White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[singogreatest360]

What I'm thinking about is what is she gonna do with the King of Illian Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar?? How is she gonna handle that considering her ignorance of Rand's action/motives

[SinisterDeath]

I'd like to think she's grown enough that she's not going to screw up her dealings with Rand, but that "...it's true enough to let stand."

 

Your looking at that comment though, completely OUT of context.

Face value if you will.

 

Lets assume your a guy.

Lets apply some random sexism from daily life into it.

 

Blonde Women = Dumb.

Women who dress scantaly, want you too look at them.

ect

 

Obviously not true. (Except for maybe the 2nd one... Thats sometimes true, course not all will admit that)

Those are mild compared to other sexism out there.

But you reverse the tables, in this Universe where men, specially those who can channel are Not to be trusted? and its like being a white guy in a black panther meeting citing a black joke?

 

Are the people in Randland sexist? Damnright.

But all things considered, How can "egwene" Trust rand, specially after all he has done (that she doesn't know about)? They've only 'heard' rumors that the taint is cleansed from Sadain, but to them, wheres the proof? They have reason to believ men are going to go insane, and Rand with them. And they 'need' him to save the world. So if that means trying to lead an insane man across a tight rope, so be it.

 

Its not as 'black and white' as her statement makes it sound.

And at least Egwene, unlike 'others' of the Aes Sedia, actually want to 'talk with', instead of 'talk' and be 'obyed'.

Egwene really can't trust rand, Specially since right now (well prior to the very ending) he don't trust any aes sedia as far as he can throw them without the power.

If the person yoru talking to doesn't trust you, how can you trust them?

 

+ Look at the womens circle in 2 rivers when it comes to Men. You really only have to look that far to see how she came to her conclusions.

Course, the guys from the 2 rivers will tell you that the men are really in control.

[Mr. Micawber]

Ah, the Two Rivers' Village Council.

 

Proving since the Fall of Manetheren that you don't need to be among the great and good to be really flaming stupid.

[sheikh chilli]

Egwene is a legend already in my eyes. Seriously the baddest Aes sedai this side of the world. Only Moiraine and verin rank above her in terms of accomplishments. She's is equal to cadsuane right now.

 

 

I giggled in glee when she pimp slapped elaida with the 'dark one is too embarrassed' line. Actually all the pimp slappings from adelorna to gawyn to the black ajah hunters were neatly given. And ofcourse her super destruction mode against the seanchan was awesome. Took me back to one of my fave epic moments at the end of LOC. I already liked egwene after KOD but after reading this book all i can say is Hot Damn.

 

My favourite character amongst the women after moriaine and min.

 

 

 

and finally those who are annoyed by the 'lets stand' comment seriously need to read in context. It's a comment about the present not the future.

[µ231282083275]

What I'm thinking about is what is she gonna do with the King of Illian Mattin Stepaneos den Balgar??

 

she should help him get rasied to the high blood obviously

 

Service.  That's what being an Aes Sedai is supposed to mean.  They're supposed to be servants not masters.

 

i think she does believe this - i thought that was the point of her embrace of three oaths and the history and legacy of the aes sedai.  but she believes that what she serves is the greater good rather than rand, specifically.  i mean she is p arrogant and most of the books are predicated on the inability of powerful people to collaborate effectively but she's p much earned it.  more, in some ways, than rand has.  i mean if that dude gets in a jam he has the pattern rearranging itself to fix things for him.  

 

in terms of the "let stand" comment i was wondering if it was hinting at the eventual integration of the two towers - seems like a logical step of egwene to take post-cleansing and given her interest in seeing everyone with the ability to touch the source tied to the tower in some way

[Eelfinn Lord]

Egwene is awesome. Period.

[trench]

What of Eladia's (Suffa's) Black Tower fortelling? In it Rand would stand before the amyrilin and know her anger.

 

I think this indicates that Egwene and Rand will have a bit of a face off still. Hopefully Rand is in a better head space now and can get Egwene to understand he is in control now and needs advice not guidance. I hope Egwene handles Rand better now and doesn't try bullying him like Nynaeve bullying Cenn Buie. Rand definetly needs a talking to. But if she approachs him as a friend and not the Amyrilin seat then this meeting may go alright if not then it may set them back.

[JenniferL]

Egwene absolutely believes in the ideals of the WT. That's why she bitched out all the Sitters for allowing their petty grievances to divide the Ajahs that way. She doesn't have any tolerance for Aes Sedai politicking when the world is ending. It's going to be like the counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church. The nonsense is going to stop.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Egwene absolutely believes in the ideals of the WT. That's why she bitched out all the Sitters for allowing their petty grievances to divide the Ajahs that way. She doesn't have any tolerance for Aes Sedai politicking when the world is ending. It's going to be like the counter-Reformation in the Catholic Church. The nonsense is going to stop.

 

Yup.  But for too many wrong reasons and not enough right ones.

[JenniferL]

I'm interested to see why you think her reasons are wrong. My interpretation of the text indicates that she wants a strong, united White Tower, not for the sake of personal power or anything, but because she truly believes that a strong, united Tower is a force for good in the world and will be Rand's strongest ally against the Dark One.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think you're right about her beliefs.

 

Doesn't mean that she goes far enough in her thinking.  She's still all about the Tower.  All about restoring the status quo for the Aes Sedai.

 

The Aes Sedai, and their way of looking at themselves and the world, and how they interact with the world is a major part of what's wrong with the world. They manipulate everyone and everything.  They rule from behind every throne.  As I've stated before, the Aes Sedai place in society is to serve, not to rule.

