Prologue, Chap. 1-50, Epilogue

[lillcheese]

Ooh, I like that.  What're the odds LTT knew the Song well enough Rand could teach it to people now?  I'd like the Tinkers to find their song finally.

[chuckievi]

Well that required the Nym as well as I recall, and they are all dead so...

[Rasputin]

Forgive me for not reading through the entire thread to see if this has been discussed.  I skimmed and it's 80 pages.

 

Don't events in this book make it seem like Mesaana is hiding as Laras?

 

She helped Min and them escape after Siuan was stilled which would surely promote discord among the tower.

 

She supported Egwene at least a little as a prisoner which would surely promote discord in the tower.

 

She tried to get Egwene out of the tower when it appeared that Egwene's presence might actually be reuniting the tower.

 

How many times have we heard that novices overhear things?  Novices sent from kitchens with meals would overhear a lot of things and could be compulsed into a) revealing everything and b) not revealing that they were compulsed.

 

I'm wondering is all.

[SinisterDeath]

Well that required the Nym as well as I recall, and they are all dead so...

 

They, & the Aiel both sung.

[lillcheese]

Forgive me for not reading through the entire thread to see if this has been discussed.  I skimmed and it's 80 pages.

 

Don't events in this book make it seem like Mesaana is hiding as Laras?

 

She helped Min and them escape after Siuan was stilled which would surely promote discord among the tower.

 

She supported Egwene at least a little as a prisoner which would surely promote discord in the tower.

 

She tried to get Egwene out of the tower when it appeared that Egwene's presence might actually be reuniting the tower.

 

How many times have we heard that novices overhear things?  Novices sent from kitchens with meals would overhear a lot of things and could be compulsed into a) revealing everything and b) not revealing that they were compulsed.

 

I'm wondering is all.

 

There was some small discussion of it.  My only counters to your points are 1. the length of time Laras has been in the Tower and 2. how much free time Laras had to pop off for Forsaken meetings. 

 

For 1, I thought Laras had been in the WT for a long time and was well known enough that impersonating her would be difficult. I can't remember where I got that impression.  Probably from Siuan's statements just before sending the Super Girls out to hunt BA. 

 

For 2, It's a pretty weak counter argument.  AFAIK, we don't know when the Forsaken meetings were happening.  It would be odd for the Mistress of the Kitchen to be absent during meal time, less so in the middle of the night. 

 

I was always a fan of the Danelle = Mesaana theory.  I don't recall seeing her during tGS at all, and I'm not sure what that could imply.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Well that required the Nym as well as I recall, and they are all dead so...

 

Yes they are, BUT -

 

Loial is a Treesinger.  He sang Someshta's remains into a monument tree.  LTT had "the Voice."  Rand has now integrated LTT and all of the other Dragon memories.  As Thom reminds us, Rand has the talent to have become a Bard.

 

Wanna bet that together, Loial and Rand will "sing" some Nym out of that monument tree if the solution requires Nym?

Wanna bet that there's a really good plot reason why the Aiel went off to the most desolate place they could find and have interbred for 3000 years, reinforcing their gene pool?

Wanna bet that there is a very high percentage of the Aiel that also have "The Voice," as a result?

 

I've always thought that the armies and Dreadlords and everything are just window-dressing.  That Rand, the Aiel, the Tinkers and the Ogier ( with maybe some Nym if they're needed ), will sing the Bore closed, and heal the land in the process.  Rand has already realized that brute force isn't going to work.

[Asuana]

Forgive me for not reading through the entire thread to see if this has been discussed.  I skimmed and it's 80 pages.

 

Don't events in this book make it seem like Mesaana is hiding as Laras?

 

She helped Min and them escape after Siuan was stilled which would surely promote discord among the tower.

 

She supported Egwene at least a little as a prisoner which would surely promote discord in the tower.

 

She tried to get Egwene out of the tower when it appeared that Egwene's presence might actually be reuniting the tower.

 

How many times have we heard that novices overhear things?  Novices sent from kitchens with meals would overhear a lot of things and could be compulsed into a) revealing everything and b) not revealing that they were compulsed.

 

I'm wondering is all.

 

From pg 36 of What the Storm Means:

Mesaana was in the White Tower, pretending to be one of what passed for an Aes Sedai in this Age. She was obvious and easy to red: Graendal’s agents in the White Tower kept her well apprised of Mesaana’s activities.

