Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[Aroura]

First time poster, long time reader.

 

Although I did not read all 86 pages of this thread, I did peruse quite a bit of it. 

I didn't really noticed much discussion about Rand's Epiphany itself, aside from some saying it was awesome and about time, but I may have missed it.

 

I very much enjoyed the rest of the book, especially Egwene's story line and Verin's AWESOME reveal.  However, I feel that Rands final epiphany was really kind of a let down though. Actually, to me, it was a MAJOR let down.

 

I think a lot of people were assuming the thing Cadsuane was supposed to teach him was this, the laughter and tears thing.  Ok, so we were wrong, that's fine.  Yet, who did teach him?  It was LTT's epiphany, not even Rands! And then 2 sentences later it is made quite clear that LTT isn't even really there, it was Rand all the time.  This to me is a giant problem to me.  And the Author has now made it clear that it never will be made clear.  haha

 

How precisely did he really come to this grand realization?  He sat on the mountain and thought real hard, and some memories of past lives just suddenly come to him out of the blue, and he's like "FACESLAP", it's all about the love man!  We all get a chance to love! (yes, there is some hippy sarcasm there).

 

Although there are a great many people in this series who love him, family friends and lovers, it was not through any interaction or experience (good or bad) with any of these people that taught him this oh so important lesson (just one small comment/memory from Tam).  It was just, blammo, oh duh! It's LOVE!  To be honest, I feel there was a bit of "the creator did it" feeling to this portion of the book.  The those memories of infinite past lives (the good parts, love hope joy) just come to him, and then the sunlight coming through the gap in the clouds, smacked very much of the creator taking a direct hand and giving Rand a little nudge.

 

And that is VERY much against how everything in WoT works. Hasn't it been stated over and over that the creator does not/will not do that?

 

Perhaps I'm reading it all wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am.  The whole scene, something that has been building and building for 10+ books and too many years to count, it just seemed like such a cop-out way of dealing with the issue.

 

Anyway, I love Wot a great deal, I've invested more time in this series than any other I've read.  and I just felt so....let down.  Did anyone else feel this at all?

[The Fisher King]

Mr Ares, I have a question for you:

 

Is a mind that breaks down the walls between lives the sign of an amazingly strong and potent mind - or the sign of an extremely broken one?

 

 

Fish

[mossman87]

First time poster, long time reader.

 

Although I did not read all 86 pages of this thread, I did peruse quite a bit of it. 

I didn't really noticed much discussion about Rand's Epiphany itself, aside from some saying it was awesome and about time, but I may have missed it.

 

I very much enjoyed the rest of the book, especially Egwene's story line and Verin's AWESOME reveal.  However, I feel that Rands final epiphany was really kind of a let down though. Actually, to me, it was a MAJOR let down.

 

I think a lot of people were assuming the thing Cadsuane was supposed to teach him was this, the laughter and tears thing.  Ok, so we were wrong, that's fine.  Yet, who did teach him?  It was LTT's epiphany, not even Rands! And then 2 sentences later it is made quite clear that LTT isn't even really there, it was Rand all the time.  This to me is a giant problem to me.  And the Author has now made it clear that it never will be made clear.  haha

 

How precisely did he really come to this grand realization?  He sat on the mountain and thought real hard, and some memories of past lives just suddenly come to him out of the blue, and he's like "FACESLAP", it's all about the love man!  We all get a chance to love! (yes, there is some hippy sarcasm there).

 

Although there are a great many people in this series who love him, family friends and lovers, it was not through any interaction or experience (good or bad) with any of these people that taught him this oh so important lesson (just one small comment/memory from Tam).  It was just, blammo, oh duh! It's LOVE!  To be honest, I feel there was a bit of "the creator did it" feeling to this portion of the book.  The those memories of infinite past lives (the good parts, love hope joy) just come to him, and then the sunlight coming through the gap in the clouds, smacked very much of the creator taking a direct hand and giving Rand a little nudge.

 

And that is VERY much against how everything in WoT works. Hasn't it been stated over and over that the creator does not/will not do that?

 

Perhaps I'm reading it all wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am.  The whole scene, something that has been building and building for 10+ books and too many years to count, it just seemed like such a cop-out way of dealing with the issue.

 

Anyway, I love Wot a great deal, I've invested more time in this series than any other I've read.  and I just felt so....let down.  Did anyone else feel this at all?

 

Brandon has said Cadsuane isn't done yet in teaching Rand and the asha'man laughter and tears, so there's more to come.

