Rand's Plotline (spoilers for the entire book)

[tneva82]

Well I have a theory that isn't very popular and that is that the TP is not from the DO.  

 

Why would creator create 2nd power next to OP that is so addictive and so deadly? That once you use it you are(unless you are killed before it) doomed to die from use of it which you can't help due to it's addictive nature?

 

Seems rather cruel thing for TP to create.

[tneva82]

What the hell is wrong with some of you people?! It seems to me that a fairly common theme here among fans is "I am so happy Rand has given up on his 'I am steel' outlook".... This is war, people! The Last War! Rand should be out Balefiring everything he sees! Steel? Cuendillar? Not good enough. He should be plutonium. I really hope Rand is not on the road to being a pansy again. I don't know how much more of that I can take.

 

Last war which isn't won by force. Balefiring everything he sees? You DO realise that will lead to unraveling the pattern and ergo destroying whole universum? Why on earth Rand should try to destroy universum? That's more like what DO wants.

 

Trolloc armies etc will be just a distraction anyway. Way for DO to try to keep forces of light from figuring out how to actually win it.

[Harry998]

Rand could still be Cuendillar for all we know. What happened to him doesn't mean that if given the chance again he wouldn't wipe out a palace full with compulsion damaged darkfriends plus a chosen one.

Personally I'm happy with the end of TGS and Rand smiling and laughing and all, but I'd still expect him to do what's necessary to wipe the forsaken/darkfriends from the world and win TG.

[Mikel of the Pure Heart]

Okay. Okay. I did not mean to have my every word above to be taken literally. I understand perfectly well the nature of balefire. The point I was trying to make is that war is hell, and Rand finally, in my eyes, was starting to come to terms with the nature of the problem here. If the Last Battle comes and goes without massive sacrifice from the forces of the light, including (but not limited to) atrocities committed in the name of the greater good, I will be supremely disappointed. Anything less will just seem cheap.

 

I shall make an effort to be as literal and monochromatic as possible in the future when posting my opinions, to avoid any further misunderstandings.

[tneva82]

Okay. Okay. I did not mean to have my every word above to be taken literally. I understand perfectly well the nature of balefire. The point I was trying to make is that war is hell, and Rand finally, in my eyes, was starting to come to terms with the nature of the problem here. If the Last Battle comes and goes without massive sacrifice from the forces of the light, including (but not limited to) atrocities committed in the name of the greater good, I will be supremely disappointed. Anything less will just seem cheap.

 

I shall make an effort to be as literal and monochromatic as possible in the future when posting my opinions, to avoid any further misunderstandings.

 

The "war" is going to not be about show of force anyway. DO isn't somebody you can defeat with armies. The armies are going to be playing role of distraction as it is.

[Mikel of the Pure Heart]

Sheesh. I understand the nature of the face off between the DO and the Dragon in the end as well. I have read the books. But to say that everything else is a distraction is wrong. If so, what has been the point of the last 12 books? Why not begin and end the series with aMoL, if everything else is of no consequence?

[Harry998]

The "war" is going to not be about show of force anyway. DO isn't somebody you can defeat with armies. The armies are going to be playing role of distraction as it is.

If what you say turns out true then Mat's role as a general, and Perin's role as king of the wolves are going to be next to pointless. 2 major characters scratched from having an important role in TG right away, since both of them would hardly have anything to do outside the steel vs steel aspect of the battle.

/offtopic

 

[Tel Janin]

He should be plutonium.

 

A totally off-topic FYI moment... Plutonium isn't particularly strong, just radioactive.  Even urnanium isn't particularly strong; it's very dense (and of course radioactive).  Back on-topic...

 

Strength is one of those subjective terms in this case.  Rand's perception of strength was measured in hardness.  The harder an object, typically the less flexible it becomes and the easier it is to break (especially when dealing in metallurgy).

 

War is indeed Hell.  I've seen that first hand in my 24 years of military service.  But in order to deal with the Hell of war, you cannot just harden your heart to it.  Tam said it best (and I'm paraphrasing), "You have to know WHY YOU're fighting."  In other words, you have be able to justify your wartime actions to yourself, and live with it.  You also have to understand why YOU are fighting, and that's something only you can answer.  Rand never did either of those until he was perched atop Dragonmount.  I don't think he's tried to justify his actions to himself, but at least it's a start.

