A song of Ice and Fire, discussion (spoilers)

[Werthead]

I'm excited and sad all at the same time.

 

I wanted HBO to do WoT, not ASoIaF.

 

So much more material with WoT...

 

That is the problem, as Red Eagle/Universal are now struggling with. Too much material to do it properly, not to mention way too high a special effects budget needed. HBO also wanted to ease into the fantasy marketplace with a work that wasn't so overtly Tolkien-derived (at least for the first book), had lots of expensive monsters and so forth.

 

In addition, HBO wanted to work with writer David Benioff, and this was the project he wanted to do, not WoT.

 

If ASoIaF on HBO is a success, I wouldn't be surprised to see Showtime or AMC looking at getting their own fantasy series, and WoT is an obvious contender assuming that there is no further progress with the Universal/Red Eagle project.

[Majsju]

 

 

If ASoIaF on HBO is a success, I wouldn't be surprised to see Showtime or AMC looking at getting their own fantasy series, and WoT is an obvious contender assuming that there is no further progress with the Universal/Red Eagle project.

 

Unfortunatly, yes. Which if it happened would mean a butchered story to keep it pg13. Disneyfied WoT, what a dream...

 

[Anoxanmore]

I have to agree with Majsju, keeping WoT PG13 is as bad as keeping SoT PG, like they are doing.

[shinerfan]

Where exactly in WoT is this adult content that wouldn't fit a PG-13 rating? There's no explicit sex; the violence is on a par with LotR, except maybe the battle at Dumai's Wells, the Ashaman's methods were pretty gruesome. Except for that one scene it easily fits a PG-13 content level.

[Anoxanmore]

Where exactly in WoT is this adult content that wouldn't fit a PG-13 rating? There's no explicit sex; the violence is on a par with LotR, except maybe the battle at Dumai's Wells, the Ashaman's methods were pretty gruesome. Except for that one scene it easily fits a PG-13 content level.

Well there is quite a bit of sexuality... Shinerean Baths in EotW, pillow friends, Aiel steam tents, Rand + Elayne, Min, Aviendha, scandily clad women in Caemlyn, Cairhien, Perrin walking in on Moraine (TDR) Perrin and Faile (if they get that far (TSR)), TGH, EotW, TDR, has a lot of very brutal violence too.

[shinerfan]

Where exactly in WoT is this adult content that wouldn't fit a PG-13 rating? There's no explicit sex; the violence is on a par with LotR, except maybe the battle at Dumai's Wells, the Ashaman's methods were pretty gruesome. Except for that one scene it easily fits a PG-13 content level.

Well there is quite a bit of sexuality... Shinerean Baths in EotW, pillow friends, Aiel steam tents, Rand + Elayne, Min, Aviendha, scandily clad women in Caemlyn, Cairhien, Perrin walking in on Moraine (TDR) Perrin and Faile (if they get that far (TSR)), TGH, EotW, TDR, has a lot of very brutal violence too.

 

All of which easily fits a PG-13 rating. Remember, we're not talking about a G rating.

[Anoxanmore]

Where exactly in WoT is this adult content that wouldn't fit a PG-13 rating? There's no explicit sex; the violence is on a par with LotR, except maybe the battle at Dumai's Wells, the Ashaman's methods were pretty gruesome. Except for that one scene it easily fits a PG-13 content level.

Well there is quite a bit of sexuality... Shinerean Baths in EotW, pillow friends, Aiel steam tents, Rand + Elayne, Min, Aviendha, scandily clad women in Caemlyn, Cairhien, Perrin walking in on Moraine (TDR) Perrin and Faile (if they get that far (TSR)), TGH, EotW, TDR, has a lot of very brutal violence too.

Baring of a breast, single one, requires R rating according to the MPAA

All of which easily fits a PG-13 rating. Remember, we're not talking about a G rating.

[Hallow]

Oh noes, a child might see a boob, man in the sky forbid! It's not like the vast majority (of boys) find other ways to see them anyway ;D

 

(Not taking a shot at you Anox, just at the ridiculous rating regulations)

[Majsju]

There is quite a bit of sex and nudity that has a place in the story.

And a great deal of the violence is far more blood&gore than lotr. Just think of Perrins fights with a hammer, think they should shoot him just boping his opponent in the chest with his hamer, and they would fall over?

 

Censorship = bad telly/movies, simple as that.

[Werthead]

Extract from the new SoIaF prequel novella, THE MYSTERY KNIGHT, here.

[alligator]

I'm almost half way through A Feast for Crows.... have to say, I've liked each book less. It's not that the constant character killing bothers me (well, I mean, it does a bit, but that's not my problem with the series). It's just that GRRM is overly focused on violence and destruction. ASoIaF is intended to be relatively historically accurate, okay, the real world is violent, whatever, but the PAIN that every character experiences throughout the entire story is horrifying. It wasn't that way in Game of Thrones. Meh. The story is definitely interesting, and the characters are great and varied-- I just can't handle the nonsensical destruction rampant throughout the books. (Arya and Brienne have been consistently my favorite story lines  :) )

 

Another little thing I don't like is the constant character thought narration that became prevalent in the later books. That's just style, though.