 

http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=58170#74180

Q. Has Cadsuane met Min's vision regarding the lesson she must teach Rand and the Asha'man, which they won't like one bit?

A. Part of it.

 

As for the Dragonmount moment, I have to agree that it did seem a little.. direct, but apparently it was something called a Pattern Level Event:

 

This quote is awful, but it's all we got:

 

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2714

Brandon: I do not believe the destruction of a sa’angreal would be the type of event that you would be able to notice. It is not consistent with what we have seen before.

Matt: Jordan talked about Pattern Level Events, or in other words "Effects of the Wheel". This question was asked of him at DragonCon '05. We wanted to know how Rand showed up in the sky above Falme with Ishamael. Theories... [the recording cut off here so Brandon’s answer to my question was lost. I will paraphrase it generally.]

 

I asked him if Rand’s access to the infinite lives while on Dragonmount at the end of The Gathering Storm was the Wheel getting involved directly.

 

He replied as follows, according to my memory, that there was a Pattern Level Event there, but it wasn’t specifically the Wheel giving Rand access to memories his previous lives. Brandon asked for some clarification about how Jordan explained his answer at DragonCon. We were rushed and I could not give him that direct quote, so I was unable to ask more specifically if Rand was seeing the soul’s history of lives lived, or if more generically the Wheel displayed to his mind a series of previous generic lives, like it displayed Rand and Ishamael in the sky above Falme. He did speak briefly about the Wheel not physically “touching” Rand and/or Ishamael, which seemed to be suggestive of his initial response that it didn’t “touch” Rand’s mind to give him access to his own memories. Once again, a more detailed discussion of this subject is worthwhile, especially one recorded.

 

so this doesn't really say anything, just that it wasn't the Creator.

 

But this one clears up what a Pattern Level Event is, I don't want to say dues ex machina, but I can't think of a better way to explain it:

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

So it wasn't the Creator, but it might as well have been.

[Declan]

Mr Ares, I have a question for you:

 

Is a mind that breaks down the walls between lives the sign of an amazingly strong and potent mind - or the sign of an extremely broken one?

 

 

Fish

 

i am obviously not Mr Ares but i wanted to put something out there.

 

You could think of Rand being tied extremely tightly to the pattern. with that he can access his past memories but only since his mind is so broken. almost as if his level of thought or mind was kicked to the next step and gained access to a previous life. a sign of madness but could be used to be genius.

 

sorry for replying to his Q.

[Toss3]

First time poster, long time reader.

 

Although I did not read all 86 pages of this thread, I did peruse quite a bit of it. 

I didn't really noticed much discussion about Rand's Epiphany itself, aside from some saying it was awesome and about time, but I may have missed it.

 

I very much enjoyed the rest of the book, especially Egwene's story line and Verin's AWESOME reveal.  However, I feel that Rands final epiphany was really kind of a let down though. Actually, to me, it was a MAJOR let down.

 

I think a lot of people were assuming the thing Cadsuane was supposed to teach him was this, the laughter and tears thing.  Ok, so we were wrong, that's fine.  Yet, who did teach him?  It was LTT's epiphany, not even Rands! And then 2 sentences later it is made quite clear that LTT isn't even really there, it was Rand all the time.  This to me is a giant problem to me.  And the Author has now made it clear that it never will be made clear.  haha

 

How precisely did he really come to this grand realization?  He sat on the mountain and thought real hard, and some memories of past lives just suddenly come to him out of the blue, and he's like "FACESLAP", it's all about the love man!  We all get a chance to love! (yes, there is some hippy sarcasm there).

 

Although there are a great many people in this series who love him, family friends and lovers, it was not through any interaction or experience (good or bad) with any of these people that taught him this oh so important lesson (just one small comment/memory from Tam).  It was just, blammo, oh duh! It's LOVE!  To be honest, I feel there was a bit of "the creator did it" feeling to this portion of the book.  The those memories of infinite past lives (the good parts, love hope joy) just come to him, and then the sunlight coming through the gap in the clouds, smacked very much of the creator taking a direct hand and giving Rand a little nudge.

 

And that is VERY much against how everything in WoT works. Hasn't it been stated over and over that the creator does not/will not do that?

 

Perhaps I'm reading it all wrong, and feel free to correct me if I am.  The whole scene, something that has been building and building for 10+ books and too many years to count, it just seemed like such a cop-out way of dealing with the issue.

 

Anyway, I love Wot a great deal, I've invested more time in this series than any other I've read.  and I just felt so....let down.  Did anyone else feel this at all?