 

My two coppers.

[fikkie77]

So am i the only one that assumes that Rands Sickness when he grabs hold of saidin will be gone in the next book?  Everyone seems to think that it has to do with the taint on saidin but why is it then that none of the asha'man are experiencing it? neither Logain or taim are experiencing it even tho they both have dealt with the power longer?  My explanation is that rand has be making himself more emotionally cut off, harder.  Notice that the sickness doesn't start until he starts hardening himself after killing Liah in Shadar Logoth. the harder he becomes the more intense the sickness becomes.  Up to the final time in Ebou Dar when "The sickness washed across him more powerfully than it ever had before."  If it was the taint then why is it that the sickness keeps getting worse even after the taint of cleansed.

I don't know if this one has been addressed already, but Rand's sickness does not come from the taint on saidin. Other channelers don't have this sickness and it got worse in time, even after saidin was cleansed.

It started after Rand and Moridin's balefires had crossed and had to do with their connection. Moridin might experience something similar. The sickness comes from the link between Rand and Moridin.

[Eleint]

What the hell is wrong with some of you people?! It seems to me that a fairly common theme here among fans is "I am so happy Rand has given up on his 'I am steel' outlook".... This is war, people! The Last War! Rand should be out Balefiring everything he sees! Steel? Cuendillar? Not good enough. He should be plutonium. I really hope Rand is not on the road to being a pansy again. I don't know how much more of that I can take.

 

Let me guess.  You absolutely loved the 90s Dork Age of Comics, too, didn't you? :)

 

Rand not being a walking black hole of angst and misery is not being a pansy.  Not being a sociopath doesn't equate to being a pansy.

[Whiskeyob]

"Belief and order give strength.  Have to clear rubble before you can build.  Will explain when see you next. Do not bring girl.  Too Pretty." - Herid Fel's Note to rand.

 

Belief and order give strength: I believe here fel is telling rand how to fight The Great Lord.  The Great Lord fights with despair and chaos.

 

Have to clear rubble before you can build: I believe that Fel is trying to tell rand that he cant reseal the The Great Lords prison, but that he has to clear away the current flawed prison and build a new one.

 

[deepak_dragonreborn]

Yup thats what most of us think.

[Demon_AS]

See, I'm now not certain what we can attribute to the taint, and what we can attribute to Rand being the Dragon.

 

What IS the taint, beyond a slick coating on the OP which turns male channelers mad? Sure, Rand went a bit nuts - but it's been highlighted in TGS that the nature of his madness probably had more to do with the stress of being proclaimed TDR and having the weight of the world than the taint.

 

So, voice of LTT = a result of stress induced madness?

 

But how can that account for memories, skills and talents? If he was mad, he wouldn't GAIN anything from it, would he? That doesn't seem like insanity to me. Surely if it was pure insanity, he'd just kill everyone and everything? I know he threatened to do it at the end there with the CK, but something about this whole situation doesn't ring true.

 

This is my best way of trying to simplify what I understand:

 

• Rand's memories of Lews Therin come from the effects of the taint.
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin comes from Rand's own mind as a way to try and deal or cope with the stress of (a) the effects of the taint and (b) his "calling" as the DR.
  

 

Now here it is in a bit more detail, again, as I understand it:

 

• Memories of Lews Therin's life, personality, face, acquaintances, etc... come from effects of the taint.  The taint actually "breaks down" the barrier between some men's current life and their past lives.  That is how Rand has those memories.  The taint did this.  That's how the memories and his knowledge of all of these things are real...  Because he actually remembers living as Lews Therin.  The taint does not cause men to hear voices in their heads!  This is just how some men cope with experiencing strange memories of their past lives.  The taint eventually causes them to go mad because it is so hard on their brains, and their brains try to "heal" themselves by creating voices as a way to "justify" or "explain" the strange memories. 
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head that seems to have conversations with Rand and everything is nothing more than a construct that Rand has created to deal with the effects of the taint.  Remember how Rand tried over and over to convince himself that Lews Therin (the voice, not the memories) was real?  His reasoning was that if it was real, then he's not mad...  So of course he wanted to believe that the voice was real... But it wasn't!  The voice was a construct that Rand/Rand's mind created to deal with the craziness of the taint (in other words, the real memories of Lews Therin--Rand's past life, not another person--that he had that came from the effects of the taint).
  