 

 

So I would have to believe that Mesaana is not Laras.  She is either one of the AS who fled the tower, or she found a way around the oath rod.  The most likely way would be that she could truthfully say that she is neither BA nor darkfriend.

[lillcheese]

Well that required the Nym as well as I recall, and they are all dead so...

 

Yes they are, BUT -

 

Loial is a Treesinger.  He sang Someshta's remains into a monument tree.  LTT had "the Voice."  Rand has now integrated LTT and all of the other Dragon memories.

 

Wanna bet that together, Loial and Rand will "sing" some Nym out of that monument tree if the solution requires Nym?

Wanna bet that there's a really good plot reason why the Aiel went off to the most desolate place they could find and have interbred for 3000 years, reinforcing their gene pool?

Wanna bet that there is a very high percentage of the Aiel that also have "The Voice," as a result?

 

I've always thought that the armies and Dreadlords and everything are just window-dressing.  That Rand, the Aiel, the Tinkers and the Ogier ( with maybe some Nym if they're needed ), will sing the Bore closed, and heal the land in the process.  Rand has already realized that brute force isn't going to work.

 

Is it all Aiel, or just the men, who don't sing?  I got the impression that the battle/mourning "songs" were really more along the lines of a chant.  I'm hoping this ends up being significant.  It's so strange for a human culture to almost completely eliminate singing.  

[SinisterDeath]

Well that required the Nym as well as I recall, and they are all dead so...

 

Yes they are, BUT -

 

Loial is a Treesinger.  He sang Someshta's remains into a monument tree.  LTT had "the Voice."  Rand has now integrated LTT and all of the other Dragon memories.

 

Wanna bet that together, Loial and Rand will "sing" some Nym out of that monument tree if the solution requires Nym?

Wanna bet that there's a really good plot reason why the Aiel went off to the most desolate place they could find and have interbred for 3000 years, reinforcing their gene pool?

Wanna bet that there is a very high percentage of the Aiel that also have "The Voice," as a result?

 

I've always thought that the armies and Dreadlords and everything are just window-dressing.  That Rand, the Aiel, the Tinkers and the Ogier ( with maybe some Nym if they're needed, will sing the Bore closed, and heal the land in the process.  Rand has already realized that brute force isn't going to work.

 

I agree, though Mat and Perrin are definately going to play a role in this, even if it just being ta'varen...

 

I can't wait until Mat unloads a dragon into a mydraals face. ;)

 

Well, the implication of your statement was that there was a residue.  With balefire there is no residue.  Sometimes a few shimmery sparkles that dissipate, but never any residue.

 

The servants don't even hafta come out and sweep or remove stains from the rug, you're just GONE.

 

... until your soul gets reborn in the normal fashion at some future point.

 

Earlier in the books, RJ described 'smoke' after balefiring someone.

Thats obviously residue.

The lack of heat can be explained via the way it 'kills someone' before they died. How would you feel that heat in the present, if it happened in the past and you don't even remember it?

+ When he blew up the fortress, he was miles away. ;)

 

 

Course, theres an entirely better explanation.

Rand Converted the Entire fortress, and there inhabitants.

Into Photons.

 

^_^

I win!

[anotherfingolfin]

@anotherfingolfin

 

He needed to get stronger, not harder.

 

Who he needs to resemble is not Rand preLOC, but rather Rhuarc, Bael, Bashere, Bryne, Ituralde, Lan, and Tam.

 

Indeed, he needs to resemble the Lews Therin of the First War (as opposed to what the man became after the Bore was sealed).

 

In a lot of ways, Rand's "hardness" was something immature and a way to avoid taking responsibility - as Cadsuane herself mentioned, before DarkRand, CrazyRand was essentially a boy with a good heart who was being stubborn beyond any one in history. Rand was mistaking the appearance of strength and responsibility for the substance.

 

He was hard and obsessive rather than strong and responsible. And I completely understand why this happened.

 

 

 

What Mat has demonstrated increasingly since LOC is that he has *adapted* to *his* memories in a way that Rand simply failed to do with Lews Therin's. I think you could rightly argue that part of why Rand couldn't do this was because of the Taint.

