White Tower Reunification Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[coteaz]

All of those are very valid, I'm more inclined to agree with number 4 though, because of when fain took the dagger from the tower, there was an alarm ward around that room and/or the door into the room, which resulted in the novice coming to check what set it off.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Given how desperate they all were for some *angreal, any *angreal, it still doesn't explain why Mesaana didn't just break-in, anyway.  She could kill whoever responded to an alarm and still grab everything and shovel it through a gateway and get away herself.

 

So the WT knows that their stash has been stolen.  So what?  Aint nothing they can do about it if there are only alarm wards on the room.  If all there is is alarm wards, Mesaana's behavior here is simply inexplicable.

[Thorn]

All of those are very valid, I'm more inclined to agree with number 4 though, because of when fain took the dagger from the tower, there was an alarm ward around that room and/or the door into the room, which resulted in the novice coming to check what set it off.

 

That's a great catch -- I'd forgotten about that moment. Based on that, I think you're right, and #4 is the most likely explanation. Mesaana's conduct can be explained by "I'll pick one up whenever I want it" + "being caught with it would be a giveaway" esp. since the contents of that storeroom were regularly inventoried. As to why other Forsaken didn't gate in, that's a good question. Perhaps they didn't want to interfere with Mesaana's "domain," perhaps they werent' sure of the exact location, perhaps they didn't want to risk getting caught by a circle of 13.

[coteaz]

The thing is the other forsaken might think that mesaana might have woven wards herself, protecting them from the other forsaken, she probably hasn't but the forsaken might THINK she has, thus keeping them away, and she may have simply decided that being undercover, she had no need of an Angreal, however had she needed one, it would not be difficult to get.

[Mcpatrick]

Is it just me or has the most obvious and most likely explanation been missed?

 

Mesaana lied to the other forsaken. (about the angreal)

 

 

 

 

[havoc110]

Chalk up another epic failure for Dark.  A conservative estimate of 1 Forsaken and about 30 BA in the WT during the attack.  An Amyrlin under Fain's evil influence, and who emerges victorious, a forkrooted Egwene?

The BA all but eliminated?  Classic.

 

Typical RJ.  Dark snatches defeat from the jaws of victory yet again.

 

Let me be so bold as to predict that Mesaana will be revealed next book, then abruptly killed by Moridin or SH or hey maybe even Dem.  Her uselessness has come to an end.

 

[havoc110]

Is it just me or has the most obvious and most likely explanation been missed?

 

Mesaana lied to the other forsaken.

 

What, you mean like she wasn't in the Tower and never has been?  She lounging by the pool at some resort in Shara?  Sounds like the smartest Forsaken move yet...

[havoc110]

Is it just me or has the most obvious and most likely explanation been missed?

 

Mesaana lied to the other forsaken. (about the angreal)

 

 

I liked your pre-edit idea better.

[Clone Warder]

Egwene could possibly find Mesaana by looking for the Angreal given to her by Sheraim using need in Tel’aran’rhiod.

By finding out which room the Angreal are held in could point the finger at a specific Aes Sedai.

Unless Mesaana has taken the Angreal to some other location away from everyone leading to a dead end

[havoc110]

Egwene could possibly find Mesaana by looking for the Angreal given to her by Sheraim using need in Tel’aran’rhiod.

By finding out which room the Angreal are held in could point the finger at a specific Aes Sedai.

Unless Mesaana has taken the Angreal to some other location away from everyone leading to a dead end

 

Yeah, she could, but why bother?  Aside from stepping up the BA recruitment campaign, and maybe arranging some Reds to walk into a Trap at the BT, what has she ever accomplished?

[coteaz]

Umm, she broke the tower.

[sheikh chilli]

yes mesaane broke the tower.......... only to be reunited once again.

 

 

another useless forsaken who has seen her grand plan come to nothing in the end. So what's new though?