 

Finally, the insanity of the taint, in Rand's case, was gradual, not sudden.  He would've eventually turned to killing people (which he almost did do at the end of the book).  He just didn't get to that point, luckily...

 

Whew!  Writing that out was good for me.  It helped me clear my head of confusion.  Now hopefully my mind is clear enough that I won't construct a voice in my head to deal with the intricacies of trying to understand the mysteries of the Wheel of Time and RJs mind.  Though I wouldn't mind having his memories in my head.  ;)

Hmmm, a nice post - well explained!

 

However, despite all of it making sense - I had previously come to a similar conclusion - it still doesn't explain why Rand was able to draw like LTT, or channel like him. I suppose you would say that the memories to which he had access to explains this, but there's a difference between memory and muscle memory. He would not have been able to draw as well as he could, or play the flute as well as LTT could, if it was just a case of remembering how.

 

They say you never forget how to ride a bicycle. But I can assure you that, in the six years it's been since I've ridden one, if I were to get on one now, there would be considerable wobbling about. I certainly won't be able to do it as if I'd been practicing every day.

 

See what I mean? That's essentially the difference here.

 

I rather suspect that the voice of LTT was more than mere madness. I think it was the "mantle" of the Dragon which, up to now, Rand had still been rejecting. You see, his little rant to the Creator in Veins of Gold was him releasing his anger at the world - his anger at Him, in fact - at the fact that he, a simple shepherd, had been picked for something he never wanted. But once it was out of him, and he finally accepted what he was and WHY he was what he was, he allowed himself to BE the Dragon - fully. And thus, the inherent skills and talents of the previous Dragon - to which he had access to because it was in his soul - was fully integrated.

 

It's a little complicated, but I think this idea better explains why Rand can do what he can - i.e. utilise LTT's skills. So, simplified:

 

1. Rand always had the potential to tap into his "Dragon" self.

2. Rand's fundamental rejection of his own role as TDR created a second personality - that of LTT - which represented what he thought he was going to become if he DID accept it: mad.

3. The taint probably exacerbated this process, but the one weakpoint of my theory here is that it doesn't include effects from the taint, which we KNOW contributes to madness.

 

One last note: one thing that leads me to believe what I have just written is that LTT's voice sprang up around the time Rand was starting to "break the world". He was expected to be "The Dragon" - something he hadn't accepted - and thus we had the beginnings of LTT's voice.

 

I'm sorry for the rambling post, but I've come up with this on the spot, and I'd like to see what you all think! :)

[Dakota]

Has anyone brought up just how Elza got the Domination Band or even knew where it was?  As far as I can recall only Cadsuane, Sorilea, and Bair knew where it was.  I don't think it was Cadsuane who told so that leads me to believe that either Sorilea or Bair is a darkfriend.  Did I miss something elsewhere that would lead to Shaidar Haran or Elza knowing where the Domination Band is and how to open the box without the traps being sprung?

 

New poster here, and I saw this question.

 

I'm wondering if Graendal had something to do with this.  No idea how she would know exactly where the Domination Band was being kept, but the results do seem to point towards the sort of thing she would do.

Moridin told Graendal that she would be rewarded if she brought the DR pain, agony, and despair.

Graendal knew Semi well enough, both from personal experience, as well as being the equivalent of being the world's greatest psychologist and a master manipulator, that she would know -exactly- what Semi would do to Rand as soon as she had control of him via the band.  She'd be the type of person who would know that Semi would be unable to resist having a bit of fun with him first, rather than bringing Rand to Shayol Ghul right away or wherever.

Elza told Semi that she had Verin's Compulsion on her mind to be removed.  Just the fact that someone told her she was being compelled showed that whoever told her this had distinct knowledge of what Compulsion was.  Graendal is the mistress of Compulsion and would be the first to recognize it, even in a rudimentary form.  I doubt any of the Black Ajah or especially any Darkfriend Wise Ones would know specifically to call it that.  Shaidar Haran might, but again, who knows if he knows enough about the specific workings of the power to recognize individual weaves and what their known names for those weaves are.

If Graendal was the one who led to Semi getting set free with the Domination Band, then she would be the one responsible for Rand's pain and agony of killing Min with his own hand, even though Semi was the one who actually had him do it.