 

 

 

He's relied on them without losing sight of who *Mat Cauthon* is inside. I think that's the key difference. Unlike Rand and Perrin, Mat was never the goodie two shoes boy. He was the troublemaker. But it is just this devil may care attitude that allowed him to adapt. Rather than letting it get to him, he simply allowed his pre-existing but under-used sense of responsibility to come to the fore.

 

Rand actively tried to make himself harder. Mat, kicking and screaming, had to be thrust into responsibility, but then his underlying decency left him no choice but to rely on those memories so he wouldn't get killed.

 

It's pretty ironic; Rand and Perrin think of their superpowers in the kind of "great power, great responsibility" way, while Mat thinks "I'm only in this to save my skin". Yet the former two allow themselves to lose sight of their responsibility for personal reasons, while the latter turns into Han Solo. Always griping, but the one guy you can always count on in a pinch.

 

 

ok, some thoughts-

 

i still maintain that some degree of hardness is unavoidable. i can't say i have first hand knowledge, but i am fairly certain. in the craziness of war, people do have to see and do things that go against the ethics, to some extent. for example you have to attack a certain target, and there is going to be unavoidable civilian fallout. how do you reconcile that? you have to steel yourself, and that is the 'hardness' to use WoT language. Courage and bravery and duty to your nation and personal sacrifice, i would classify under strength. Understanding innocent people are going to die in a conflict you partake in, but doing your duty regardless is undeniably desensitising yourself to an extent. And that is hardness. I hope that makes sense. Rand to some extent definitely has to harden himself at least a little, if real world rules apply. Not become what he had by the end of it, but a little. ok, i'll end that ramble there.

 

Ok, stubborn... well i dunno how to feel about that. Prior to this book , I always got the impression that we are being told how stubborn he is through other characters more, and less from actual ox-headed actions. (i'll admit my memory is not very good though). Most of these characters call him stubborn because his ideas are different from theirs. (Also, as most of these are female characters, i discredit them further, as in WoT they always think men are incompetent and stubborn). Especially when it comes to Cad- really, how often does she sit down and treat him with respect and properly explain her reasons to him. insult him and try and get him to do what you want without offering explanation? i don't think stubborn is a fair assessment.

 

i think you are on to something with the Mat comparision. Mat thinks about survival, and still doesn't feel the weight of responsibility much. Rand (and to an extent Perrin) feel responsibility's weight on them. Rand gets particularly bleak. I mean, his whole life feels like it has been written for him. He has the most responsibility in the world, and this was destined at his birth. In all fairness, that pressure added with all the trauma placed on this young, 20-something shepherd is pretty inhuman. Hence he deals with it by trying to convince himself of his lack of humanity. Hence all the ranting about how he is the Dragon reborn, a mythical figure, a legend. Mat OTOH pointedly strives to make light of his eminent place in world affairs, while still managing not to shirk. (though i don't think the pattern would let him even if he tried to run away and hide in a cave  ;D )

[Bob T Dwarf]

I think we're both right.

 

You get photons when the balefire arrives.  You get effects ( in the past ) when the person/structure/whatever disappears.

 

Go back to Rahvin's death - he just "ceased."  No conversion.  No nuthin.  He just ceases.

[SinisterDeath]

I think we're both right.

 

You get photons when the balefire arrives.  You get effects ( in the past ) when the person/structure/whatever disappears.

 

Go back to Rahvin's death - he just "ceased."  No conversion.  No nuthin.  He just ceases.

 

Thats justthe affects of Quantum Mechanics.

 

It be like going back in time and killing the people who built a house. The house doesn't cease to exist-per-say, its just that the material in the 'present' would seeminlgy disapear, but in the past, those materails went to build something else.

So in the 'past' that no one 'remembers' that giant fotress could have gone up in a giant plume of smoke, H-bomb, or photon specticle. :P

[Mr. Micawber]

Bob, you gotta stop with this bovine fecal matter.

 

You're absolutely killing Joe Al'Schmoe's sales by going on about ceasing. Do you have any idea how hard it is to unload 12,000 cases of Chosen-in-a-can?

 

Look, I didn't mind you helping me undermine Imperial Shipbuilding Technologies in the other thread. Can't stand statism, m'self.

