not being collared. No one would want to be collared and controlled, NO ONE. Not even non channelers. The Seanchan just think that collaring channelers is the only solution, and it isn't.

 

We've seen it in the AoL, that AS(without oaths, and both genders)can work for the greater good. It has happened before and will happen again. I just believe the Seanchan are trying to stop change, and that my friends is impossible. Change is inevitable.

[Durinax]

I don't remember that quote...so, if you could remind us, that would be great.

 

But, from what I remember, the Seanchan hate channelers because over on that side of the Aryth, they were power-grabbing outright fighting. They were worse than the AS here, because they didn't have the Oaths.

That is why they collared them. I don't think they think it is undersirable.

 

They were only worse then the AS on this side of the ocean, because evrtything those channelers did was out of fear. It was well known that the Hawkwing family HATED channelers. Those channelers in Seanchan did everything out fear, and naturally would fight for power, if it meant not being collared. No one would want to be collared and controlled, NO ONE. Not even non channelers. The Seanchan just think that collaring channelers is the only solution, and it isn't.

 

We've seen it in the AoL, that AS(without oaths, and both genders)can work for the greater good. It has happened before and will happen again. I just believe the Seanchan are trying to stop change, and that my friends is impossible. Change is inevitable.

wasnt it stated that when the seanchan arrived the AS where fighting between themselves to try and gain greater power, and that is when one AS stepped forward and created the leash so that her rivals could be destroyed

[thewalrus777]

I don't remember that quote...so, if you could remind us, that would be great.

 

But, from what I remember, the Seanchan hate channelers because over on that side of the Aryth, they were power-grabbing outright fighting. They were worse than the AS here, because they didn't have the Oaths.

That is why they collared them. I don't think they think it is undersirable.

 

They were only worse then the AS on this side of the ocean, because evrtything those channelers did was out of fear. It was well known that the Hawkwing family HATED channelers. Those channelers in Seanchan did everything out fear, and naturally would fight for power, if it meant not being collared. No one would want to be collared and controlled, NO ONE. Not even non channelers. The Seanchan just think that collaring channelers is the only solution, and it isn't.

 

We've seen it in the AoL, that AS(without oaths, and both genders)can work for the greater good. It has happened before and will happen again. I just believe the Seanchan are trying to stop change, and that my friends is impossible. Change is inevitable.

wasnt it stated that when the seanchan arrived the AS where fighting between themselves to try and gain greater power, and that is when one AS stepped forward and created the leash so that her rivals could be destroyed

 

Yeah i believe that was the situation, when the Seanchan first arrived from their trip from Randland. You are also talking about a land that we really know nothing about before the arrival of the Hawkwings. For all we know the native channelers that were there, had no structure of learning and were considered to be on their own in that fashion. Not to mention if there was even an actual structure of government in place. Maybe it was just a bunch of unguided female channelers trying to lead their villages to greater glory. We don't know the extent of that background.

 

All we know is that the Seanchan only see the OP as a weapon. The complete opposite of what the AS in Randland are trying to do. Their oaths even state it. And we also know that the PoV from the Seanchan is extremely biased. They hate channelers. Almost if not equal to what the Whitecloaks have for them.

[Diederichos]

Seanchan when Luthair and his people arrived was divided into a multitude of warring kingdoms, a large number of which were led by female channelers and presumably many of which had female channelers within their power structures. The arrival's dislike and distrust of channelers grew into outright hatred as a result of dealing with those channelers and the general deceptiveness and manipulation of Seanchan(which we see a hint of in the dealings of the Blood).

 

That's what we know about Seanchan prior to Luthair according to the BWB and the books.

[nophone]

I had to applaud Fortuona during her scene with Rand. I can only imagine how much it takes for someone to deny a Tav'ern the way that she did. Also, when she was trying to find a middle ground that they had in common to make the talk go smoother. Can't wait for the next scene with Rand and her. It will be great.

 

She didn't deny the Ta'veren. It seemed more difficult than it was because he does pull so much influence, but it is prophesy that demands that Rand be pulled to kneel before her and not the other way around. It couldn't have happened any other way. Ta'veren, when present pull the threads of the pattern around them. If prophesy is to be fulfilled, he would have been pulling the threads that would lead to her not agreeing to this. She even said that the words that came out of her mouth were not the ones she expected to be there.

[nophone]

I have several things to say on this topic.

 

1). I loved the scene between For(tuon)a and Beslan. It showed that she really does care and is a very good ruler. Also gives us insight into her plans for the Seanchan plans for their war.

 

2). As kac_04, it takes a lot of will power and strength for someone to resist Rand when he is like that. Even Cadsuane couldn't.

 

3). However, there is something I noticed about their meeting. She was the Daughter of Nine Moons when they first met and her placing Rand on equal stage as her was her way of "conceding to him." Now that she's the Empress, Rand will undoubtedly be seen as beneath her.

 

4). The Seanchan will now be able to Travel. They might be able to take Arad Doman, Illian and Murandy very soon. The dynamics of warfare and politics have changed.

 

5). I think Tuon's new name, Fortuona has something to do with the Prophecies:

 

Fortune rides like the sun on high

with the fox that makes the ravens fly.

Luck his soul, the lightning his eye,

He snatches the moons from out of the sky.

 

Not sure what that means. Maybe it refers to the seanchan riding to battle and conquering. Who knows?

 

6). It seems that Tuon is returning some of the feelings that Mat has for her. Should be interesting the next time they meet.

 

and finally,

 

7). After ordering the raid on the White Tower, Tuon believes this will "set the Dragon Reborn against them" as they had previously been "against him." I'm not exactly sure what will be his response after his revelation on Dragonmount. I don't think Egween will approve as Elaida foretold that "the Dragon Reborn would know the Amyrlin's anger."

 

So... If Tuon is "dead" then is Fortuana married to Mat? He married the daughter of the 9 moons not the empereress her self... there was that whole distinction about her being a new person. Mat may be fortunate again to have dodged the ball and chain of holy (mat)rimony.

[nophone]

 

I'm just actually rereading TGS, in the chapter where Rand & Tuon meet, and literally the last couple words I read before I put the book down for the evening were Tuon's POV, thinking how freaked she was to be in the presence of an unleashed damane. I don't think that woman is ever gonna bend on the collaring.

And even if Rand ( and prob Mat) find some way to make her, a prejudice that big, based on a fear that strong, would presumably destabilise the entire society fairly speedy. If, of course, it wasn't totally shot already.

 

Aah.

 

Can the White Tower possibly agree to take all the damane after the Last Battle and rehabilitate them?

Crazy, I know...

 

Tuan will be collared, mark my words.

[ed2funy]

Just because she became Empress does not mean her marriage is invalid anymore.

Mat just moves up with her.

 

Also, we don't know if that prophecy of Rand kneeling to her is even the original.

[nophone]

Just because she became Empress does not mean her marriage is invalid anymore.

Mat just moves up with her.

 

Also, we don't know if that prophecy of Rand kneeling to her is even the original.

 

I'm just commenting on the fact that she doesn't "become" empress, she is reborn as the princess, and the entire chapter is called "Tuon Dies". No simple matter.

[ed2funy]

So Mat is 'dead' too.

That is just how they do it in that society.

 

When someone takes a new name, they don't lose everything.

[Bastor]

Mat should grow in rank with her I suppose...During the whole Fortuona scene I was just laughing my ass off thinking about "Emperor Mat" ... imagine his surprise.