Moridin did specifically forbid Mesaana and Demandred from trying to free Semi, but I don't know if he extended this specific prohibition onto Graendal.

 

Best case scenario, she would have given Rand the pain and despair beyond any other, what Moridin had told her to do.  Worst case scenario, Rand or one of his followers would have killed Semi, which would have left Graendal with less competition amongst the forsaken.

 

There was the prologue chapter that made it a specific point to let the readers know that Graendal would plan to give Rand his pain and despair, yet if she didn't have anything to do with this, I don't remember her doing anything to lead towards that before she was offed.  Why would this chapter have specifically pointed it out if nothing was to come of it?

 

Plausible, or totally out of left field?

[Leezus]

See, I'm now not certain what we can attribute to the taint, and what we can attribute to Rand being the Dragon.

 

What IS the taint, beyond a slick coating on the OP which turns male channelers mad? Sure, Rand went a bit nuts - but it's been highlighted in TGS that the nature of his madness probably had more to do with the stress of being proclaimed TDR and having the weight of the world than the taint.

 

So, voice of LTT = a result of stress induced madness?

 

But how can that account for memories, skills and talents? If he was mad, he wouldn't GAIN anything from it, would he? That doesn't seem like insanity to me. Surely if it was pure insanity, he'd just kill everyone and everything? I know he threatened to do it at the end there with the CK, but something about this whole situation doesn't ring true.

 

This is my best way of trying to simplify what I understand:

 

• Rand's memories of Lews Therin come from the effects of the taint.
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin comes from Rand's own mind as a way to try and deal or cope with the stress of (a) the effects of the taint and (b) his "calling" as the DR.
  

 

Now here it is in a bit more detail, again, as I understand it:

 

• Memories of Lews Therin's life, personality, face, acquaintances, etc... come from effects of the taint.  The taint actually "breaks down" the barrier between some men's current life and their past lives.  That is how Rand has those memories.  The taint did this.  That's how the memories and his knowledge of all of these things are real...  Because he actually remembers living as Lews Therin.  The taint does not cause men to hear voices in their heads!  This is just how some men cope with experiencing strange memories of their past lives.  The taint eventually causes them to go mad because it is so hard on their brains, and their brains try to "heal" themselves by creating voices as a way to "justify" or "explain" the strange memories. 
   
  
• The voice of Lews Therin in Rand's head that seems to have conversations with Rand and everything is nothing more than a construct that Rand has created to deal with the effects of the taint.  Remember how Rand tried over and over to convince himself that Lews Therin (the voice, not the memories) was real?  His reasoning was that if it was real, then he's not mad...  So of course he wanted to believe that the voice was real... But it wasn't!  The voice was a construct that Rand/Rand's mind created to deal with the craziness of the taint (in other words, the real memories of Lews Therin--Rand's past life, not another person--that he had that came from the effects of the taint).
  

 

Finally, the insanity of the taint, in Rand's case, was gradual, not sudden.  He would've eventually turned to killing people (which he almost did do at the end of the book).  He just didn't get to that point, luckily...

 

Whew!  Writing that out was good for me.  It helped me clear my head of confusion.  Now hopefully my mind is clear enough that I won't construct a voice in my head to deal with the intricacies of trying to understand the mysteries of the Wheel of Time and RJs mind.  Though I wouldn't mind having his memories in my head.  ;)

Hmmm, a nice post - well explained!

 

However, despite all of it making sense - I had previously come to a similar conclusion - it still doesn't explain why Rand was able to draw like LTT, or channel like him. I suppose you would say that the memories to which he had access to explains this, but there's a difference between memory and muscle memory. He would not have been able to draw as well as he could, or play the flute as well as LTT could, if it was just a case of remembering how.

 

They say you never forget how to ride a bicycle. But I can assure you that, in the six years it's been since I've ridden one, if I were to get on one now, there would be considerable wobbling about. I certainly won't be able to do it as if I'd been practicing every day.

 

See what I mean? That's essentially the difference here.

 

I rather suspect that the voice of LTT was more than mere madness. I think it was the "mantle" of the Dragon which, up to now, Rand had still been rejecting. You see, his little rant to the Creator in Veins of Gold was him releasing his anger at the world - his anger at Him, in fact - at the fact that he, a simple shepherd, had been picked for something he never wanted. But once it was out of him, and he finally accepted what he was and WHY he was what he was, he allowed himself to BE the Dragon - fully. And thus, the inherent skills and talents of the previous Dragon - to which he had access to because it was in his soul - was fully integrated.