 

But I've got to draw the line at destroying a good man just trying to make a buck in the most shamelessly promoted way possible.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

i think you are on to something with the Mat comparision. Mat thinks about survival, and still doesn't feel the weight of responsibility much. Rand (and to an extent Perrin) feel responsibility's weight on them. Rand gets particularly bleak. I mean, his whole life feels like it has been written for him. He has the most responsibility in the world, and this was destined at his birth. In all fairness, that pressure added with all the trauma placed on this young, 20-something shepherd is pretty inhuman. Hence he deals with it by trying to convince himself of his lack of humanity. Hence all the ranting about how he is the Dragon reborn, a mythical figure, a legend. Mat OTOH pointedly strives to make light of his eminent place in world affairs, while still managing not to shirk. (though i don't think the pattern would let him even if he tried to run away and hide in a cave  ;D )

 

Mat's a good guy, but he's more than a little dense, and the Wheel has to keep giving him "subtle" reminders about things.

 

Wanna run away?  Wheel drops a wall on him as a tiny hint that he needs to stay put and keep his head down.

 

Wanna dawdle?  The Wheel plugs up the pass with 100,000 troops and then sends another 10,000 greedy bounty hunters after Tuon, so he's gotta get creative and work his way out of the box.

 

Wanna dawdle some more?  Have some beer and a night off?  The Wheel turns the whole town into zombies just to get him to keep moving.

 

Still wanna dawdle and waste even more time?  The Wheel burns down inns, hands out colds, and drags Verin eleventy-seven miles off course just to get him where he needs to be when he needs to get there.

[Mr. Micawber]

I said he handled his newfound responsibilities and superpowers with an incredible amount of humility and a surprising amount of acceptance.

 

I never said he lost his "troublemaker" status.

 

Namely, that he's also a loveable, hilarious dumbass.

[Bongdar]

Is it a fact that Graendal was the one who cast compulsion? or some female channeler versed in compulsion before Rand blew the place up?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Bob, you gotta stop with this bovine fecal matter.

 

You're absolutely killing Joe Al'Schmoe's sales by going on about ceasing. Do you have any idea how hard it is to unload 12,000 cases of Chosen-in-a-can?

 

Look, I didn't mind you helping me undermine Imperial Shipbuilding Technologies in the other thread. Can't stand statism, m'self.

 

But I've got to draw the line at destroying a good man just trying to make a buck in the most shamelessly promoted way possible.

 

 

 

It's gonna get worse, too.  Walmart is getting into the act.  They've  got 3 container shiploads of Hung Sum Souls on the way from China ( oooops, sorry, make that Seanchan ).  3.99 per can.  Pickled in aspic.

[Mr. Micawber]

Is it a fact that Graendal was the one who cast compulsion? or some female channeler versed in compulsion before Rand blew the place up?

 

This, Friend Bongdar, is the Million Tar Valon Mark question of the thread.

 

And Bob, blood and bloody ashes! 3.99? And probably the scum sucking Trollocs over at Walmart will accept Murandian weight. They would, the bastards.

[taliefer]

so, in regards to callandor. the "flaw" is that it allows the man to channel enough of saidar to burn himself out, unless in a circle?

 

so does that mean, rand, + 2 women, since they can negate the flaw (probably elayne and avi, or possible nyn) = UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER?!~

 

plus, ive always felt callandor was underused...we all know arturian legend is a huge influence on the WoT, and it seems to me "excalibur" hasnt really had its main stage yet.

[SinisterDeath]

so, in regards to callandor. the "flaw" is that it allows the man to channel enough of saidar to burn himself out, unless in a circle?

 

so does that mean, rand, + 2 women, since they can negate the flaw (probably elayne and avi, or possible nyn) = UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER?!~

 

plus, ive always felt callandor was underused...we all know arturian legend is a huge influence on the WoT, and it seems to me "excalibur" hasnt really had its main stage yet.

 

More like it causes insanity unless the flow is controlled by a female.

[Mr. Micawber]

so, in regards to callandor. the "flaw" is that it allows the man to channel enough of saidar to burn himself out, unless in a circle?

 

so does that mean, rand, + 2 women, since they can negate the flaw (probably elayne and avi, or possible nyn) = UNLIMITED COSMIC POWER?!~

 

plus, ive always felt callandor was underused...we all know arturian legend is a huge influence on the WoT, and it seems to me "excalibur" hasnt really had its main stage yet.

 

More like it causes insanity unless the flow is controlled by a female.