 

It wasn't just about love it was because of what Tam told him: "It not what you do, it's why you do it."(paraphrasing, but that's the gist of it). Rand has been bullied and forced by the pattern into living his life a certain way and hasn't had the time to ponder on why exactly he does it. Anyone forced to die for everyone else would feel the same way, unless there was a bigger goal driving us.

Throughout the series Rand has been faced with the inability to kill women( due to him killing his former wife Ileyna, just to make sure you hadn't missed that part :D) and on the top of Dragonmount he realizes that he can revive them by letting the wheel keep spinning(everyone is reborn) and thus undo everything he did.

 

It was written in a very clichéd way, but the underlying reasons were all there. Going to be interesting to see how it affects him in the next book.

[The Fisher King]

Thanks, Declan - I like the way you put that.

 

 

Fish

[Aroura]

so this doesn't really say anything, just that it wasn't the Creator.

 

But this one clears up what a Pattern Level Event is, I don't want to say dues ex machina, but I can't think of a better way to explain it:

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

 

So it wasn't the Creator, but it might as well have been.

 

Yes, ok.  I guess because the author says so, it wasn't actually the creator, but like you said, it might as well have been.  And I didn't want to say it either, but dues ex machina is exactly what I was thinking. The ultimate writing cop-out :( 

 

Thanks for your reply though.  I did read that interview earlier, but didn't feel it cleared anything up, just that BS was trying to vindicate this scene with a lot of backhanded explanations.

 

And to Toss3, thanks also for your reply.  Yes, I do understand that it was also about Why, but the why does ultimately come down to love, or at least being able to fix the mistakes of past lives, but again, with love :)  lol

 

I agree the reasons were all there, I just feel that they could have reached the exact same effect on Rand with a more meaningful event than the "duh" moment on top of the mountain, you know?  Something more powerful involving the actual people he cared about, and again, not just a backhanded reference to them.

 

Oh well, it is what it is now.  At least Rand got there, so now he can (hopefully) move on and stop all the self torture.

 

Thanks again for your replies

 

 

[Toss3]

Are you guys forgetting that Mat also has memories from his past lives? Maybe Rand was just experiencing something similar with the madness of the taint making the memories of LTT into a second personality?

[StefanR]

Rand has access to the TP due to Moridin

 

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.

 

Moridin = Death in the old tongue, and Ishmael was referred to as the "Betrayer of Hope"

 

The coincidences are a bit too much to just be that, especially considering RJ and BS both put little hints throughout the series

[Aroura]

Oops, sorry to reply yet again.  I had really only posted this to see if others felt the same as I did, or if I was losing it.  The main reason this scene upset me, and has me worried, is the Last Battle.  Let me try to explain.

When Mr. Jordan wrote the scene with Ishy and Rand in the sky at Falme, and explained it with the Patten Level Event, it was not upsetting because that event was tied to thing actually happening in the book (the battle happening below them).  It was tied to real, actual events in Randland.  Plus, the whole scene had a certain awesome and epic feeling, in the deepest sense of the words.

 

Now we get to one of the climaxes of the story, Rand long long descent into madness, leading him to not only almost commit suicide, but to nearly take the entire world with him. This is a pivotal point in the story, one of the MAIN internal character events that absolutely needed to happen, Rand's Epiphany.  And it is anything but climactic, it is nothing more (to me) than a big forehead slap.  Really.  

 

So my concern is this, are we going to see this particular type of thing, "pattern level Events" (PLES), in the future, and are they going to be used to explain away some of the biggest mysteries yet to come?  For instance, how will Rand seal the bore so that the prison is whole again, not just patched up?  Is it going to be another "the pattern did it"?  Now, I know that Jordan left very detailed notes, and that his wife is familiar with how he wanted the story to proceed, but if he is allowed to use these PLES, then I actually have a real fear for how the finale of the books will feel to me.  I just don't want to see the last battle to fall flat on it's face.

 

Anyway, I'll stop complaining over this scene and move on now.  There is a lot of other great stuff in this book to discuss.  ;D

 

[Aroura]

Are you guys forgetting that Mat also has memories from his past lives? Maybe Rand was just experiencing something similar with the madness of the taint making the memories of LTT into a second personality?

Mat only has access to those memories because of his trip to finnland and his wish to "have these bloody wholes in my memory filled" or something along those lines.  I'm not even sure all those memories are of HIS past lives, cna anyone else confirm that?  Anyway, it doesn't matter, it is completely different than Rand having sudden unexplained access to his past life memories.