 

It's a little complicated, but I think this idea better explains why Rand can do what he can - i.e. utilise LTT's skills. So, simplified:

 

1. Rand always had the potential to tap into his "Dragon" self.

2. Rand's fundamental rejection of his own role as TDR created a second personality - that of LTT - which represented what he thought he was going to become if he DID accept it: mad.

3. The taint probably exacerbated this process, but the one weakpoint of my theory here is that it doesn't include effects from the taint, which we KNOW contributes to madness.

 

One last note: one thing that leads me to believe what I have just written is that LTT's voice sprang up around the time Rand was starting to "break the world". He was expected to be "The Dragon" - something he hadn't accepted - and thus we had the beginnings of LTT's voice.

 

I'm sorry for the rambling post, but I've come up with this on the spot, and I'd like to see what you all think! :)

 

I agree with you. Rand was struggling away from being the Dragon, and I think LTT popping up in his mind was the pattern pulling him back in to place as it always does. In the end, through all of his struggling and hardening, the pattern got him to where he needed to be, as if that was the plan all along.

[Kaleyra Estalor]

Obviously I could be very wrong... but I think that the voice of LTT was Rand's way of dealing with the fact he had knowledge he wasn't suppose to have. Mentally if we can't handle something we often make excuses or put up blocks. How much can a mind take of the memory of killing your entire family. Just as in a coversation with Min is he is rationalizing why that it has to be two separate entities.  The reason I say this is because in the end it gives the impression that Rand doesn't JUST remember LTT but ALL his past lives. At the same time this is a moment of exceptence. Not that he just going to die but that he fights in hope of love. I also find it interesting that he said if he had been reborn maybe "she" had been also... Any takers on how this relates to Aviendha, Min, and Elayne?

[randfandom]

Obviously I could be very wrong... but I think that the voice of LTT was Rand's way of dealing with the fact he had knowledge he wasn't suppose to have. Mentally if we can't handle something we often make excuses or put up blocks. How much can a mind take of the memory of killing your entire family.

 

I think the key was the fact that to accept the memories as his own would mean to accept that he killed his family - and in particular his wife. So he created a second personality and fed all his emotions to it. All through the series I was struck by how LTT is almost nothing but emotions - love, despair, but also humor - with the occasional knowledge tidbit thrown in, whereas Rand's emotions are just anger and - when he can't help it - love. Rand is the logical, intellectual one, LTT is a bundle of emotions - it's pretty obviously not the LTT of the AoL.

 

I also find it interesting that he said if he had been reborn maybe "she" had been also... Any takers on how this relates to Aviendha, Min, and Elayne?

 

It relates to Ilyena obviously. The three current loves are all still alive. Recall that the first time we encounter Lews Therin is when we hear him cry over Ilyena. Rand's most recent - and powerful - memory of his past life is so traumatic, that he could not deal with it. He can only accept that he has done it and forgive himself at the Veins of Gold chapter. He can see hope because by fighting on, he can give her another chance to live.

[jemron]

Hmmm, a nice post - well explained!

 

However, despite all of it making sense - I had previously come to a similar conclusion - it still doesn't explain why Rand was able to draw like LTT, or channel like him. I suppose you would say that the memories to which he had access to explains this, but there's a difference between memory and muscle memory. He would not have been able to draw as well as he could, or play the flute as well as LTT could, if it was just a case of remembering how.

 

They say you never forget how to ride a bicycle. But I can assure you that, in the six years it's been since I've ridden one, if I were to get on one now, there would be considerable wobbling about. I certainly won't be able to do it as if I'd been practicing every day.

 

See what I mean? That's essentially the difference here.

 

I rather suspect that the voice of LTT was more than mere madness. I think it was the "mantle" of the Dragon which, up to now, Rand had still been rejecting. You see, his little rant to the Creator in Veins of Gold was him releasing his anger at the world - his anger at Him, in fact - at the fact that he, a simple shepherd, had been picked for something he never wanted. But once it was out of him, and he finally accepted what he was and WHY he was what he was, he allowed himself to BE the Dragon - fully. And thus, the inherent skills and talents of the previous Dragon - to which he had access to because it was in his soul - was fully integrated.