 

 

No, as Cadsuane thinks and says, Callandor's arguably bigger problem is that it lacks the *buffer* that makes it safe to use.

 

Namely, that you can use it to increase the amount you're drawing, but do so runs a serious risk of damaging your ability to channel or even burning you out.

[tneva82]

WOW! Got the book yesterday and got it read 2 hours ago. 31.5h including little brothers birthday + another period where I had to watch him(plus 6 hours of sleep) to read it. I was reading like a maniac and boy was it worth it. Loved Rand's arc(even if it made hair in my neck raise up constantly) and jaw fell big time when it came to Verin. Didn't see THAT one coming up!

 

IMO best book on the serie. Things are really moving fast toward conclusion. Still wish RJ would have been able to finish this but atleast BS does the job well.

 

Loved the book. Only problem is it's now read! And there's another year of waiting! ARGH! Ah well. Maybe I could read this one again.

 

Oh and too bad there wasn't more about Mat(my favourite character) but guess something needs to be left for 2nd book ;-) Can't fit 3 major arcs in one book right? (atleast I would assume rescue of Moiraine won't be minor arc).

[Bob T Dwarf]

I said he handled his newfound responsibilities and superpowers with an incredible amount of humility and a surprising amount of acceptance.

 

I never said he lost his "troublemaker" status.

 

Namely, that he's also a loveable, hilarious dumbass.

 

Ahhhh, well, we agree then.  Glad we got that cleared up.

[Ishmayl]

 

What we have here is existence and anti-existence.  Crank up the ole CK, even to half-power balefire and you've got a lot of anti-existence.  It's enough of a jolt that the whole Age Lace does a conga, but did you notice there was no actual blast, or physical shock/heat-wave?

 

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

Hrm... did we read the same passage?  (following paragraphs from page 574 slightly paraphrased)

 

And then, with a sound like a sigh, he released it.  A column of pure whiteness exploded from him and burned across the silent night sky... It was beautiful.

 

And then it was gone.  Burned from the landscape - and the Pattern - as if it had never been there...

 

Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them - still lit by the glowing access key in Rand's hand - seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself was groaning in agony.

 

It snapped back, but Min could still feel the tension...

(Emphasis mine)

 

Seems to me to show the very epitome of a "reaction" to the existence vs. anti-existence.  Since we're talking magic in nature, obviously it's not going to be the same thing as if covered by physics, but the bolded section above seems pretty clear to me that there was a reaction - both spiritual and physical, in the world and in the Pattern - and it was a major reaction.

 

Just sayin'...

[SinisterDeath]

 

What we have here is existence and anti-existence.  Crank up the ole CK, even to half-power balefire and you've got a lot of anti-existence.  It's enough of a jolt that the whole Age Lace does a conga, but did you notice there was no actual blast, or physical shock/heat-wave?

 

Nature is supposed to abhor a vacuum, too, so where are the physical effects of creating a hole in reality where a large palace used to be?  Should at least be a huge thunderclap and associated wind as air rushes to fill that vacuum.

 

Hrm... did we read the same passage?  (following paragraphs from page 574 slightly paraphrased)

 

And then, with a sound like a sigh, he released it.  A column of pure whiteness exploded from him and burned across the silent night sky... It was beautiful.

 

And then it was gone.  Burned from the landscape - and the Pattern - as if it had never been there...

 

Something hit Min, something like a shocking wave in the air.  It wasn't a physical blast, and it didn't make her stumble, but it twisted her insides about.  The forest around them - still lit by the glowing access key in Rand's hand - seemed to warp and shake.  It was as if the world itself was groaning in agony.

 

It snapped back, but Min could still feel the tension...

(Emphasis mine)

 

Seems to me to show the very epitome of a "reaction" to the existence vs. anti-existence.  Since we're talking magic in nature, obviously it's not going to be the same thing as if covered by physics, but the bolded section above seems pretty clear to me that there was a reaction - both spiritual and physical, in the world and in the Pattern - and it was a major reaction.

 

Just sayin'...

 

String Theory + Quantum Mechanics + A weapon that destroys something before it actually hits it, before you actually see it destroyed, before you even rememberd seeing it. But still, because of those rules, you only see that it was there, then not.

 

Pattern = string theory. Pluck a thread, shake off the info thats on it, and thats what happens.

Course this 'event' was no where near what happened in book 11, where some experienced 'outer-body'experiences...