 

A strong, united Tower that seeks to do nothing more than resume it's past method of operation is a bigger problem than it is an asset.  The Oaths and all of the ways in which they scheme and struggle to work around them are a major reason for why they treat the world as they do.  Until that bunch of very overage children grows up enough to operate ethically and responsibly without those steenking Oaths, the world and the Last Battle are still screwed.

[richnewton82]

.

[Dorkfiend]

 

Monosyllabalic grunt.

[Ashamandragoran]

can we estimate who suffered heavier losses in the Seanchan attack on the WT?

 

I was getting the feeling that Egwene made pay dearly as was her purpose.

 

might this be the reality check Tuon needs to make peace with Rand?

 

Also, I know this isn't the favorite scene thread, but Egwene telling Elaida off in front the sitters was priceless

 

What do you guys think of the next mistress of novices? I think if Sharina is raised soon, she'd make a great candidate

[richnewton82]

.

[Ashamandragoran]

So a chained AS can't be used as a weapon? I thought that wasn't true because it's the suldam who is actually in control

[Thorn]

ya sharina would be best for the job

 

I think the Seanchan lost dearly. They nabbed something like 2 dozen Aes Sedai but I would think they lost that number or more in damane. They also lost the Suldam, fist of heavens, bloodknives, and a good percentage of their flying creatures. That's a heavy loss especially because the Return is now all that's left of Seanchan. They don't have anymore stuff to pull from Seanchan. Every flying beast they lose is 1 they cannot replace. Their only major gain is travelling. getting Aes Sedai at the cost of damane is a loss on a 1:1 scale because of the 3 oaths and you're losing a trained weapon. Traveling is huge though.

 

Yeah, I sat down and worked through the book and tried to calculate exactly what they lost.

 

They sent:

At least eighty to 100 to'raken as per page 305 (perhaps "hundreds" as per page 559)

Five Bloodknives

200 Fists of Heaven soldiers

(fifty?) Damane pairs

 

lost:

 

At least 12 to'raken

more than thirty raken (which may include the to'raken)

At least ten damane captured

Unknown number more damane killed

 

Gained:

Forty untrained damane of which two dozen cannot be used as weapons

Travelling (as soon as they break Elaida, which probably won't take long).

 

On the whole, it was probably a loss for the Seanchan in terms of gain/loss ratio, since the damane they gained aren't going to be as valuable as the ones they lost, but definitely a win once they get Travelling (and whatever other special weaves Elaida knows that the Seanchan don't).

[Lambada]

So a chained AS can't be used as a weapon? I thought that wasn't true because it's the suldam who is actually in control

Nope.

Provided they actually have taken the three oaths and adhere to them they will only be able to use the power against those who they *believe* to be shadowspawn, darkfriends, or when they believe they have no other option to save their own life.

Of course, I don't think the Seanchan know about the loophole of subjective belief.

[JenniferL]

I've always thought it was possible for an Aes Sedai damane to use the Power as a weapon if she thought the sul'dam would kill her otherwise.

[Thorn]

I've always thought it was possible for an Aes Sedai damane to use the Power as a weapon if she thought the sul'dam would kill her otherwise.

 

I'm not sure. That's not really using it "in defense of your own life" -- the person being attacked with the power isn't the person the AS would be defending against.

 

In that situation, I would expect that the Oath would allow the AS to use the power as a weapon against the damane compelling her (although the collar itself wouldn't allow that), but not against the non-aggressive third party.

 

It's a fine line there and maybe it would be allowable but I'm not 100% certain it would be.

[Lambada]

I've always thought it was possible for an Aes Sedai damane to use the Power as a weapon if she thought the sul'dam would kill her otherwise.

 

I'm not sure. That's not really using it "in defense of your own life" -- the person being attacked with the power isn't the person the AS would be defending against.

 

In that situation, I would expect that the Oath would allow the AS to use the power as a weapon against the damane compelling her (although the collar itself wouldn't allow that), but not against the non-aggressive third party.

 

It's a fine line there and maybe it would be allowable but I'm not 100% certain it would be.

How is that not using it in defense of your own life? If a sul'dam threatened to kill an Aes Sedai damane then, provided you believed it to be true, would be in defense of your own life and thus permitted by the three oaths (provided all other courses had failed e.g. talking)

[JenniferL]

The sul'dam could also put you in a threatening situation, like a battle and you'd have to channel to survive.

[Ashamandragoran]

The more I think about it, the more I think it is not a loss for the Seanchan and maybe even a win simply because of Travelling. Who needs raken with Travelling?

 

Their main loss is the damane

 

Another interesting thought is that its funny that despite the WT being under seige, they were so poorly prepared for an attack. Any amateur military organization would some protocols in place for an assault/invasion and drills to practice them. As Alderona was thinking, the Green "battle" ajah was really disappointing in that battle

[Bob T Dwarf]

The sul'dam could also put you in a threatening situation, like a battle and you'd have to channel to survive.

 

In the first instance, a damane cannot channel against her sul'dam, and it's her sul'dam who is threatening her.

 

In the second instance, that's defensive channeling.  They can preserve their own life, that of another sister, or their Warder.  But, unless the enemy is Shadowspawn, Darkfriends or one of the Forsaken, they cannot channel offensively.

[Thorn]

The sul'dam could also put you in a threatening situation, like a battle and you'd have to channel to survive.

 

*That* I think could potentially work. They could also certainly learn all sorts of weapon weaves.