 

It's a little complicated, but I think this idea better explains why Rand can do what he can - i.e. utilise LTT's skills. So, simplified:

 

1. Rand always had the potential to tap into his "Dragon" self.

2. Rand's fundamental rejection of his own role as TDR created a second personality - that of LTT - which represented what he thought he was going to become if he DID accept it: mad.

3. The taint probably exacerbated this process, but the one weakpoint of my theory here is that it doesn't include effects from the taint, which we KNOW contributes to madness.

 

One last note: one thing that leads me to believe what I have just written is that LTT's voice sprang up around the time Rand was starting to "break the world". He was expected to be "The Dragon" - something he hadn't accepted - and thus we had the beginnings of LTT's voice.

 

I'm sorry for the rambling post, but I've come up with this on the spot, and I'd like to see what you all think! :)

 

I agree with you. Rand was struggling away from being the Dragon, and I think LTT popping up in his mind was the pattern pulling him back in to place as it always does. In the end, through all of his struggling and hardening, the pattern got him to where he needed to be, as if that was the plan all along.

 

While I understand your argument(s) for Rand being linked to the Dragon by the pattern, but I still feel like none of that would've been possible without the taint.  The Dragon can't just somehow conjure up his link to his past life.  The taint is what broke down that barrier between Rand and Lews Therin (the same soul, but two completely different personalities).  Lews Therin didn't have memories of his past life (as far as we know) and he was the Dragon "re-reborn."  If there had been no taint, there would've been no memory of Rand's past life as Lews Therin, and Rand wouldn't have had countless advantages that he has had against the DO.  This is the irony to me.  It is because of the taint of the DO that Rand has been able to advance in power, knowledge, and skill.  His link to Lews Therin has proven to help him in his eventual defeat of the DO (assuming he does succeed).

 

The pattern is neutral, and doesn't take sides... At least, that's what we think.  The pattern was not responsible for Rand's link to his past life.  That was all due to the effects of the taint and Rand's mental breakdown (caused by said effects) which caused him to create Lews Therin (the voice/personality) inside of his head.  This, of course, is my opinion, and I can't declare with complete authority that this is true.

 

Interestingly, when Rand had internal "fights" or "struggles" with Lews Therin (eg. when Lews Therin would seize the OP before Rand could, or when Lews Therin would try to "take control" of the OP from Rand) I think this was all due to Rand's stress-induced insanity, not his taint induced insanity.  He was never fighting anybody but himself for control over the OP.  However, the taint was making it harder for him to distinguish between himself and his past life.  Sometimes he wouldn't remember if he was Lews Therin or Rand.  This was an effect of the taint, and not self-induced.  Had Rand continued to channel tainted saidin he probably would've eventually lost control of his Rand side, and would've been completely mad, not knowing exactly who he was, or what he was doing, just as Lews Therin did before the end of his life (and before he was temporarily healed by Ishy).

 

So, with all this said, I feel like Rand's memories of Lews Therin (the direct effects of the taint) will still be there.  But, his issues with the made-up voice of Lews Therin, and consequent struggles with said voice, will be gone and he won't be getting more crazy or more mentally unstable because he came to grips with that and "reintegrated" at the end of TGS.  Rand will be Rand 'al Thor with memories of Lews Therin.  He won't be Rand Therin or Lews 'al Thor or Lews Therin.

[Meskell]

I enjoyed the book massively so kudos to BS. However I hated the final chapter, especially the 'revelation' of love and hope. It just felt like an exact mirror image of Harry Potter. Also the chapter completely took me out of the WoT world and seemed to transport me to a generic high fantasy book :(

[jemron]

I know "love and hope" are cliche... But really, what else is worth fighting for? 

 

Besides, I've heard it argued on this board that it wasn't just about love and hope, it was about Rand finally understanding the purpose of the Wheel of Time and allowing people like him (and everybody in that world) the ability to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. chance at getting things right.

 

I liked it, but maybe that's because I'm a sucker for that sort of thing, even if it is cliche.

[Demon_AS]

Hmmm, a nice post - well explained!