 

Sorry, just saying.  :-[

[Calderis]

I'm fairly sure that some of Mat's memories overlap in time periods. We don't really know the extent of the 'finn's abilities, but I strongly doubt that all of these are his past lives. isn't a thread only spun out once per age?

[Rand Skywalker]

I'm fairly sure that some of Mat's memories overlap in time periods. We don't really know the extent of the 'finn's abilities, but I strongly doubt that all of these are his past lives. isn't a thread only spun out once per age?

 

No, Birgitte has lived many times in the 3rd age.

[Toss3]

Are you guys forgetting that Mat also has memories from his past lives? Maybe Rand was just experiencing something similar with the madness of the taint making the memories of LTT into a second personality?

Mat only has access to those memories because of his trip to finnland and his wish to "have these bloody wholes in my memory filled" or something along those lines.  I'm not even sure all those memories are of HIS past lives, cna anyone else confirm that?  Anyway, it doesn't matter, it is completely different than Rand having sudden unexplained access to his past life memories.

 

Sorry, just saying.  :-[

 

Mat had his memories even before he went to finnland, that's why he went there in the first place.

[Sentinel78]

No, Mat had the Old Tongue, and then after taking the dagger was under a periodic possession by Mordeth or at least some Shadar Logoth evil through the dagger.  When Mat is 'cleansed' in Book III, he has gaps in his memories, but no old battle memories.  RJ has stated that the Finns essentially stuffed random memories they had access to into Mat's brain to fulfill the bargain.  Mat's just lucky they made him the uber-general.

[Auld Manriva]

I think some of you are going to be disappointed if you think The Last Battle is a toe to toe between Rand and The DO. I think that will be Rand and Morry. Seems to me what Rand has to do is tear up what LTT did then properly repair what holds the DO outside The Pattern. How does he do this? That's why I keep readin' these books ain't it...

 

Also, deus ex machina, in a classic sense is something that happens with no prior "set-up". An Olympian shows up/is lowered onto a stage in a Greek play to solve the hero's problem with a three toed sloth running amok. A mountain "out of the blue" falls on Snidely Whiplash as he ties "Bela" to the railroad tracks, with no prior mention of a mountain roaming around in the sky.

 

There have been numerous mentions of The Pattern doing things to even the playing field; creating balance if you will. So God "from our hands" or "from the machine" really ain't in it. It won't be out of the blue it's already been done.

 

 

The Wheel of Time is not the Creator, not from what I've heard RJ say in interviews. It's a creation of the Creator. An auto-pilot more or less; And what the DO wishes to destroy in order that "Himself" can run things according to his desires. Which will be the destruction of all order in the universe that encompasses this tale. Circular Time, in contrast to our Linear Time, which makes for "all things happening again as before," or some such philosophical, meta-physical mumbo jumbo.

 

At least that's how I see it.

[Mr Ares]

Is a mind that breaks down the walls between lives the sign of an amazingly strong and potent mind - or the sign of an extremely broken one?

Broken. Those walls are meant to be there. Rand is not LTT. True, there were benefits, but things could have ended up a hell of a lot worse than they did.

 

Are you guys forgetting that Mat also has memories from his past lives? Maybe Rand was just experiencing something similar with the madness of the taint making the memories of LTT into a second personality?

Mat's memories are from the Eelfinn, from people who visited them, not past lives. That was confirmed by RJ.

 

Mat had his memories even before he went to finnland, that's why he went there in the first place.

Mat had one manifestation of a memory that wasn't his. We do not know this was a past life. I'm inclined to put it down to the Old Blood. Mat was strong in it. I can explain at greater (and more tedious) length later, if you're interested.

[Sentinel78]

Mat had one manifestation of a memory that wasn't his. We do not know this was a past life. I'm inclined to put it down to the Old Blood. Mat was strong in it. I can explain at greater (and more tedious) length later, if you're interested.

 

I presume you refer to Mat's 'possession' that occurred when he was being Healed by the Aes Sedai from his connection to the ruby dagger?  I always thought this was a projection from the dagger itself which was basically being 'attacked' by the Healing.  Maybe it was Mordeth, but more likely this 'possession' or voice was whoever actually owned that dagger back in Aridhol, which was then passed onto Mat.  I didn't think this was the Old Blood.  Just my opinion though, I don't know if RJ ever commented on this.

[Rand_al_Dude]

Hi,

 

Just had a theory, about Rand and Ishy I thought I'd share. First time poster, so apologies if this has come up before.