 

 

moridin should really off her for good

[Bob T Dwarf]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

[Declan]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

 

you could look at it this way. she also bought ALOT of time for the DO to get stronger and not be bothered with a unified White Tower for like a year or more. Having one of your greatest enemies out of service for a year is a big help. BIG help. Mesaana just needs to "get outta Dodge" now.

[havoc110]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

 

you could look at it this way. she also bought ALOT of time for the DO to get stronger and not be bothered with a unified White Tower for like a year or more. Having one of your greatest enemies out of service for a year is a big help. BIG help. Mesaana just needs to "get outta Dodge" now.

 

But the AS weren't fighting the DO either.  I don't think half of them believed in the BA, the DO, or the forsaken.  The just wanted to control stuff, and squash men who channel.  If not for the BA, what purpose would the WT serve?  Not very much, IMO.

[BA Baraccus]

I've been lurking for years now.  This is also my first post.  I just wanted to bring to light some information concerning the wards on the tower storerooms.

 

Way back when Liandrin fled the tower with her group of BA sisters she took a bunch of Ter'angreal if I remember right.  The dreaming ones and the balefire rod among others.  I think I remember either the BA group complaining or another sister being thankful that they were not able to gain access to certain other storerooms and more powerful objects of the power due to the wards.

 

I think this would mean that the wards were not alarms but actual physical barriers.  I know they wouldn't want to alarm anyone of their activities but they had already or were about to commit murder for their escape.  I don't think a few more bodies would have been too much of a sacrifice for 13 BA to get their hands on that sort of power. 

 

It seemed like they lacked the ability to nullify the wards and gain access to the heavily guarded storerooms. 

 

This seems to contradict Fain's pursuit of the knife in the lower levels of the Tower.  There he seemed to have be stopped after setting off a silent alarm of some sort.

 

This also begs the question as to why certain places were warded and others were not if all angreal are so valued.

 

Maybe someone with the texts in front of them or a sharper memory can comment. 

[AvroChris]

I've been lurking for years now.  This is also my first post.  I just wanted to bring to light some information concerning the wards on the tower storerooms.

 

Way back when Liandrin fled the tower with her group of BA sisters she took a bunch of Ter'angreal if I remember right.  The dreaming ones and the balefire rod among others.  I think I remember either the BA group complaining or another sister being thankful that they were not able to gain access to certain other storerooms and more powerful objects of the power due to the wards.

 

I think this would mean that the wards were not alarms but actual physical barriers.  I know they wouldn't want to alarm anyone of their activities but they had already or were about to commit murder for their escape.  I don't think a few more bodies would have been too much of a sacrifice for 13 BA to get their hands on that sort of power. 

 

It seemed like they lacked the ability to nullify the wards and gain access to the heavily guarded storerooms. 

 

This seems to contradict Fain's pursuit of the knife in the lower levels of the Tower.  There he seemed to have be stopped after setting off a silent alarm of some sort.

 

This also begs the question as to why certain places were warded and others were not if all angreal are so valued.

 

Maybe someone with the texts in front of them or a sharper memory can comment. 

 

I don't think the dagger was in the angreal storerooms - not all that many Aes Sedia would have actually known about it (apart from all the Black Ajah), so a more low key ward in a minor storeroom might be appropriate. I also got the impression from Alviarin that they didn't think anyone in their right mind would want it, knowing what it is. So we have different levels of security based on importance and secrecy.

[Thorn]

Possibility:

 

Perhaps the wards on that storeroom were keyed in some fashion to "The Amyrlin." I don't see how, but I'm not an Aes Sedai; maybe it's possible.

[Declan]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

 

you could look at it this way. she also bought ALOT of time for the DO to get stronger and not be bothered with a unified White Tower for like a year or more. Having one of your greatest enemies out of service for a year is a big help. BIG help. Mesaana just needs to "get outta Dodge" now.

 

But the AS weren't fighting the DO either.  I don't think half of them believed in the BA, the DO, or the forsaken.  The just wanted to control stuff, and squash men who channel.  If not for the BA, what purpose would the WT serve?  Not very much, IMO.