 

However, despite all of it making sense - I had previously come to a similar conclusion - it still doesn't explain why Rand was able to draw like LTT, or channel like him. I suppose you would say that the memories to which he had access to explains this, but there's a difference between memory and muscle memory. He would not have been able to draw as well as he could, or play the flute as well as LTT could, if it was just a case of remembering how.

 

They say you never forget how to ride a bicycle. But I can assure you that, in the six years it's been since I've ridden one, if I were to get on one now, there would be considerable wobbling about. I certainly won't be able to do it as if I'd been practicing every day.

 

See what I mean? That's essentially the difference here.

 

I rather suspect that the voice of LTT was more than mere madness. I think it was the "mantle" of the Dragon which, up to now, Rand had still been rejecting. You see, his little rant to the Creator in Veins of Gold was him releasing his anger at the world - his anger at Him, in fact - at the fact that he, a simple shepherd, had been picked for something he never wanted. But once it was out of him, and he finally accepted what he was and WHY he was what he was, he allowed himself to BE the Dragon - fully. And thus, the inherent skills and talents of the previous Dragon - to which he had access to because it was in his soul - was fully integrated.

 

It's a little complicated, but I think this idea better explains why Rand can do what he can - i.e. utilise LTT's skills. So, simplified:

 

1. Rand always had the potential to tap into his "Dragon" self.

2. Rand's fundamental rejection of his own role as TDR created a second personality - that of LTT - which represented what he thought he was going to become if he DID accept it: mad.

3. The taint probably exacerbated this process, but the one weakpoint of my theory here is that it doesn't include effects from the taint, which we KNOW contributes to madness.

 

One last note: one thing that leads me to believe what I have just written is that LTT's voice sprang up around the time Rand was starting to "break the world". He was expected to be "The Dragon" - something he hadn't accepted - and thus we had the beginnings of LTT's voice.

 

I'm sorry for the rambling post, but I've come up with this on the spot, and I'd like to see what you all think! :)

 

I agree with you. Rand was struggling away from being the Dragon, and I think LTT popping up in his mind was the pattern pulling him back in to place as it always does. In the end, through all of his struggling and hardening, the pattern got him to where he needed to be, as if that was the plan all along.

 

While I understand your argument(s) for Rand being linked to the Dragon by the pattern, but I still feel like none of that would've been possible without the taint.  The Dragon can't just somehow conjure up his link to his past life.  The taint is what broke down that barrier between Rand and Lews Therin (the same soul, but two completely different personalities).  Lews Therin didn't have memories of his past life (as far as we know) and he was the Dragon "re-reborn."  If there had been no taint, there would've been no memory of Rand's past life as Lews Therin, and Rand wouldn't have had countless advantages that he has had against the DO.  This is the irony to me.  It is because of the taint of the DO that Rand has been able to advance in power, knowledge, and skill.  His link to Lews Therin has proven to help him in his eventual defeat of the DO (assuming he does succeed).

 

The pattern is neutral, and doesn't take sides... At least, that's what we think.  The pattern was not responsible for Rand's link to his past life.  That was all due to the effects of the taint and Rand's mental breakdown (caused by said effects) which caused him to create Lews Therin (the voice/personality) inside of his head.  This, of course, is my opinion, and I can't declare with complete authority that this is true.

 

Interestingly, when Rand had internal "fights" or "struggles" with Lews Therin (eg. when Lews Therin would seize the OP before Rand could, or when Lews Therin would try to "take control" of the OP from Rand) I think this was all due to Rand's stress-induced insanity, not his taint induced insanity.  He was never fighting anybody but himself for control over the OP.  However, the taint was making it harder for him to distinguish between himself and his past life.  Sometimes he wouldn't remember if he was Lews Therin or Rand.  This was an effect of the taint, and not self-induced.  Had Rand continued to channel tainted saidin he probably would've eventually lost control of his Rand side, and would've been completely mad, not knowing exactly who he was, or what he was doing, just as Lews Therin did before the end of his life (and before he was temporarily healed by Ishy).

 

So, with all this said, I feel like Rand's memories of Lews Therin (the direct effects of the taint) will still be there.  But, his issues with the made-up voice of Lews Therin, and consequent struggles with said voice, will be gone and he won't be getting more crazy or more mentally unstable because he came to grips with that and "reintegrated" at the end of TGS.  Rand will be Rand 'al Thor with memories of Lews Therin.  He won't be Rand Therin or Lews 'al Thor or Lews Therin.