 

I think there's a lot of foreshadowing about Rand actually killing the Dark One rather than just simply sealing him up again. I think this is where the Last Battle will definitely be heading towards as it sort of puts the whole series on a downer, if the DO is just resealed to be dealt with in another age and another 14 books.

 

My theory is that Ishy, or Moridin now. will at least survive til that last battle at Shayol Ghul and will be persuaded to TEAM up with Rand to defeat the DO!

 

My reasoning is such :

 

In the Age of Legends he was obviously known for being a logical thinker and one of the main reasons for his betrayal was that the DO will win eventually, so he might as well side with inevitable winning team. 

A lot of new info in TGS now lends a lot more credibility to this theory (well to me at least!).

In the chapter where Rand meets Moridin in the dream world, Moridin believes it to be impossible to kill the DO, almost laughing at how stupid the idea is when Rand mentions it.  He's not looking for rewards or thrones, but I think just for the constant turning of the wheel and fighting to be over, once and for all. He's aiming towards an 'end to all things', simply because the light can't win as long the DO exists, and he obviously doesn't believe the DO can be killed. He's seemed tired to death of the battle between the light and the DO in the chapter.

 

I think during the last battle if Moridin see a slightest chance that the DO can be killed then he will do a last minute betrayal jobbie on the DO.

 

Any thoughts?

 

[wingedearth]

So how come no one refers to Rand as "Lord of the Morning"? Why does Moridin never appear in Rand's dreams as Ba'alzamon with burning fire in his eyes (though Rand surprised Moridin once)? Why is Moridin never referred to as "Betrayer of Hope"?

 

Would be nice to see some of the old ideas reflected on, for consistency.

[Sentinel78]

This is discussed in great detail in the Moridin thread - FYI.

[wingedearth]

I think some of you are going to be disappointed if you think The Last Battle is a toe to toe between Rand and The DO. I think that will be Rand and Morry.

 

Wouldn't this just be a repeat of scenes from Eye of the World, The Great Hunt, and The Dragon Reborn? Moridin/Ba'alzamon with fire in his eyes yelling, "You can never defeat me, Lews Therin," and then Rand defeating him?

 

In the Age of Legends, when the Aes Sedai bored into the Dark One's prison, the Dark One's own black aura shot into the air.  The DO, in some way, was there personally, not just through Forsaken intermediaries. That's what I'm waiting to see. And the DO released from his prison.

 

I just hope Sanderson doesn't do something at the end like, "The Dark One has been defeated and all the Shadowspawn dead. Rand and Co. broke the world again and turned it into Earth, but the True Source can no longer be channeled, so everyone turns into accountants and stockbrokers and such and the 4th Age is our world." That would suck.

[Sharaman]

What if the TP is actually a manifestation of GLoD? As in it's not simply a mysterious source of power - it is GLoD, borrowing from the Christian Transubstantiation concept. When he wants to, GLoD can manifest as TP.

In that case, LTT's horror would make more sense. Also to some extent, we'd have a better understanding of why GLoD let RaT channel TP - it binds him to the Dark.

(Assuming of course, that it isn't simply the open circuit between Moridin and RaT that allows the access without GLoD being aware of it.)

 

[mossman87]

What if the TP is actually a manifestation of GLoD? As in it's not simply a mysterious source of power - it is GLoD, borrowing from the Christian Transubstantiation concept. When he wants to, GLoD can manifest as TP.

In that case, LTT's horror would make more sense. Also to some extent, we'd have a better understanding of why GLoD let RaT channel TP - it binds him to the Dark.

(Assuming of course, that it isn't simply the open circuit between Moridin and RaT that allows the access without GLoD being aware of it.)

 

 

I believe the True Power is the essence of the DO, yes.

[Echizen]

Thought I'd bring up Rands brief possession of the True Power.

 

I remember Asmodean, when he is tutoring rand mention something about a deeper void, or "taking the void further / void beyond the void"  or something of the sort.

 

I cannot find the exact quote atm, but it seems to me when rand accesses the TP he is stressed to the point where the void "hardens" into what he described as cellendar. From the way Asmodean described it, it seems that most men never reach this second void.

 

Perhaps in this void anyone can have access to the TP. While I agree that his link with Moridin is just as likely a case as a "second void" I prefer the second void theory. It was obvious forshadowing.

 

Third case, is Rands connection with Morridin allowed him to channel the TP, and the second void is a foreshadowing of Rand fighting in the last battle channeling the one power as a whole, a pure sadin/sadair mix, or "Straight from the creator" theory.