 

Ah well. Still looking forward to the next one, hah.

[Werthead]

I think AFFC attempts to do something very interesting, which is that, in the middle of a big epic fantasy series, it calls a time-out to show the consequences of characters' actions, the devastation of hundreds of thousands of lives, the plunging of the Riverlands and Westerlands into famine because of the disruption of two years' worth of harvests (devastating anyway, but with winter descending it's even worse) and to generally show that everything is screwed up.

 

Given that epic fantasy is often accused of whitewashing the nastier side of life in a pre-technological civilisation and simply has good and bad guys duking it out without any real consequences on the little people. GRRM showing this is not the case, and also taking the time to show some of the common folk of the Seven Kingdoms (earlier books were criticised for being too noble-centric), is thematically very interesting.

 

Of course, it's also a very fair point that doing this in a series where a new book comes out every year or two years could be a good idea, but in one where a new book comes out every five years and the major storylines have to take a back seat to it is maybe not quite such a good move ;) I enjoyed AFFC but I can certainly see that complaint as being quite valid.

[SirTownsend]

Ok first off sorry if I may be interrupting anything, but i didn't want to read anything in case of spoilers...but I do have a question.

 

Ok I just started the first book, love it so far, but I'm confused about the whole war thing that went on before the book begins, the one about King Robert and Eddard and the Dragon family. Trident I think is the name(sorry I don't have the book at hand)  I'm just confused about what all went on in that, because it keeps mentioning it, but I don't really know the story.

[shinerfan]

Martin fills in the gaps gradually. Four books in we have a pretty good understanding of how and why it happened but the biggest mystery still lingers. There's really no way to get you up to date without playing the spoiler, but it eventually all makes sense. I will tell you that Martin loves misdirection; certain events in King Robert's Rebellion are seen very differently by different characters. (Also, the Hedge Knight stories reveal a great deal about the history of the seven kingdoms as well.)

[Kadere]

Basically the Targaryen family ruled the Seven Kingdoms, lead by Mad King Aerys. King Aerys's eldest son was Prince Rhaegar who was married to Elia Martell. Tywin Lannister was originally King Aerys Hand, but retired from that position after an argument. Tywin was eventually replaced by Rossart the alchemist, Aery's last Hand. Jaime Lannister, Tywin's son, became a member of Aery's Kingsgaurd.

 

Robert Baratheon was friends with Eddard Stark, and in love with his sister Lyanna Stark. Something happened that you'll discover more of as the book goes on. When the thing that happened that I can't spoil took place, Brandon Stark, Eddard's brother, threatened to kill Prince Rhaegar. King Aerys then called upon Rickard Stark (Brandon, Eddard, and Lyanna's father) to answer for his son. Brandon rode back to King's Landing where he was captured by King Aerys. Aerys then had Rossart torture them both to death.

 

Now with Brandon and Rickard killed Robert and Eddard rallied the North and the Stormlands in what became known as "Robert's Rebellion." At the Battle of the Trident, Robert killed Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

Tywin Lannister then took his host to King's Landing and asked for entry. Aerys believed that Tywin was on his side because he had Jaime close to him and could kill Jaime if Tywin stepped out of line. Unfortunately for King Aerys Jaime killed him instead, along with Rossart. This is when Eddard comes into the Throne room and finds Jamie sitting on the Iron Throne.

 

During the sacking of King's Landing Elia Martell and her children are both killed. However King Aerys second son, Viserys III, and his wife, Rhaella Targaryen, are smuggled out of King's Landing before it's sacked. On the journey to Braavos Rhaella gives birth to Daenerys and dies.

 

Robert arrives and is named King of the Seven Kingdoms, and Eddard rides south to the Tower of Joy to try and rescue Lyanna who had been kidnapped and held prisoner there by the Targaryen's. When Eddard finds her she's not well enough to leave and Eddard makes a promise to her before she dies.

 

Afterwards Robert was married to Jaime's sister Cersei Lannister, and Eddard married Catelyn Tully in place of his brother, Brandon, her original betrothed.

 

That, in as much of a nut shell as I can make it, is what you need to know, or will find out over the course of the rest of the book. There's more too it, but that stuff comes latter. This is without future spoilers.

 

 

[Werthead]

Ok I just started the first book, love it so far, but I'm confused about the whole war thing that went on before the book begins, the one about King Robert and Eddard and the Dragon family. Trident I think is the name(sorry I don't have the book at hand)  I'm just confused about what all went on in that, because it keeps mentioning it, but I don't really know the story.

 

Kadere' assessment is correct.

 

King Aerys II Targaryen was King of the Seven Kingdoms but was also mad and cruel and increasingly tyrannical. He'd already offended many of the lords of the realm and seriously offended Lord Tywin Lannister, formerly his Hand and one of his closest allies, when he broke a promise to marry his son Prince Rhaegar to Tywin's daughter Cersei to marry him instead to Elia Martell of Dorne, and by making Tywin's son Jaime a member of the Kingsguard. As a Kingsguard, Jaime could not inhereit lands or titles, meaning that Tywin's deformed, dwarfish son Tyrion (whom Tywin despised) became his heir instead, to Tywin's fury.