The problem with both our points of view here is that we don't know enough. Like the DO, the taint has been mentioned and its existence a fact... but we know nothing about IT as an entity. There is no basis in fact that proves that the taint erodes whatever barriers exist between the current incarnation of a soul and its previous incarnations. The whole issue with balefire and its time-altering effects (or lack thereof) only adds to the argument that it's unlikely going to be something that happens as a result of the taint messing with time.

 

How can something that drives you insane (and we still don't know how this works) put you in touch with your past lives? And why only one? Why was Rand not aware of all the other Dragons reborn? Why has no other Asha'man come forward and said, "Oh, by the way, this is happening to me too!". You'd think, after 5 years of channeling (longer than Rand, by any stretch) that Logain would have experienced something similar if it was taint related. But there's been no mention of it in ANY of Logain's POV chapters.

 

So, the sheer lack of any evidence leads me to think that LTT's voice was probably NOT to do with the taint on saidin. That, coupled with what I had to say over Rand and his gain of abilities and skills that he simply didn't possess lead me to consider something other than the taint as a cause.

 

The question is... what? :)

 

Sorry for the rant-like post - it's fun to discuss this sort of thing.

[Meskell]

I know "love and hope" are cliche... But really, what else is worth fighting for? 

 

Besides, I've heard it argued on this board that it wasn't just about love and hope, it was about Rand finally understanding the purpose of the Wheel of Time and allowing people like him (and everybody in that world) the ability to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. chance at getting things right.

 

I liked it, but maybe that's because I'm a sucker for that sort of thing, even if it is cliche.

It wasn't so much the cliche used as I think it was kind of ovious that was what was going to happen. The problem I have with the chapter is the shoddy and broken writing, as well as the generic feel of it. It really was the only point in the book where I genuinly thought "ah now there is where you can tell RJ was not writing the book"

 

I even asked my girlfriend to read the chapter and she was positively disgusted by the writing, and could not believe that I actually read this series of books. Until I explained the brilliance of WoT :D

[Whitering]

I should mention that the scene where Rand threatened Cadsuane with the pattern was probably my favourite scene in the books. Mind you, the only character I dislike more than Faile is Cadsuane.

[jemron]

I know "love and hope" are cliche... But really, what else is worth fighting for? 

 

Besides, I've heard it argued on this board that it wasn't just about love and hope, it was about Rand finally understanding the purpose of the Wheel of Time and allowing people like him (and everybody in that world) the ability to have a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. chance at getting things right.

 

I liked it, but maybe that's because I'm a sucker for that sort of thing, even if it is cliche.

It wasn't so much the cliche used as I think it was kind of ovious that was what was going to happen. The problem I have with the chapter is the shoddy and broken writing, as well as the generic feel of it. It really was the only point in the book where I genuinly thought "ah now there is where you can tell RJ was not writing the book"

 

I even asked my girlfriend to read the chapter and she was positively disgusted by the writing, and could not believe that I actually read this series of books. Until I explained the brilliance of WoT :D

 

Yeah...  I really liked that scene, but I also felt like the writing was a bit spotty frankly.  It felt a lot more like the epiphany chapters in Mistborn books, and less like a WoT chapter.  I still liked it, I just thought the style was very different from how RJ would've written it.

 

I also think that it felt rushed/spotty because I was reading it so freakin' fast at like 3am.  I still have to go back and reread it.  I was just too excited to finish the book, couldn't sleep, and wanted desperately to read till the end.

 

 

[randfandom]

I know "love and hope" are cliche... But really, what else is worth fighting for? 

It wasn't so much the cliche used as I think it was kind of ovious that was what was going to happen. The problem I have with the chapter is the shoddy and broken writing, as well as the generic feel of it. It really was the only point in the book where I genuinly thought "ah now there is where you can tell RJ was not writing the book"

 

While the prose was not up to RJ's standards (through much of the book, but especially here), the contents were clearly RJ. It feels "obvious" to you, because you have seen where it all leads from the POV's of everyone else trying to push Rand in that direction and because that's what we know must happen. But while we all were waiting for him to finally see it, Rand had no idea that's where he was going until he was there. This felt genuine. It's not the destination that matters here. We all know the good side will win, though with a lot of pain, it's the journey that matters. I thought it was was constructed in a very believable way.