 

i dont think your argument of "half the AS dont believe in the DO or forsaken" has any weight to it. We know Elaida was preparing for the LB just in the wrong way. the VERY wrong way. They were distracted by each other for the most part. If Siuan had stayed in power through this whole thing i am pretty sure that the WT would have taken steps in fighting the DO and Forsaken. or if Egwene had been accepted immediately.

[coteaz]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

 

yes that is true, but now the BA will most likely be one big fighting force, so there is a large force, of evil sisters, walking around that can do pretty much what they want, all they need is to be taught various new weaves from the forsaken, and they would be able do alot of dmg.

[Makarra]

Umm, she broke the tower.

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

 

A net loss for Team Dark.

 

yes that is true, but now the BA will most likely be one big fighting force, so there is a large force, of evil sisters, walking around that can do pretty much what they want, all they need is to be taught various new weaves from the forsaken, and they would be able do alot of dmg.

 

Nah, because as has been proved time and time again, the various Darkfriends are less than cooperative amongst each other, always jockeying, always trying to outdo each other. A fighting force? Yes. Hinted at in past books? Oh yes. But a big cohesive match to a Tower that is now reunified? Probably not.

[coteaz]

As far as we have seen it is unified, but it would be pretty stupid on mesaana's part if something wasn't in play in case the tower was unified. Seeing as mesaana has had a lack of judgment before i wont be surprised to find out nothing was in play.

[stormcrow]

Egwene was a bit silly in asking the potential dark sisters whether they were "darkfriends". Lanfear said darkfriends were those (paraphrase) "foolish followers of Ishamael, etc". None of the Forsaken would see themselves as darkfriends, so that question on the oath rod is useless in finding Mesaana.

 

Otherwise Mesaana, like every other Forsaken bar Moridin and Demandred, has failed horribly. The breaking of the WT and the infighting was all caused by Fain. Fain alone has done more in advancing the agenda of the shadow than all of the others put together.

[coteaz]

As far as we know, it was mesaana that instigated the breaking, which had those aes sedai distracted for 8 books.

[Mr Ares]

yes mesaane broke the tower.......... only to be reunited once again.

 

another useless forsaken who has seen her grand plan come to nothing in the end. So what's new though?

Everything ends. If Rand's empire falls apart before the end of the series, might as well ask what Rand achieved. "He united the world to face TG." "They're not united any more, are they? Rand is completely useless."

 

A very temporary thing that had the net effect of exposing the BA leading to a large number of them being executed without ever having accomplished anything useful for the DO.

No. The breaking of the Tower was temporary, but it didn't expose the BA. Verin did that (the BA hunters were also not a result of the split, but of orders given by Elaida to find out if Alviarin was engaging in treasonous correspondence with the DR). In fact, the Tower split made it easier for most of the BA to make good their escape.

 

Egwene was a bit silly in asking the potential dark sisters whether they were "darkfriends". Lanfear said darkfriends were those (paraphrase) "foolish followers of Ishamael, etc". None of the Forsaken would see themselves as darkfriends, so that question on the oath rod is useless in finding Mesaana.

So what should they have said then? I am not Messana? Problem is, the BA slips through your grasp like that.

 

Otherwise Mesaana, like every other Forsaken bar Moridin and Demandred, has failed horribly. The breaking of the WT and the infighting was all caused by Fain. Fain alone has done more in advancing the agenda of the shadow than all of the others put together.

The breaking in the Tower happened in book 4, Fain only came to the WT in book 5, so your point makes no sense at all (we know Mesaana was in place in book 3). We don't know how serious Fain's effect on Elaida was, how much of it was just herself. And Graendal succeeded in reducing Arad Doman to chaos, Semi reduced Seanchan to chaos, Asmo helped cause the breaking between the Shaido and the other Aiel clans, which went from book 4-11, Andor, as far as we know, has not yet wholly recovered from what Rahvin did to it.