 

Some years later, Aerys' son Rhaegar either kidnapped or ran off with Lyanna Stark (depending on who you believe), infuriating her brother Brandon, father Rickard and her betrothed, Robert Baratheon. Brandon, Rickard and a number of retainers, including Ebert Arryn, were killed for demanding that Rhaegar be brought to justice for his crime, and Aerys demanded that their heirs, fathers and brothers swear loyalty to prove that they were loyal. At this point Eddard Stark, now Lord of the North, raised his banners in rebellion, as did Jon Arryn (Ebert Arryn's uncle), Lord of the Vale of Arryn and Robert Baratheon, Lord of the Stormlands. They convinced Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun and Lord of the Riverlands, to join the rebellion by having Jon and Eddard marry his daughters, Lysa and Catelyn, and the result was a full-blown civil war.

 

In this war, the Starks, Arryns, Tullys and Baratheons were allied together in rebellion. The Tyrells (Lords of the Reach) remained loyal to the Targaryens. The Martells (the Princes of Dorne) were offended by the insult done to them by Rhaegar taking another woman as consort over his wife, Princess Elia Martell, but also sent troops to help the Targaryens, as Aerys made it clear that he would treat Elia as a hostage otherwise. The Greyjoys of the Iron Islands played no role in the war, remaining neutral. The Lannisters of the Westerlands also remained aloof, Tywin having been insulted too many times by Aerys but he was also not willing to join the rebels just yet. Between the two sides, the rebels had a slight technical edge in numbers, but in practice the Targaryens had slightly more, because many of the river and storm lords were divided between following their sworn lords or the King.

 

At the Battle of the Trident, Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaryen in battle, but took a wound in the process. Eddard led the army on to King's Landing, to find that the Lannisters had shown up, offered to ally with Aerys, and then betrayed him, sacking the city, killing Princess Elia and her children whilst Jaime Lannister had already executed the Mad King. After King's Landing was taken, Eddard rode on to convince the Tyrells (besieging Robert's castle at Storm's End, held by his brother Stannis) to surrender, and then to find his sister Lyanna. Lyanna had unfortunately died due to an illness (or so it was said), leaving Robert free to marry Cersei Lannister and shore up the support for his crown. Robert claimed the Iron Throne because his grandfather had been married to a daughter of King Maekar Targaryen, thus giving him a reasonable claim to the throne by blood.

[shinerfan]

I still say Tywin's insistence that Tyrion would never be Lord of Casterly Rock has more to it than just his being a dwarf. Come 'on, he has silvery white hair and loves dragons.

[alligator]

GAAAAAAAAAHHH. My favorite character just died. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Why would an author spend such time developing various characters just to have half of them die before the story is even close to over?

[Kadere]

GAAAAAAAAAHHH. My favorite character just died. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Why would an author spend such time developing various characters just to have half of them die before the story is even close to over?

 

You're going to have to help me, GRRM kills lots of people. Which character? Or at least which book? Chapter? Anything?

[Anoxanmore]

GAAAAAAAAAHHH. My favorite character just died. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Why would an author spend such time developing various characters just to have half of them die before the story is even close to over?

 

You're going to have to help me, GRRM kills lots of people. Which character? Or at least which book? Chapter? Anything?

Bad idea is still bad.. :P

 

He does kill off too many decent characters.

[alligator]

GAAAAAAAAAHHH. My favorite character just died. Really? REALLY?!?!?! Why would an author spend such time developing various characters just to have half of them die before the story is even close to over?

 

You're going to have to help me, GRRM kills lots of people. Which character? Or at least which book? Chapter? Anything?

 

Brienne  >:( !

Of course, sometimes characters don't stay dead/ actually die, so maybe she's still there. But really.

[Anoxanmore]

We won't know until the sixth book.. probably.

[mb]

I also was upset about Brienne's death; partly because who did it, partly because the reasons they gave before doing it.

 

Though George Martin probably has reasons for having the death happen.

One reason I could think of is to prevent her from finding either Stark girl.

 

There seems a slight chance of she becoming resurrected since the Thoros seems unwilling to do so.

The most likely person to attempt resurrecting her might be Gendry.

 

[Werthead]

Or she's not dead. She shouted a word, and then in Book 5 or Book 6* the BwB cut her down at Cat's order. The word she says might be, "Arya!", since Brienne has discovered that Arya isn't dead, or "Jaime!", since she might have changed her mind and agreed to go kill him as Cat demanded.

 

* Probably Book 6. GRRM is debating at the moment including some material written for Book 6 to resolve the AFFC cliffhangers in ADWD to tide people over until Book 6 comes out.

[alligator]

That's what I was thinking, there's no real proof that she actually died, just that she was about to. We were supposed to believe Bran and Rickon died, too, and kind of Arya ("then she felt an ax hit her in the head!") (though that one wasn't very convincing, imo).

Meh.